Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Portage & Main => Topic started by: cando attitude on November 27, 2014, 05:43:57 AM
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First of all, Happy Thanksgiving to you guys.
The rest of the family is still in bed so I thought I would jump on line for a quick moment.....Anyhooo....I wanted to share something with you guys that seems to help me with increased burn times. I just put the stove in this year so not a lot of experience and was noticing that I always had a lot of larger, hot coals in my ash box. I'm an engineer by trade and a tightwad to boot so I was determined to keep these coals instead of throwing them out with the ashes so I went out and bought several standard 1" firebricks to install in the stove between the larger firebrick that came with the stove. I have them placed such that I have 1/8" to 1/4" gaps between the firebricks to allow ashes to fall and air from the blower to feed fire. This has worked great. I no longer have large coals in my ash box and I seem to be getting increased burn times.
As I'm trying to understand this, a few things come to mind. First of all, this does impede the airflow into the firebox, which will increase recovery times but I also believe that this keeps the fan from blasting all the hot air through the stove (allowing for more dwell time in the stove and thus more heat transfer). I also believe that these smaller ash slots reduces the natural updraft of the stove when the stove is not calling for heat (i.e. fan off). Additionally this has certainly helped me to keep an improved bed of coals. So that's my $.02 for the day. I am interested to see if others have tried this and if others have/do, if you see the same benefits.
Good day guys,
Cando
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So do you know how many bricks are in the bottom? I have last years model and it has 13 bricks. I have talked with a member here who has 12 bricks and another member who has the latest version with 9 larger bricks with built in spacers. What I did with mine was to build spacers for each side of the fire bricks to keep them spaced without them moving around when stirring the coals. It's working out well with only a fine ash getting through the gaps.
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Good point, Crow. I do not know how many bricks are in the bottom, guess I just assumed that all had the same number. I'm guessing in the 9-10 range. Surely not 13. On average my gaps were ~1-1.5". The next time I burn down I'll try to get a count.
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What did you make the spacers with? I would like to make some but didn't know if steel would warp.
I have had trouble with bricks moving when I rake coals.
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I used two 1/2 inch host bars 36 inches long. I welded eleven spacers to them. I used 3/8 inch rod cut in 2 inches in length for the spacers using one of the bricks for a guide. I set them in and slid one to each side and now I cant move the bricks by accident and the scraper slides down them so I don't even hit the brick. Have not pulled them out yet to see if they warped or not.
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Thanks, but I have to ask what is a host bar?
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The host bar is the 1/2 inch bar I welded the 3/8 inch spacers to.
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Thanks Crow. I need to do something to keep the brick in place. No matter how hard I try, I will hook one about once a week and have to let the coals burn down so I can fix it.
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I talked to Slimjim and he gave me a fix for this. I talked to P&M about this and they are supposed to send me 2 bricks. Haven't seen them yet. Wish I could get them, Bricks keep falling over blocking air flow and giving me a very poor fire. Can a BL 2840 with bricks be converted to shaker grates? Slimjims fix will work but I have to burn it down and probably lose a day or two of heating with it.
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I dropped in these brick spacers two weeks from today, I have to say that they work really great. No more 0"- 2" gaps between firebricks, no more large pieces of charcoal, up to 3", only 1/2" pieces in the ash drawer & and the ash is evenly level from front to back. In the firebox, the embers are now evenly glowing from front to back, no dead areas. Most of all, the firebricks are now permanently set at 1/2" spacing with no concern of them moving while raking coals.
Since I dropped these spacers in, I only need to clean out the ash drawer once a week instead of twice. The fire seems to be burning hotter with less smoke. An easy $18 fix.
I couldn't upload photos, but they are on another forum, under: Firebrick Spacing Tricks.
Thanks Crow, for this idea!
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I'm burning down tonight so I can work on this tomorrow. Seems as some of these 2840's were shipped without the proper number of bricks leaving the spaces to wide causing them to fall over. Not all of the stoves have the same size bricks in them. Once I get burned down I will measure one and make the spacers.
The new stoves have bricks with tabs on them so they remain properly spaced and can't fall over. If these spacers warp I will try to get a new set of bricks.
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My BL 2840 dealer wanted $42 apiece x 12 or 13 tabbed bricks. I'll stay with my home built metal spacers, if they become unusable after a few years, I'll build another & the current bricks can be replaced when needed, for a few dollars apiece from Menards.
When you make these metal brick spacers, slightly grind the ends of spacer tabs to a taper, it'll help to guide the spacers between the bricks a bit easier. I used a small hammer to lightly tap the spacers in. Don't be afraid to leave a little wiggle room between the bricks, makes it easier to slide in, some brick ends are slightly larger than the other end.
It felt real good knowing how solid the bricks felt in place.
Happy New Year!
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I made my spacers with 1/2" x 1" bars 36" long. I drilled 1/2" holes in them 3 1/8" apart and welded 1/2" x 3" rod in them. Put it all together and everything seems solid.
My stove should have 13 bricks in it but came with 12. I put the 12 back in and found a brick 1 1/4" thick that filled the extra space. With the spacers my gaps between bricks is a bit wider than it was designed to be but I can live with it.
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After spacing my fire bricks 1/2" apart, I came up with a wide gap, like you, I placed a 1 1/4" brick in there, worked out perfectly.
Don't worry about the slightly larger spaces, you're still a lot farther ahead with all the bricks being evenly spaced at all time. You're wood consumption & ash output will be less, with a much better burn.
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Stove has been burning for 4 hours now since the spacers were put in. It's burning like it did when it was new. Trying to get a coal bed built now.
$42 a brick is ridiculous! Doesn't the warranty cover quality and workmanship? Rory @ P&M said they had problems with not enough bricks sent with some of the stoves. Isn't that workmanship?
Sorry, just had to complain.
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Bud Man, THAT is a very VALID complaint, call Rory back, find out why you are being charged for what should have been there from the beginning.
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Bud Man, THAT is a very VALID complaint, call Rory back, find out why you are being charged for what should have been there from the beginning.
In my case, P&M was notified from my dealer or perhaps from you SlimJim when you and I talked about this a while back, that I needed a 1 1/4" brick after I properly spaced them & that they were all loose. Brian from P&M, called me (I missed the call), then my dealer called right after I stepped into the house, my dealer had spoke with Brian and that P&M offered to sell me the fire bricks for half price, not including shipping. I opted to have my son weld me a set of spacers.
oaky
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How about changing the mold shape to include a refractory brick spacer cast into the refractory brick itself?
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How about changing the mold shape to include a refractory brick spacer cast into the refractory brick itself?
That is exactly how mine is
(http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag443/sceptre74/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141019_094658_zpsae8773f6.jpg) (http://s1375.photobucket.com/user/sceptre74/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20141019_094658_zpsae8773f6.jpg.html)
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Bud man - I agree. This should be a warranty/workmanship issue.
I started another thread a few days ago about adding a shaker grate to my stove. Really this is the issue. With the bricks continually moving, it makes it a b***h to rake out the ash effectively and maintain even burns. Don't get me wrong, I love my stove and wouldn't trade it for any other brand. I bought it because of the efficiency, build quality and everything I read on here about how P&M stands behind their product (and because of slim!).
For what I paid for the stove, I would expect P&M to honor their warranty against workmanship and resolve this flaw. By acknowledging it with a bulletin and design modification, they have effectively admitted there is an issue. This is no different than a service bulletin/recall for a vehicle.
I could easily make the spacer modification mentioned in this thread and was considering doing so until I slept on it last night. In my opinion, I shouldn't have to rig something that P&M has acknowledged as a flaw. At this point, it's a matter of principal and customer service.
Slim, can you get us any help on this or should I just contact Robert or Brian? Even at half price for the bricks as oaky mentioned was offered to him, that is not a resolution for what should have been in the design from the beginning.
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Scepter, When did you get your stove? I ask because I got mine last April and didn't get the new style bricks.
In my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth, P&M should provide the new style bricks as a fix for the problem.
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I agree with you, they should. Doesn't look good on them not fixing an issue that they clearly know about.
Mine landed here July 30th but can't remember the manufacturer date on it.
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$42 a brick is ridiculous! Doesn't the warranty cover quality and workmanship? Rory @ P&M said they had problems with not enough bricks sent with some of the stoves. Isn't that workmanship?
I would label it as a lack of a quality control prior to the item shipping out of the factory. Workmanship has more to do with the quality of the stove itself.
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Look at the tag in the back of the unit, it will give the manufacture date!
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My BL-2840 manufacture date is January 2014.
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Hate to revive an old thread but needed to vent on this again.
After my post above on this topic. I emailed P&M about this issue and my request for a resolution. After multiple emails and phone calls with Robert, Brian, and Rory over 2 months and an internal consultation with their engineer at the factory (Robert?), I was finally told that they would stand behind their product and ship the new design fire bricks as a replacement. The catch was they wanted to wait until a stove was coming this direction so they could piggyback on the truck and save on freight. Understandable, given that the bricks were shipping from Canada to NW Arkansas.
Well, after months of waiting with no word from P&M and no bricks, it's now about time to fire up the stove for the season. I finally gave up last weekend and decided I was on my own. Since I don't have a welder to make the spacer, I decided to take a different route and modify the existing bricks along the lines of the new design. I broke out my trusty circular saw and a concrete blade and went to work. I notched the edge of the bricks 1/2". It wasn't fun (didn't realize there are metal fibers in fire brick lol), but it got the job done. I also cut down some fire brick I had laying around from our old indoor wood furnace to 3" to fill the gap left after pushing all the brick tight. I should have taken some pictures before firing the stove up so everyone could see the finished result, but hindsight right? So far it is working well. I'm finally getting good, even airflow into the firebox without having to worry about the spacing every time I rake the ash. We'll see how it does through the season as the stove get more use.
I'm pretty disappointed with P&M on this. I don't feel like they have lived up to the reputation of customer service that helped sway me to this brand of furnace or that they kept their word as Rory agreed to with me. As I maintained in my previous post, I see this as a design flaw that has a major impact on the proper function of the stove and was addressed through a design modification in the factory. P&M should do the right thing and have some integrity with owners of the earlier design. Just my 2 cents.
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Wow, sorry to hear of the way this was handled, next time I speak with Brian, I will mention it to him.
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So far, my welded spacers for the old style bricks are still functioning after the second half of the burn season last winter, now going into 4 weeks for this heating season. I agree with sceptre74, it's a warranty issue, P&M offered to replace my bricks for half price, $21 apiece, not including shipping. Still a hefty price for the consumer to pay for a flaw, so I declined.
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Thanks Slim, though at this point I am not sure what good it would do. Have to say, this has left a bad taste in my mouth with P&M. When I was looking to buy the stove, Robert called me fairly often. After my purchase and during my install (did it all myself), he was still in good contact and very helpful. He even sent me pics of his personal install. He also followed up a few times after startup to see how things were going. Robert was great. When I called about the bricks, I got the feeling that he was very apologetic and it was out of his control. I don't have anything bad to say about Robert at all. Rory, however was pretty much an ass about the whole deal. I had to keep pushing the point and calling back to get any response at all.
Oaky, I agree. This is definitely a flaw in the design and should be rectified by the manufacturer at no cost to the consumer (especially not at that brick per brick + shipping from Canada). I'm not an engineer or experienced in wood stove design, but in my mind this should have been a pretty basic part of the initial design. The stove is marketed as more efficient with more complete combustion due in part to the introduction of pre-heated air under the fire. This was apparently as major point of the design so wouldn't keeping the bricks stationary and evenly spaced be crucial to this concept? To quote their brochure, "this is Wood Burning Technology 101".
Sorry.....still venting......
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Jackh113 - Glad you revived the thread. I remember thinking last year, "I am going to check mine in the spring cause I don't remember what mine looks like."
Sceptre74 - Mine is exactly like yours. Thank for the pic. My 2840 was manufactured June 2014 and has 8 bricks. The 7 gaps, when the brick are tight measure 1/2". However, mine needs to be completely taken out and pushed tight. A couple of my gaps are 3/4" right now. Once I adjust mine, I'll make me a spacer to fill the remaining. By what I just viewed, it doesn't look like it will be more than an inch. Craftsmanship flaw ? My opinion is no. Quality Control improvements needed ? My opinion is yes. I have had nothing but excellent customer service from anyone I've spoken with @ P&M. I believe he will and I hope Brian will read this thread. I, as well as you Jackh113, do not take the lack of customer support from any company lightly and I only hope that a resolution to an admitted flaw is in the works. On a side note. I almost fired mine Friday night but got too busy. Going to be in the mid 70's next week. Guess I'll try and fire this coming Friday. High 50, low 30's this time next week. Stay warm...
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I did speak with Brian, he is not sure who you are and asked me to have you give him a call at the office.
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Slim, Brian called me early this morning before I even saw your post. I guess he figured out who I was as I'm sure there haven't been that many stoves sold this far south. lol We had a good conversation for a little over 30 minutes. Long story short, Rory is no longer with Heat Smart (wasn't aware of that) and didn't make any notes in my files about our conversation. Despite this, Brian is going to honor the agreement Rory made and ship replacement bricks at no charge.
As I told Brian, I am very happy with my stove. I took a picture of it last winter with snow on it, no smoke coming out of the stack, and it was at a full burn. You could see the heat signature coming out of the stack if you looked at the pic closely. I posted this to Facebook bragging about my new stove. It is amazing. My only disappointment was the customer service I received over this issue. I have to say that Brian is being a man of integrity and standing behind a commitment made by a former employee. He didn't have to. This is the kind of customer service I heard about from P&M when I was shopping for stoves and expected after buying. This is the kind of customer service that wins customer loyalty. It has not gone unnoticed or unappreciated.
Thank you Brian for being a man of honor.
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Awesome I'm glad he found you, he said he thought he might know because of your location.
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I got a BL-2840 last October to replace My ML-30 that had issues. Not knowing about the upgraded bricks when i picked up the stove I asked Rory if he could help me put the new bricks in my stove. He gave me a ridiculous quote of several hundred dollars. I couldn't justify the cost after just dropping money to upgrade from my ML30 that had the heat exchanger rust out. I should have giving Brian a call. He was great to work with when I purchased my original stove and my father-in-laws stove when the local stealer wouldn't help me.
I did put the rebar in my stove I think it helps, but with the 1/2" spacing I think it's too much for the fan. I don't seem to get an air out the front air chamber.
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I have followed this thread for some time.My experience with Rory was bad from the start to say the least.I first contacted him about 3 years ago about becoming a dealer,he was quite gung-ho about the proposition,and emailed me the information,along with how much of an investment I would have to make.While I was contemplating,I found out that my Mom had just been diagnosed with terminal cancer,I explained this to him,to which he complained about wasting his time.
When I decided to go with a P &M furnace,I called in March,was told Rory would call me back,2 months later no calls. I called again, to which he lied to me saying he had returned the call many times,I have VoIP phone service,so I can look up all numbers called for months. I then contacted local dealer,who after 2 calls told me that Rory had told him to back off,he had started the deal!!
When I did make the deal,it was on a Friday,dealer told me he would be by with stove on Monday,didn't happen for 3 weeks,Rory said it was my fault as I hadn't made a deposit,yet stove would have been here before check went through the mail
After the stove arrived,Ihad a Lot of trouble with burn times,ash clean out,etc. Slim and Brian tried to help me out,when I phoned for Brian to try to get the stove working properly ,Rory basically told me that nobody but me had trouble with this stove,maybe I should consider another brand,even though I had heard from others with similar problems.
To basically sum it up,when a company rep calls you everything but a white man,it sickens you of the company.Sorry for the long rant,but I think P & M is better off without him,and I am much happier with this furnace,and the level of customer support
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I'm glad this has been brought back to my attention. I am going to talk with Robert about this. My homemade spacers will work again this season but I think I will have to make a new set before next year. The heat will eventually ruin them. P&M should fix this.
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I'm glad this has been brought back to my attention. I am going to talk with Robert about this. My homemade spacers will work again this season but I think I will have to make a new set before next year. The heat will eventually ruin them. P&M should fix this.
I agree! The least they could do is give them a fair price. The $350ish price Rory gave me was laughable at best.
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Guys, I think if you give them a call at the office, they will be fair! Remember anything we purchase today will be improved tomorrow, typically upgrades on any products are offered at a price and not simply handed out, look at your cell phone for instance.
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Update.... I received my bricks about a week ago. Brian was true to his word. Many thanks Brian. I haven't put them in yet as the stove has been in use for a couple of weeks. I'll probably finish out this season with my home modified brick and put them in come spring.
Slim, I don't see this as an upgrade situation. I would consider it more of a design flaw issue. I've used the example many times, but I would consider this similar to a factory recall/technical service bulletin on a car. Ford let's everyone know they goofed it on something and you take your vehicle in to be fixed at no cost.