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[muffin]

thanks martyinmi.  That post was helpful.  My local hawken dealer claims that the gassers are not much more efficient than the non gassers.  he says maybe 2 or 3 points which brings me to my first question.  What do the "points" transfer into laymens terms?  Second, why would he try to sell me a lower priced unit?  The hawken GX 10 is around 8 and the HE 2100 is around 7200 (quoted). Last, I've been told there is a lot more maintenance to gassers which kind of goes against what you were saying about less cleaning time.  What are your opinions on maintenance between the two?

 Thanks.  You all have been helpful.

From what I am hearing they are a good bit more work.  I have a classic and I pretty much do nothing to it.  About every 3 months I pull some ash out but that's it.  I am not really sure I even need to do that.  It seems like the ash builds up fast to a certain level and then just stay there.  I am burning abotu a cord a week right now so it is seeing some hefty use too.

[Ridgekid]

Muffin- And I thought it was just me. I clean mine out and it seems like days later I need to clean it out again. Three weeks later it's still at the same level it was after the first week. Glad to know I'm not completely nuts.

My only explanation is the "Cinders" slowly burn down into ash, which obviously uses less room.

[muffin]

Yeah.  I think anything below the door bassically stagnates.  it seems the ash builds up really fast to that level.  But as soon as it gets above the door I think it get air and burns up.

[woodman]

chadley,
   From what I've read on the hearth forum, starting sometime in the year 2014, anyone owning an OWB that is not EPA phase 2 compliant will not be able to sell their property with an operational conventional OWB on it. In other words- if you plan on staying on your property for a significant period of time, than a conventional one may be alright for you, as you will be grandfathered in, but the OWB will need to be removed should you decide to sell. If the OWB is the only heat source, it's removal will obviously diminish property value a bit. They are saying that the implementation of the program will be nation wide. I'm not buying it totally until I see something from the EPA. I've sent them 2 email's in the last two weeks and I've not received any response.
   Sorry for that ramble.
   Back to your post now. Gassers, and from what I've read it doesn't matter much what brand, will burn around 40-45% less wood than the average conventional OWB, as much as 60% less than very inefficient OWB's, and about 30-40% less than some of the very efficient ones. They will burn wet wood, however efficiencies suffer a lot- but that is true of a conventional OWB also, and cleaning frequencies will be shortened with wet wood. Cleaning mine takes just under 10 minutes/week of my time. The gasification process has been around for nearly 200 years, and there are OWB company's out there that started making them back in the '90's, so the technology is not new, as  the European's they have been using gassers(usually indoor ones) for more than 3 decades.
   I think it's awesome that people are considering renewable resources to heat their homes. I started out with a conventional OWB about 5 years back, then moved to a gasser last year. At a month shy of 50, hauling 45% less wood home is much easier on these old bones, and although my neighbors had never complained about my conventional OWB, I feel much better that I'm not sending smoke in their direction anymore. I'd now never consider anything other than a gasser. Burning 5 or 6 cords/year is a lot better than going through 9 or 10....or 11. But, hey, I'm gettin' old.

Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?

[woodman]

thanks martyinmi.  That post was helpful.  My local hawken dealer claims that the gassers are not much more efficient than the non gassers.  he says maybe 2 or 3 points which brings me to my first question.  What do the "points" transfer into laymens terms?  Second, why would he try to sell me a lower priced unit?  The hawken GX 10 is around 8 and the HE 2100 is around 7200 (quoted). Last, I've been told there is a lot more maintenance to gassers which kind of goes against what you were saying about less cleaning time.  What are your opinions on maintenance between the two?

 Thanks.  You all have been helpful.

Chadley, I can't answer your question about the difference in maintance since I have not ever owned a gasser, but I can tell you I am on my 5th year with my hawken he1000 and have been very happy with it. I work this stove pretty hard, I heat my dhw ( for 5), my 3000 sq ft house (living space) to 74* plus another 1800 sq ft 5' high crawl space kept around 65 and my garage mostly kept at 55. I live in Michigan so we do get fairly cold here. I use between 10-12 full cord from mid October thru mid May. Operating the stove is simple, if it is above 35* I load it close to full at 5:00 pm this will last 24 hrs. Between25*-35* I will add a few pieces at noon to make it till 5:00pm. If it is much colder than that I usually have to fill it half full at 8:00 am to make it till 5:00. Heat loss calc on my house only shows I average 30,000 btu/hr with a max closer to 60,000 when it is below zero with a wind. In other words I repace about 1500 gallons of fuel oil per year, plus my electric drops about $40.00 per month due to the dhw.

Comparing the gx10 to the 2100 is like comparing apples to oranges. I think the gx 10 is only rated for 3500 sq ft, slightly less than the he1100 at 4000' and well short of the 10,000' the 2100 is "rated for". Take these ratings as a measurement between units and not what you can actually heat. For example, If my wife was taking a bath, and the house was calling for heat, I couldn't heat my garage up to 70 at the same time. I get away with my system due to the fact that everything is'nt calling for heat all at once. I can't remember how much you were going to heat but I thought it was more than 3500'.

Also the statement your dealer made concerns me a little. A gasser should burn between 25-40% less wood than a convental boiler, IF your wood is correct moisture content and the boiler is kept clean. Make your chioce by what your heat load is, and what type and how much wood you have. My system works great for me, but I have a huge resource of available wood. If you are still deciding between a hardy, shaver, or hawken I think you have a easy choice. I think you owe it to yourself to look HARD at the more efficient but not true gasser designs offered by portage and main and heatmaster. Good luck!       

[chadley]

ok woodman.  A lot of good info.  thanks.  The reason I was looking at the 2100 is because it is considered commercial and does not fall under Indiana EPA guidelines so that would negate any selling house issues in the future or any laws that may come into play.  Also, everyone says go bigger rather than smaller.  I am at this point only going to be heating 1800 sq ft but am going to be adding a 3 bay 2 story garage in the future of at least 1800 sq ft bringing my roundabout total to 3600-4000 sq ft.  which is far below the 10000 rating of the 2100.  I just figured I wouldn't have any room to worry with the bigger unit. 

I sell firewood as a side job.  I have sold approx 15-17 cords so far this year.  I have access to a lot of wood that I can sell and even more than I can't sell but still burns well.  Wood is not an issue per say other than it will take away from my profits of selling.

I have no clue about any of the other OWB's you mentioned.  Why do you suggest them over the Hawken or Hardy?  I have pretty well eliminated the Shavers.  I don't like the idea of having to make a bunch of modifications to them to get them to work efficiently.  Thanks for your help guys.  I am soaking all of the info in so keep it coming if you have ideas or suggestions.

[woodman]

The p&m and heatmaster both offer "traditional" stoves that add another pass for the flue gasses to exchange heat on. The hawken has the four tubes inside the burn chamber that the gasses have to flow around before they are forced via restricter plate to the front then back up across the top to the chimney. I am not taking anything away from the hawken I just feel these 2 other stoves are more comparable to the hawken. I assume they will also be more expensive since they are both manufactured in Canada. Whatever boiler you buy just make sure you get logstor underground pipe or sprayed in place closed cell foam. Not cheap, but more important than any brand of stove you go with.     

[martyinmi]

woodman,
   Before I had my first gasser, I had one that I built 5 years ago. It is a pipe-in-a-pipe design with a water baffle that was 4" from the bottom. It is force fed by by two blowers, one in the loading door and one in the rear. The air from the rear fan was routed through the exhaust to preheat the air, then injected just after the baffle where it was fire brick lined. Once the fire brick achieved a certain temperature, the smoke would ignite(with help from the heated rear fan air) and it would burn smoke free. I did what so many out there do before building one- in that I stole some efficiency ideas from a few of the better manufacturers and incorporated them in to mine. It is a very efficient boiler for what I had in to it. I would consistently use just  half the wood that one of my friends used with his store bought boiler. We have close to the same heat load, me maybe a bit more, as insulation apparently wasn't very popular around the turn of the century.
 Sounds like you've done a good job researching OWB's. By the way, where do you call home in our greatest of state's?
chadley,
   There are those who will maintain that the gassers are a lot more work, but they tend to be the ones who've never owned one. In the long run, they are much less work, as the wood consumption is much less, and that's where the hard work is as far as I'm concerned. The maintenance work, however, does require more time. I have my brushes in the compartment on the back of my boiler, so when I decide to clean, everything's right handy, and I can easily do it in ten minutes once/week.
   As far as what your Hawken dealer told you, I guess I'm hoping he wasn't referring to efficiency points. I'm sure he can't be, as that would be an untrue statement, to say the least. I have only seen one Hawken and it was at a farm show. Unless they've changed their burn chamber design in the last year or two, they will not come remotely close to any of the EPA gassers where efficiencies or emissions are concerned.
  You must have misunderstood the part of my post where maintenance is concerned. As far as I know, all gassers out there require more maintenance than their conventional cousins. How much more I'm sure depends on the manufacturer. I've operated an Empyre 100 and my P&M 250, and I can assure you that maintenance is a cake walk.
   On a more personal note: I wish you were a lot closer to me. You are way too cheap on your wood prices. At $65 for 3/4 cord, I'd probably never go to the woods again. 3/4 of cord of hardwood will sell for about $125 up here.
   Sounds like you are on the right path regarding your first purchase. Do boat loads of research. I agree with merrelroofing and woodfuel in that you only want to do this every 20 years or so, so make your choice an educated one.
   Marty
 

[martyinmi]

I have only owned a gasser, and its been a short while - this past October.  Cleaning takes me 15-20 minutes and now that its finally cold I am doing it once a week.  When the weather was warmer I was doing it every 2 weeks.  I found out this past weekend that a dirty gasser is not good.  It smoked a lot more than I'm used to (but much less than non gassers i've seen) and it doesn't gas correctly. 
Marty - I still want to chat with you sometime about my unit.  Not sure what times are good for you during the week?

I'm home from work at 4:00 or so, so anytime after that.

[MattyNH]

chadley,
   From what I've read on the hearth forum, starting sometime in the year 2014, anyone owning an OWB that is not EPA phase 2 compliant will not be able to sell their property with an operational conventional OWB on it. In other words- if you plan on staying on your property for a significant period of time, than a conventional one may be alright for you, as you will be grandfathered in, but the OWB will need to be removed should you decide to sell. If the OWB is the only heat source, it's removal will obviously diminish property value a bit. They are saying that the implementation of the program will be nation wide. I'm not buying it totally until I see something from the EPA. I've sent them 2 email's in the last two weeks and I've not received any response.
   Sorry for that ramble.
   Back to your post now. Gassers, and from what I've read it doesn't matter much what brand, will burn around 40-45% less wood than the average conventional OWB, as much as 60% less than very inefficient OWB's, and about 30-40% less than some of the very efficient ones. They will burn wet wood, however efficiencies suffer a lot- but that is true of a conventional OWB also, and cleaning frequencies will be shortened with wet wood. Cleaning mine takes just under 10 minutes/week of my time. The gasification process has been around for nearly 200 years, and there are OWB company's out there that started making them back in the '90's, so the technology is not new, as  the European's they have been using gassers(usually indoor ones) for more than 3 decades.
   I think it's awesome that people are considering renewable resources to heat their homes. I started out with a conventional OWB about 5 years back, then moved to a gasser last year. At a month shy of 50, hauling 45% less wood home is much easier on these old bones, and although my neighbors had never complained about my conventional OWB, I feel much better that I'm not sending smoke in their direction anymore. I'd now never consider anything other than a gasser. Burning 5 or 6 cords/year is a lot better than going through 9 or 10....or 11. But, hey, I'm gettin' old.

Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?

I don't believe it..Just because you have a non epa  working wood boiler or a non epa working woodstove, You can't sell your property??..That would be like saying you can't sell your house or building  or property cause you have presence of asbestos or lead or a working out house that is grandfathered due to a older house..

[willieG]

Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?
[/quote] I don't believe it..Just because you have a non epa  working wood boiler or a non epa working woodstove, You can't sell your property??..That would be like saying you can't sell your house or building  or property cause you have presence of asbestos or lead or a working out house that is grandfathered due to a older house..
[/quote]

i can believe that, insurance companies and banks rule the roost. i bought a propertie a few years back and it had oil heat. before i could get insurance the furnace ahd to be checked and the manufactures date on the external oil tank. the oil tank was six years old. in order to get insurance the seller had to provide me with a new tank as you can not insure a newly aquired house here in ontario with a tank older than five years and you can not get a mortgage without proof of insurance. i am not sure but i think if you are selling a business (perhaps a house as well) you ahve to have an envirenmental evaluation done as well for the mortgage company. to sell a house with asbestos may fall under that rule i dont know 

[MattyNH]

Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?

I don't believe it..Just because you have a non epa  working wood boiler or a non epa working woodstove, You can't sell your property??..That would be like saying you can't sell your house or building  or property cause you have presence of asbestos or lead or a working out house that is grandfathered due to a older house..
[/quote]

i can believe that, insurance companies and banks rule the roost. i bought a propertie a few years back and it had oil heat. before i could get insurance the furnace ahd to be checked and the manufactures date on the external oil tank. the oil tank was six years old. in order to get insurance the seller had to provide me with a new tank as you can not insure a newly aquired house here in ontario with a tank older than five years and you can not get a mortgage without proof of insurance. i am not sure but i think if you are selling a business (perhaps a house as well) you ahve to have an envirenmental evaluation done as well for the mortgage company. to sell a house with asbestos may fall under that rule i dont know
[/quote]Im not talking about insurance.. EPA which is federal..Im talking about..Insurance companies can make there own rules...I can shop around for different insurances..Ive heard that some insurances won't insure a house cause of a  indoor wood stove....When buying a house here in the states you need a inspector if a bank is involved , which protects the buyer and the bank..Its not law at least in my state to have insurance..In fact there is no manitory auto ins law,  no seatbelt law over 18.....The bank makes you have insurance if you borrow money.... I highly doubt after 2014 because I have a non EPA approve boiler and a non EPA approved wood stove in my basement .. That Id never be able to sell my house if I decide to for some reason...

[rick n kristi]

Chadley,
Lots of good 1st hand advice here. I was in the same place as you about a year ago. I chose a Natures Comfort 325G. It is an up draft style gasification boiler which is not finicky about what is burned; it handles green or seasoned wood. It also burns coal very well. It met the threshold for the $1500.00 tax credit offered at the time I bought it. It has worked flawlessly and does not require the maintenance that others do. When mine gets a little gummed up I throw in a little coal and that cleans her out! At the current temps here teens and upper 20s I can go 24 hours on a full load heating 3600 ft. The house is not insulated well and we keep it at 75 degrees. That would also be using blow down red pine for fuel. I have not cut any live trees since I got the boiler, just cleaning up my woods. We had a lot of scattered red pine in our woods that blew down several winters ago. This boiler will make good BTU's out of any wood that will fit through the door. If it holds together enough to be thrown in she will burn it! Of course the better quality of wood you burn the better your results will be. If you sell wood this boiler will burn all the junk you can’t sell leaving the good wood for $ in your pocket. Give the 325G a look!

[willieG]

im not saying a cash buyer  can't buy your house with a non gasser but i would think that if your state makes it law that you can not buy or burn a non gasser in your state that very soon they may consider that if you buy a home with a non gasser on teh property you are in fact buying that stove and that is not lawful. now maybe all  you ahve to do is unhook it so it is not in operation and that would be lawful. also in todays market there are not many folks who could pay cash for a home that would even consider burning wood

if the EPA says no gassers allowed for sale in that state, i am certain the mortgage and insurance companies will jump all over that.

i know here in ontario right now indoor wood stoves are still allowed but if you have one it is an automatic 50 dollar surcharge on the bill. as far as new laws being passed by comunnities, one is no outdoor boiler may be nearer to a neighbors property line than 300 feet  and not closer to any neighbours residance that 600 feet..pretty much means none allowed in any "built up area.

[MattyNH]

im not saying a cash buyer  can't buy your house with a non gasser but i would think that if your state makes it law that you can not buy or burn a non gasser in your state that very soon they may consider that if you buy a home with a non gasser on teh property you are in fact buying that stove and that is not lawful. now maybe all  you ahve to do is unhook it so it is not in operation and that would be lawful. also in todays market there are not many folks who could pay cash for a home that would even consider burning wood

if the EPA says no gassers allowed for sale in that state, i am certain the mortgage and insurance companies will jump all over that.

i know here in ontario right now indoor wood stoves are still allowed but if you have one it is an automatic 50 dollar surcharge on the bill. as far as new laws being passed by comunnities, one is no outdoor boiler may be nearer to a neighbors property line than 300 feet  and not closer to any neighbours residance that 600 feet..pretty much means none allowed in any "built up area.

My state is a EPA phase 2 state only as a couple of yrs ago.. The OWB is grandfathered..Weather I own the house or not..Perfectly legal..It was bought before the EPA law..Dont see how a mortgage or a insurance company can do anything about it..Maybe its different in Canada..