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1
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Cold Night - Clear Skies (photo)
« on: January 03, 2012, 10:26:01 PM »
Just a little long exposure silhouette I took for fun tonight (and froze my face off doing it).
Around 20 here tonight and due to be a stupid 60 again by Saturday. What a screwy winter here in Virginia.
Night!
- Aaron
Around 20 here tonight and due to be a stupid 60 again by Saturday. What a screwy winter here in Virginia.
Night!
- Aaron
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Chimney significantly smokes when idle - air leak?
« on: December 11, 2011, 11:11:47 AM »
Everyone says there should be nothing more than a wisp of smoke - if that - coming out of an idling Heatmor 200 CSS. We're in our second season and our furnace has always had vastly more than a wisp from the day it was installed. It's not a thick column - more like a Halloween-esque witch's cauldron spilling from the chimney whenever it's idle. 
I can't seem to find the source if this is, in fact, a problem. The blower seems fine and the flap on it appears to close properly when I test it. The door seal seems undamaged, but I'm not sure how to test it further. The spring-loaded panel that covers the ARD tube seems fine. My dealer told me to put a wad of steel wool in the ARD tube, but the first time I did that I just about got set on fire by the flames that rolled out the door. The steel wool came out pretty fast after that.
The furnace sits on a concrete pad, has all the sand in it that was required and is even silicone caulked all around its base.
I've wondered if adding four feet of proper twist-lock chimney and a spark arrestor on top would help matters... but I've just finished reading a thread where several people who added chimney actually saw increased draw that worsened the problem.
Any thoughts?
- Aaron
NOTE: Let me add that, when idle and smoking, I never open the door to a low burning fire. In fact, it often takes a moment to see any coals start to glow due to the air from the open door.
I can't seem to find the source if this is, in fact, a problem. The blower seems fine and the flap on it appears to close properly when I test it. The door seal seems undamaged, but I'm not sure how to test it further. The spring-loaded panel that covers the ARD tube seems fine. My dealer told me to put a wad of steel wool in the ARD tube, but the first time I did that I just about got set on fire by the flames that rolled out the door. The steel wool came out pretty fast after that.
The furnace sits on a concrete pad, has all the sand in it that was required and is even silicone caulked all around its base.
I've wondered if adding four feet of proper twist-lock chimney and a spark arrestor on top would help matters... but I've just finished reading a thread where several people who added chimney actually saw increased draw that worsened the problem.
Any thoughts?
- Aaron
NOTE: Let me add that, when idle and smoking, I never open the door to a low burning fire. In fact, it often takes a moment to see any coals start to glow due to the air from the open door.
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / LONG saga and related questions: plumbing, wood sizes and burn cycles
« on: December 11, 2011, 10:36:11 AM »
This is our second season with our Heatmor 200 CSS. We installed it in somewhat of a hurry last year after abandoning the propane that was costing an obscene amount of money. When I say obscene, I mean that one year of propane paid for the furnace itself. I suspect that got your attention.
The house is early 1900's, 10.5 ft ceilings, just under 3,000 square feet, two huge fireplaces (I keep chimney balloons in them 99% of the time to minimize heat loss) and a mixed bag on insulation. Our twenty-seven, seven foot high windows are modern replacements that are quite efficient, but our insulation is older blown stuff in the attic and we have balloon walls. We have huge cast iron radiators that were steam when we had the propane boiler, but are also water-capable. So we switched to circulated hot water to accommodate the Heatmor and retired the propane furnace entirely last year.
Our original installers last fall did a horrible job (this is not a Heatmor or dealer problem - they were a clueless couple of private HVAC guys I stupidly hired that took us for a ride). This included everything from putting our pumps on backwards to providing almost NO support to the tens of feet of 1.25" black iron pipe in the basement that tie into our radiator system. They just suspended the new pipes on top of the old, pre-existing pipes of the radiator system, etc. I am amazed I was never awoken in the night to the sound of rending metal as hundreds of pounds of water-filled pipe tore off the basement ceiling.
A tremendously capable builder/renovator friend of mine came to our rescue and redid the furnace-side plumbing. We weren't in a position to address the basement plumbing mess at that point. That got us up and running the weekend of Thanksgiving last year and we finally had heat (after a solid month of using electric space heaters in key rooms and the rest of the house in the 50's).
Our biggest problem last season was that the original design had the two thermostat-called circulator pumps running the water directly through the radiators and back to the furnace. When the cycle would start, the impact on the furnace was massive with all of that room-temperature water from over a dozen radiators dumping into the furnace. The needle on the furnace gauge easily dropped 70 degrees and a huge burn cycle would start.
Worst of all, we had water level and pressure problems. In a nutshell, I think the water in the radiators - sitting several feet above the level of the furnace (which is a good 70 feet from the house), would rush "downhill" to equalize. If you topped off the furnace, this situation caused it to push water out of the Heatmor's overflow pipe on the top repeatedly after the pumps would stop. Once it "balanced out" to the point that it wasn't forcing water from the top, I think the end result was less water in the Heatmor than it should have had. This led to overtemps during the burn cycle followed, of course, by huge drops in heat when the system was called and all that cool water came rushing in again. Radiators, of course, also require periodic bleeding to get air out, etc., that undoubtedly added to the furnace-side hassles.
We made it through the season, though, with a warm house but a lot of wood cutting and loading. Still, we spent less on wood for the whole season than a single month of propane AND we had endless hot water in the showers. Our electric bill was cut in half from the hot water heater savings. Wood was a mixture of stuff: a huge Ash tree we had taken down late in the summer (it was dead in the top and threatening the house) and various loads I bought from some local suppliers. Some of the wood I bought was large, minimally split hardwood that was heavy, but loaded decently. In January, I had a logging truck delivery of 16-18ft hardwood in 10-14" diameters that I sawed up on my own - by far the most cost-effective source dollar-wise, but not effort-wise. I cut it into short rounds based on what I could reasonably lift... but cramming those in the furnace was a bit of a workout and not something the wife was going to comfortably be doing. I have no gripes about the exercise, but I'm a programmer/network admin who gets his cardio workouts on a bike... so this seasonal amateur logging operation is likely a future back injury in the making.
We decided to correct the major problems this fall before the season started. We split the furnace and house into two separate circuits. The two feeds from our furnace cycle through two new heat exchangers in the basement. This puts the furnace on a much smaller capacity loop that never touches the radiators directly. Furnace water levels have been perfect since doing this. The donut-shaped bladder in the Heatmor always has water and a varying amount of pressure in it depending on the water temperature (hot and idle vs. initial start of a cycle).
The other side of the exchangers is a closed loop of just the radiators with a couple of small expansion tanks (which I don't know were even really necessary) and another pair of circulator pumps. We initially tried running the furnace pumps 24/7, but that failed miserably. Turns out that the constantly cycling hot water from the furnace transferring heat across the exchangers to the house loop caused the hot water to rise into the radiators, drawing cool water behind it that kept the furnace going almost constantly. The house kept getting hotter and hotter - a good five degrees beyond the cutoff on the thermostat - and the burning outside was nearly constant. So we switched to having the thermostat turn on all four pumps when it calls for heat. When it satisfies, all the pumps stop and the furnace is free to heat itself back to idle until the house calls for it again.
All of the plumbing in the basement was also redone. The miles of black iron pipe are now insulated and properly hung with pipe hangers so strong that you can literally do pull-ups on them. No more new pipe draped every which way over the older pipes. It looks like a professional HVAC facility in our basement (both in scale and quality of the work). My same perfectionist friend that saved us last year was hired to do this and it took the two of us a solid week to do it right. The results could not be more of an improvement. I will post some photos if people are interested.
Last season I also set the thermostat on a day/evening/night schedule with the usual higher and lower temps in an attempt to be efficient. I think, honestly, that those multi-degree drops put even more stress on the furnace and the burn cycles. I could be wrong, though. This season I've just set the thermostat on a comfortable temperature and left it 24/7. When the thermostat loses one degree, it calls for heat and, on average, I don't think I hear the pumps run for more than about 3- 5 minutes before the house is satisfied. The furnace burns for a while beyond the end of the cycle, of course, and gets back to idle. Mix and repeat. The colder it is, the more often we have these cycles - but they are all quite short from the thermostat's perspective.
So, if you're still alive after reading all of the crap above, here are some questions I have:
1) I'm interested in any general opinions on our old (direct) vs. new (exchanger) configuration and whether it sounds like we did it right. I feel like the system is running more efficiently this way and, above all, feel it's going to be easier to maintain by having the house and furnace on separate loops.
2) Am I wrong in assuming that the constant temperature approach is, in this particular system, a better approach? Or should I be doing the usual day/evening/night cycles with the thermostat? Technically, it should be day/night since someone is almost always home making sleeping hours the only time we might tolerate it being much cooler. The house is MUCH more comfortable and constant this way, too. The radiators tend to stay at least warm to the touch most of the time and never seem to need to be piping hot.
3) Related to question #2: are the short burn cycles of this constant setting preferable to the long, harder burns that come from a 2 or more degree drop in the house and re-heating cool-to-the-touch radiators?
4) I know this is talked about a lot elsewhere, but I'm very curious about wood sizes, etc., in relation of the above questions. Until I get more into gathering and stockpiling my own wood during the year, I am buying loads of various kinds. Most suppliers around here bring seasoned, split, indoor-wood-stove-sized oak. This stuff almost feels like kindling to me compared to the massive logs of last year - but it's seriously easy to load (wife-friendly!) and does burn hot as hell. Yes, a load of it does burn down to just coals over the course of a 20-degree night. But is this smaller, easier-to-load and hot-burning wood a good fit to these shorter cycle burns, or am I better off going back to the heavier rounds? Whatever the case, the guy who brought my current load of comically small 18" split oak toothpicks is going to bring me 24" lengths with fewer splits (more halves, some smaller wholes and quartering only the largest pieces). I'm hoping this will be a nice compromise between burning time/efficiency and preventing my first back injury. Thoughts?
5) What IS the proper moisture level I should be looking for in the wood sizes I'm talking about? I have a moisture meter that shows me between 20% - 30% on randomly sampled pieces in this most recent delivery. Are moisture meter measurements pretty consistent and reliable across devices? The Heatmor manual cites precisely this range, but I want to know that my meter's reading is consistent with their means of measuring. Granted, the Heatmor manual has a tendency to piss me off with its ability to confuse, contradict itself and completely not address other questions I tend to have.
My moisture meter: http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-MMD4E-Digital-Moisture/dp/B00275F5O2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323624785&sr=8-1.
I'm sorry for the length of this message, but I wanted to tell a full story. I have a lot more questions and any replies I get will likely spur more. I also realize that the reality of what is "right" in the details is what works best for the owner. Is my house warm? Yes. Am I comfortable with how often I load it and how much effort or cost I put into obtaining and loading the furnace? While everyone will find their own comfort level, I want to be sure I'm being at least being sensible on the bigger issues. Input from the experienced and helpful OWB owners on this forum has always been appreciated!
Thanks!
- Aaron
Sweet Briar, Va
The house is early 1900's, 10.5 ft ceilings, just under 3,000 square feet, two huge fireplaces (I keep chimney balloons in them 99% of the time to minimize heat loss) and a mixed bag on insulation. Our twenty-seven, seven foot high windows are modern replacements that are quite efficient, but our insulation is older blown stuff in the attic and we have balloon walls. We have huge cast iron radiators that were steam when we had the propane boiler, but are also water-capable. So we switched to circulated hot water to accommodate the Heatmor and retired the propane furnace entirely last year.
Our original installers last fall did a horrible job (this is not a Heatmor or dealer problem - they were a clueless couple of private HVAC guys I stupidly hired that took us for a ride). This included everything from putting our pumps on backwards to providing almost NO support to the tens of feet of 1.25" black iron pipe in the basement that tie into our radiator system. They just suspended the new pipes on top of the old, pre-existing pipes of the radiator system, etc. I am amazed I was never awoken in the night to the sound of rending metal as hundreds of pounds of water-filled pipe tore off the basement ceiling.
A tremendously capable builder/renovator friend of mine came to our rescue and redid the furnace-side plumbing. We weren't in a position to address the basement plumbing mess at that point. That got us up and running the weekend of Thanksgiving last year and we finally had heat (after a solid month of using electric space heaters in key rooms and the rest of the house in the 50's).
Our biggest problem last season was that the original design had the two thermostat-called circulator pumps running the water directly through the radiators and back to the furnace. When the cycle would start, the impact on the furnace was massive with all of that room-temperature water from over a dozen radiators dumping into the furnace. The needle on the furnace gauge easily dropped 70 degrees and a huge burn cycle would start.
Worst of all, we had water level and pressure problems. In a nutshell, I think the water in the radiators - sitting several feet above the level of the furnace (which is a good 70 feet from the house), would rush "downhill" to equalize. If you topped off the furnace, this situation caused it to push water out of the Heatmor's overflow pipe on the top repeatedly after the pumps would stop. Once it "balanced out" to the point that it wasn't forcing water from the top, I think the end result was less water in the Heatmor than it should have had. This led to overtemps during the burn cycle followed, of course, by huge drops in heat when the system was called and all that cool water came rushing in again. Radiators, of course, also require periodic bleeding to get air out, etc., that undoubtedly added to the furnace-side hassles.
We made it through the season, though, with a warm house but a lot of wood cutting and loading. Still, we spent less on wood for the whole season than a single month of propane AND we had endless hot water in the showers. Our electric bill was cut in half from the hot water heater savings. Wood was a mixture of stuff: a huge Ash tree we had taken down late in the summer (it was dead in the top and threatening the house) and various loads I bought from some local suppliers. Some of the wood I bought was large, minimally split hardwood that was heavy, but loaded decently. In January, I had a logging truck delivery of 16-18ft hardwood in 10-14" diameters that I sawed up on my own - by far the most cost-effective source dollar-wise, but not effort-wise. I cut it into short rounds based on what I could reasonably lift... but cramming those in the furnace was a bit of a workout and not something the wife was going to comfortably be doing. I have no gripes about the exercise, but I'm a programmer/network admin who gets his cardio workouts on a bike... so this seasonal amateur logging operation is likely a future back injury in the making.
We decided to correct the major problems this fall before the season started. We split the furnace and house into two separate circuits. The two feeds from our furnace cycle through two new heat exchangers in the basement. This puts the furnace on a much smaller capacity loop that never touches the radiators directly. Furnace water levels have been perfect since doing this. The donut-shaped bladder in the Heatmor always has water and a varying amount of pressure in it depending on the water temperature (hot and idle vs. initial start of a cycle).
The other side of the exchangers is a closed loop of just the radiators with a couple of small expansion tanks (which I don't know were even really necessary) and another pair of circulator pumps. We initially tried running the furnace pumps 24/7, but that failed miserably. Turns out that the constantly cycling hot water from the furnace transferring heat across the exchangers to the house loop caused the hot water to rise into the radiators, drawing cool water behind it that kept the furnace going almost constantly. The house kept getting hotter and hotter - a good five degrees beyond the cutoff on the thermostat - and the burning outside was nearly constant. So we switched to having the thermostat turn on all four pumps when it calls for heat. When it satisfies, all the pumps stop and the furnace is free to heat itself back to idle until the house calls for it again.
All of the plumbing in the basement was also redone. The miles of black iron pipe are now insulated and properly hung with pipe hangers so strong that you can literally do pull-ups on them. No more new pipe draped every which way over the older pipes. It looks like a professional HVAC facility in our basement (both in scale and quality of the work). My same perfectionist friend that saved us last year was hired to do this and it took the two of us a solid week to do it right. The results could not be more of an improvement. I will post some photos if people are interested.
Last season I also set the thermostat on a day/evening/night schedule with the usual higher and lower temps in an attempt to be efficient. I think, honestly, that those multi-degree drops put even more stress on the furnace and the burn cycles. I could be wrong, though. This season I've just set the thermostat on a comfortable temperature and left it 24/7. When the thermostat loses one degree, it calls for heat and, on average, I don't think I hear the pumps run for more than about 3- 5 minutes before the house is satisfied. The furnace burns for a while beyond the end of the cycle, of course, and gets back to idle. Mix and repeat. The colder it is, the more often we have these cycles - but they are all quite short from the thermostat's perspective.
So, if you're still alive after reading all of the crap above, here are some questions I have:
1) I'm interested in any general opinions on our old (direct) vs. new (exchanger) configuration and whether it sounds like we did it right. I feel like the system is running more efficiently this way and, above all, feel it's going to be easier to maintain by having the house and furnace on separate loops.
2) Am I wrong in assuming that the constant temperature approach is, in this particular system, a better approach? Or should I be doing the usual day/evening/night cycles with the thermostat? Technically, it should be day/night since someone is almost always home making sleeping hours the only time we might tolerate it being much cooler. The house is MUCH more comfortable and constant this way, too. The radiators tend to stay at least warm to the touch most of the time and never seem to need to be piping hot.
3) Related to question #2: are the short burn cycles of this constant setting preferable to the long, harder burns that come from a 2 or more degree drop in the house and re-heating cool-to-the-touch radiators?
4) I know this is talked about a lot elsewhere, but I'm very curious about wood sizes, etc., in relation of the above questions. Until I get more into gathering and stockpiling my own wood during the year, I am buying loads of various kinds. Most suppliers around here bring seasoned, split, indoor-wood-stove-sized oak. This stuff almost feels like kindling to me compared to the massive logs of last year - but it's seriously easy to load (wife-friendly!) and does burn hot as hell. Yes, a load of it does burn down to just coals over the course of a 20-degree night. But is this smaller, easier-to-load and hot-burning wood a good fit to these shorter cycle burns, or am I better off going back to the heavier rounds? Whatever the case, the guy who brought my current load of comically small 18" split oak toothpicks is going to bring me 24" lengths with fewer splits (more halves, some smaller wholes and quartering only the largest pieces). I'm hoping this will be a nice compromise between burning time/efficiency and preventing my first back injury.
Thoughts?5) What IS the proper moisture level I should be looking for in the wood sizes I'm talking about? I have a moisture meter that shows me between 20% - 30% on randomly sampled pieces in this most recent delivery. Are moisture meter measurements pretty consistent and reliable across devices? The Heatmor manual cites precisely this range, but I want to know that my meter's reading is consistent with their means of measuring. Granted, the Heatmor manual has a tendency to piss me off with its ability to confuse, contradict itself and completely not address other questions I tend to have.
My moisture meter: http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-MMD4E-Digital-Moisture/dp/B00275F5O2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323624785&sr=8-1.
I'm sorry for the length of this message, but I wanted to tell a full story. I have a lot more questions and any replies I get will likely spur more. I also realize that the reality of what is "right" in the details is what works best for the owner. Is my house warm? Yes. Am I comfortable with how often I load it and how much effort or cost I put into obtaining and loading the furnace? While everyone will find their own comfort level, I want to be sure I'm being at least being sensible on the bigger issues. Input from the experienced and helpful OWB owners on this forum has always been appreciated!
Thanks!
- Aaron
Sweet Briar, Va
4
Heatmor / Proper Heatmor 200CSS Chimney Extension
« on: February 20, 2011, 07:25:42 AM »Hello!
For this first season, I've been using some regular, cheap chimney extension pipe and have already had it start to disintegrate. I've been planning to put the proper, high quality pipe on it that twist-lock mates with the top of the furnace's existing stub of a chimney. The Heatmor documentation doesn't cite a product number, brand name, etc., and just leaves the topic as a vague "contact your dealer" issue. As far away as my dealer is located, I'd rather just determine the proper type and buy it from the lowest priced source I can find (online or off).
While the high prices here really took me by surprise, the DuraTech insulated extensions look to me like the right stuff. The twist-lock interconnects on it look exactly like what I see on our furnace. Does this look correct for a Heatmor 200CSS?
http://www.northlineexpress.com/multiple_items.asp?cc=8SPDuratech
Finally, does anyone have any opinions on the use of caps and spark arrestors? I've seen enough sparks come out of my chimney sometimes to worry me when it gets seriously dry and windy (like it has been off and on this past week... already brush fires all over our region).
The pricing on this stuff is kind of crazy, but if it's the right kind, performs well and is going to last me for ages... I'll bite the bullet. Just want to be sure it's the right stuff.
Oh, and they only sell shorter lengths in black. I'd like 48" or so, I think, and that's cheaper in the galvanized lengths. Can I spray it black with any kind of paint that will hold up to the heat and weather?
Thanks!
- Aaron
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Wow... just... wow.
« on: January 21, 2011, 07:43:07 AM »
I've been a fan of ThereIFixedIt.com for a while, but hadn't dug back into their archives much. My wife, however, happened upon this by accident today while doing some Google'ing.
Maybe this has shown up on the forums before... if so, apologies.
Wonder what the specs are on this thing.
Attached and embedded.
Enjoy!
- Aaron
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
Maybe this has shown up on the forums before... if so, apologies.
Wonder what the specs are on this thing.
Attached and embedded.
Enjoy!
- Aaron
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
6
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Unsplit Wood Lengths - Heatmor
« on: January 03, 2011, 04:57:32 PM »
Hello!
Happy New Year to everyone.
Had my first load of unsplit "pole wood" (I think that's the term) delivered this past weekend (attaching a few pictures below). Mostly white oak, dropped around late spring and summer. I did this partly because it's more economical, and mostly because the majority of the advice I've received suggests that unsplit logs with a 6-8" diameter and a bit on the greener side will give me a good, long, hot burn per loading.
I'm getting a better handle on mixing the various woods I have - split and unsplit, seasoned and greener... oak, ash, and a little smattering of some pine... to get different burn cycles out of our Heatmor 200CSS. I load it with various mixtures depending on the weather, if I want it heating faster or burning slower with fewer loadings, etc. I'm new to it, but I'm beginning to see the art and science of it all.
So as I cut up these trees that were delivered, I have to decide on lengths. The first two trees I cut tonight I sawed at 24" and, being 8" or so in diameter, are pretty damn heavy (hey, I'm a network engineer, programmer and freelance photographer - not Mr. Brawny lumberjack guy). I can move them around, but they aren't the easiest thing to toss into the furnace and I don't need to be running a risk of pulling something or fouling up my back in some manner.
My question is whether more manageable 16" lengths might make more sense. I can toss a row into the back, then a row in front to match and stacking on top of those a layer or so. That would be almost like having a 32" log, only divided in the middle. How would that work in terms of burning efficiency, etc? Too tight (it's a 36" deep firebox)? Maybe just 18" logs stacked in the back and some other stuff in the front?
Does it make sense to load the furnace with a tight stack like this or is it best for things to be more random with appreciable gaps for airflow, etc?
Might be overthinking this, but I'd just like to hear what others do to get the most efficient performance without killing themselves.
The photos are of the wood delivery and a shot of my furnace loaded with the split oak I've been using prior to this new delivery.
Thanks!
- Aaron
http://halfpress.com/
http://photos.halfpress.com
Happy New Year to everyone.
Had my first load of unsplit "pole wood" (I think that's the term) delivered this past weekend (attaching a few pictures below). Mostly white oak, dropped around late spring and summer. I did this partly because it's more economical, and mostly because the majority of the advice I've received suggests that unsplit logs with a 6-8" diameter and a bit on the greener side will give me a good, long, hot burn per loading.
I'm getting a better handle on mixing the various woods I have - split and unsplit, seasoned and greener... oak, ash, and a little smattering of some pine... to get different burn cycles out of our Heatmor 200CSS. I load it with various mixtures depending on the weather, if I want it heating faster or burning slower with fewer loadings, etc. I'm new to it, but I'm beginning to see the art and science of it all.
So as I cut up these trees that were delivered, I have to decide on lengths. The first two trees I cut tonight I sawed at 24" and, being 8" or so in diameter, are pretty damn heavy (hey, I'm a network engineer, programmer and freelance photographer - not Mr. Brawny lumberjack guy).
I can move them around, but they aren't the easiest thing to toss into the furnace and I don't need to be running a risk of pulling something or fouling up my back in some manner. My question is whether more manageable 16" lengths might make more sense. I can toss a row into the back, then a row in front to match and stacking on top of those a layer or so. That would be almost like having a 32" log, only divided in the middle. How would that work in terms of burning efficiency, etc? Too tight (it's a 36" deep firebox)? Maybe just 18" logs stacked in the back and some other stuff in the front?
Does it make sense to load the furnace with a tight stack like this or is it best for things to be more random with appreciable gaps for airflow, etc?
Might be overthinking this, but I'd just like to hear what others do to get the most efficient performance without killing themselves.
The photos are of the wood delivery and a shot of my furnace loaded with the split oak I've been using prior to this new delivery.
Thanks!
- Aaron
http://halfpress.com/
http://photos.halfpress.com
7
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / A Few Thermostat and Efficiency Questions
« on: December 18, 2010, 08:13:22 PM »I was curious what kinds of thermostats folks are using with their wood furnaces and how they configure them. My furnace is a Heatmor 200CSS.
Being the geek that I am, my thermostat is a digital Trane/Schlage Z-Wave-capable thermostat that I can monitor and set via the Internet (also have an iPhone app that tells me what's up, lets me adjust it from anywhere, etc - all driven by a MiCasaVerde Vera 2 home controller). Granted, much of what these thermostats do is disabled since it's simply an on/off setting based on temperature... no second stage or cooling, etc., in my case.
I have a couple of questions that might or might not be wood furnace-unique:
- Is it better to set the thermostat to one desired temp and leave it 24/7, therefore calling the pumps as soon as it drops one degree below? Or should I run it warmer in the morning, cooler in the day, warmer again in the evening and then a good bit cooler during the sleeping hours? I want to know if it significantly impacts the amount of wood I go through for it maintain a set temp vs. losing several degrees during the night and having a big hill to climb come morning.
- Assuming the answer is that a set temperature 24/7 is more efficient - how much does that chosen temperature matter? If my house holds the heat fairly well and there is often quite a bit of time between the thermostat calling the pumps... does it require a lot more wood to keep it at 72 constantly versus, say, 68? I realize it would take effort to boost it up from 68 to 72 initially... but if I'm boosting it every time the thermostat drops one degree, does holding 72 take a lot more than holding 68?
Maybe these are inane questions, but coming from a propane steam boiler and keeping the same cast iron radiators definitely presents efficiency questions for me. I want the best balance of comfort and efficiency - which means how much wood I have to buy and how often I have to load it.
Love to hear any comments people have on their thermostat configs, how they run their system, etc., and especially anything unique to a wood furnace in this regard.
Thanks!
- Aaron
8
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / New Heatmor: Radiator Pressure(?) Issues - Losing Water :(
« on: December 10, 2010, 08:11:43 AM »
We've been going through a major ordeal with the installation of our new Heatmor 200CSS for the last month. The bulk of the ordeal was hiring some guys to do the install that seemed fine at first (one even owns a Heatmor), but who clearly didn't know what they were doing. It's a long and sordid story that I won't recount here since it's, for the most part, irrelevant now. I hired someone else to undo what they screwed up and we've got heat now. We're not bug-free yet, though, and I was hoping for some insight from the group here in addition to the research my dealer is currently doing.
In a nutshell, our system is a 200CSS on a concrete pad about 65 ft from the house and only slightly downhill. The top of the furnace is probably roughly at the level of the pipes inside the basement under the floor (single story with unheated attic). Our house is close to 100 years old and we have cast iron radiators (about 18 of them, I think). The system was formerly steam with a propane boiler that was costing us a fortune, hence the switch to a wood furnace this fall. This also meant moving the radiators from steam to water which they are capable of since they are the two-pipe design (feed on the top of one end, return on the bottom and parallel paths across through the columns).
First off, we knew we needed to add bleeder valves to the radiators and we fought through that hell. They had screws painted and sealed into the hole where the bleeders would go and it took a LOT of work (heating with a torch, etc) to get those out. Ultimately, they all came out fine with the threads intact and we put little key-turn (with a slotted screw head) bleeders in each one. They seem to work fine since we can bleed off air when the pumps are running and, after some bit of air (if any), water comes out in a steady stream or jet. We also opened the little contraption on the return end near the floor on each radiator and removed the old steam-related condensation trap mechanisms.
The feed into our house is a bit large. When the HVAC guys first looked at our old system, they saw that the head pipe from the old furnace was 2.5" in diameter. It T'ed toward the front and back of the house where the pipes step down fairly quickly to 1" and/or 3/4" pipes that go up into the radiators and out from the radiator returns. They felt they needed to meet that with 2.5" of water volume (this is an issue in serious contention now since in a closed, zero pressure system, I didn't think we had such issues once the system is full and the circulators are running). Whatever the case, the 200CSS has a pair of pumps mounted on its supply that connect to two 1.25" PEX feeds into the basement (that stuff alone was a huge holdup in our install since nobody has fittings, tools, etc., without special order). I thought they were going to combine those 1.25" into one 2.5" source of water right into the main 2.5" cast iron pipe from the radiator system. Instead, they ultimately took the T'ed segment of that 2.5" pipe out making it what would seem to be two separate radiator circuits in our house. They feed each of the two 1.25" PEX lines right into separate 2.5" lines which go on to step down and feed the radiators. There are, of course, two 1.25" PEX returns to the furnace to match these feeds. The cast iron original feed lines in the house run a loop and the radiators come off of them in separate feed and return lines, so valving off and one or more radiators in the house doesn't stop the flow downstream to others.
So, long and short of it, is that we'd appear to have two 1.25" PEX feeds going into what would seem to be two separate loops in the house radiator-wise, each with their own 1.25" PEX return to the furnace. I'm quite certain now that these two separate loops do cross over somewhere in the plumbing under the house since it is possible to push water into one feed at the furnace (using a garden hose) and, ultimately, get water out of both return line boiler drains. Whether this potential crossover inside is a problem or not, I don't know.
ANYWAY... for over a week now we've been running it and it is heating the house pretty well. No real complaints there. Here is our problem:
We keep losing water. I've had someone go through all of the crawl spaces under the house and they found absolutely NO leaks in the radiator plumbing. No damp spots. No water. No weeping. Just old, heavy, solid pipes with fittings you'd probably never get apart. This part of the system seems to be intact.
We had some leaks in the feed valves of the old radiators at first (they were ancient), but all of the leakers have since been replaced with new brass radiator valves and they seem fine. The old ones that didn't leak seem to still be intact. We've seen NO signs of water in the house on any part of a radiator after those replacements went in. Not on the floors, at the connections, etc. They, too, seem intact.
But the Heatmor bladder keeps going flat a day or so after topping it off and I can begin to hear gurgles in the radiators when the pumps stop or start. When the system is first topped off and the bladder is at a proper volume, anytime the pumps stop (thermostat satisfied or switched off manually) water comes out the pipe on the roof of the furnace. This will happen repeatedly as the pumps stop throughout the next 12 or more hours until, I suppose, enough water has come out that this doesn't happen anymore. By this point, though, the bladder stays flat all the time and I'm quite sure we've got less than proper water leading to possible boil-offs, overtemps, etc.
If the pumps are running, I can bleed all the radiators and, after a top-off of the Heatmor, get very little air out and almost immediate water from the bleeder valves. I discovered the other night that if I open those bleeders with the pumps off, the hissing I am hearing (which will go a LONG time) appears to be water being sucked into the radiator rather than bled out. So, obviously, I've stopped doing that. I now only bleed them (mostly to test the system) when the pumps are running at the furnace.
We had one radiator whose valve hadn't been replaced at first and it hissed all the time. In retrospect the other day, I realized it might have been sucking air in as much as anything. It has since been replaced and is now quiet. That radiator, too, has no bleeder on it due to a cramped space (no room for the valve). Even now with a new feed valve on it, I can hear it making trickling/tinkling noises inside faintly. I suspect it has a great deal of air - even though it heats up pretty well - that has never been bled off. I am tempted to shut that radiator off entirely or even remove it and cap off the feed and return pipes (as we've done with one other in the house).
So, in summary, no matter what I do, we seem to keep losing water and I suspect it's all coming out the top of the Heatmor rather than from a leak somewhere. The suggestion from the dealer right now is that we have an air leak somewhere (?) that is allowing pressure to keep building and blowing the water out of the furnace. If we do, I've not found it. I also have a hard time imaging we have an air leak if water wouldn't come out in a visible way when the pumps are on or even off. Thus far, we've found NO leaks of water... so how would we get leaks of air? Maybe a leaky bleeder valve that isn't losing water? If so, would I not hear that air sucking in with close inspection?
This is getting pretty frustrating, so I'm hoping someone with a wood furnace and old cast iron radiators might share their experience and point out something we might be doing wrong. If anyone else has ideas on how to test our system or changes we can make (hopefully minimal) to get this thing running right, we'd be forever grateful.
Sorry for the overly long post, but there is a lot to the story. I can answer any questions anyone might have, too, if I've overlooked a detail here that is useful.
Thanks!
- Aaron
Sweet Briar, Va
In a nutshell, our system is a 200CSS on a concrete pad about 65 ft from the house and only slightly downhill. The top of the furnace is probably roughly at the level of the pipes inside the basement under the floor (single story with unheated attic). Our house is close to 100 years old and we have cast iron radiators (about 18 of them, I think). The system was formerly steam with a propane boiler that was costing us a fortune, hence the switch to a wood furnace this fall. This also meant moving the radiators from steam to water which they are capable of since they are the two-pipe design (feed on the top of one end, return on the bottom and parallel paths across through the columns).
First off, we knew we needed to add bleeder valves to the radiators and we fought through that hell. They had screws painted and sealed into the hole where the bleeders would go and it took a LOT of work (heating with a torch, etc) to get those out. Ultimately, they all came out fine with the threads intact and we put little key-turn (with a slotted screw head) bleeders in each one. They seem to work fine since we can bleed off air when the pumps are running and, after some bit of air (if any), water comes out in a steady stream or jet. We also opened the little contraption on the return end near the floor on each radiator and removed the old steam-related condensation trap mechanisms.
The feed into our house is a bit large. When the HVAC guys first looked at our old system, they saw that the head pipe from the old furnace was 2.5" in diameter. It T'ed toward the front and back of the house where the pipes step down fairly quickly to 1" and/or 3/4" pipes that go up into the radiators and out from the radiator returns. They felt they needed to meet that with 2.5" of water volume (this is an issue in serious contention now since in a closed, zero pressure system, I didn't think we had such issues once the system is full and the circulators are running). Whatever the case, the 200CSS has a pair of pumps mounted on its supply that connect to two 1.25" PEX feeds into the basement (that stuff alone was a huge holdup in our install since nobody has fittings, tools, etc., without special order). I thought they were going to combine those 1.25" into one 2.5" source of water right into the main 2.5" cast iron pipe from the radiator system. Instead, they ultimately took the T'ed segment of that 2.5" pipe out making it what would seem to be two separate radiator circuits in our house. They feed each of the two 1.25" PEX lines right into separate 2.5" lines which go on to step down and feed the radiators. There are, of course, two 1.25" PEX returns to the furnace to match these feeds. The cast iron original feed lines in the house run a loop and the radiators come off of them in separate feed and return lines, so valving off and one or more radiators in the house doesn't stop the flow downstream to others.
So, long and short of it, is that we'd appear to have two 1.25" PEX feeds going into what would seem to be two separate loops in the house radiator-wise, each with their own 1.25" PEX return to the furnace. I'm quite certain now that these two separate loops do cross over somewhere in the plumbing under the house since it is possible to push water into one feed at the furnace (using a garden hose) and, ultimately, get water out of both return line boiler drains. Whether this potential crossover inside is a problem or not, I don't know.
ANYWAY... for over a week now we've been running it and it is heating the house pretty well. No real complaints there. Here is our problem:
We keep losing water. I've had someone go through all of the crawl spaces under the house and they found absolutely NO leaks in the radiator plumbing. No damp spots. No water. No weeping. Just old, heavy, solid pipes with fittings you'd probably never get apart. This part of the system seems to be intact.
We had some leaks in the feed valves of the old radiators at first (they were ancient), but all of the leakers have since been replaced with new brass radiator valves and they seem fine. The old ones that didn't leak seem to still be intact. We've seen NO signs of water in the house on any part of a radiator after those replacements went in. Not on the floors, at the connections, etc. They, too, seem intact.
But the Heatmor bladder keeps going flat a day or so after topping it off and I can begin to hear gurgles in the radiators when the pumps stop or start. When the system is first topped off and the bladder is at a proper volume, anytime the pumps stop (thermostat satisfied or switched off manually) water comes out the pipe on the roof of the furnace. This will happen repeatedly as the pumps stop throughout the next 12 or more hours until, I suppose, enough water has come out that this doesn't happen anymore. By this point, though, the bladder stays flat all the time and I'm quite sure we've got less than proper water leading to possible boil-offs, overtemps, etc.
If the pumps are running, I can bleed all the radiators and, after a top-off of the Heatmor, get very little air out and almost immediate water from the bleeder valves. I discovered the other night that if I open those bleeders with the pumps off, the hissing I am hearing (which will go a LONG time) appears to be water being sucked into the radiator rather than bled out. So, obviously, I've stopped doing that. I now only bleed them (mostly to test the system) when the pumps are running at the furnace.
We had one radiator whose valve hadn't been replaced at first and it hissed all the time. In retrospect the other day, I realized it might have been sucking air in as much as anything. It has since been replaced and is now quiet. That radiator, too, has no bleeder on it due to a cramped space (no room for the valve). Even now with a new feed valve on it, I can hear it making trickling/tinkling noises inside faintly. I suspect it has a great deal of air - even though it heats up pretty well - that has never been bled off. I am tempted to shut that radiator off entirely or even remove it and cap off the feed and return pipes (as we've done with one other in the house).
So, in summary, no matter what I do, we seem to keep losing water and I suspect it's all coming out the top of the Heatmor rather than from a leak somewhere. The suggestion from the dealer right now is that we have an air leak somewhere (?) that is allowing pressure to keep building and blowing the water out of the furnace. If we do, I've not found it. I also have a hard time imaging we have an air leak if water wouldn't come out in a visible way when the pumps are on or even off. Thus far, we've found NO leaks of water... so how would we get leaks of air? Maybe a leaky bleeder valve that isn't losing water? If so, would I not hear that air sucking in with close inspection?
This is getting pretty frustrating, so I'm hoping someone with a wood furnace and old cast iron radiators might share their experience and point out something we might be doing wrong. If anyone else has ideas on how to test our system or changes we can make (hopefully minimal) to get this thing running right, we'd be forever grateful.
Sorry for the overly long post, but there is a lot to the story. I can answer any questions anyone might have, too, if I've overlooked a detail here that is useful.
Thanks!
- Aaron
Sweet Briar, Va
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