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1
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: What did you use?
« on: June 11, 2008, 07:51:39 PM »
Just bought a Cozeburn 250 from my local dealer. Havent dug my trench yet for the install, but I am starting to believe that there is little room for skimping on this piping. I believe Charlie has a great point - "just do it once."
WillieG, I like your idea of using a larger outer casing as a thermal break. Seems like the dual purpose of thermal break and using it as a conduit and being able to reinsert a different inner system could have its advantages too, as long as youre not gonna try to push thru too much length. Who knows, someone could invent the magic bullet next year and the conduit would let you make the swap with minimal or no digging. Worth the money, Id say!.
The dealer I got my OWB from recommends a product called MicroFlex. It comes in single, dual, and quad pipe configurations. It is, I think, made in Belgium. Not cheap at $13/ft., but I see at least one thing about it that kinda sells me - it is waterproof. The foam wrap that surrounds the piping is made of closed cell polyethylene. To the touch it feels like semi-rigid plastic foam, obviously made up of small plastic air bubbles. There is an inner core, which holds the piping (separated) and about four layers of sheet wrap around the core, all tight inside a flexible plastic duct.
Just about anything that gets buried in the ground is gonna try to take on water and it sure seems to me that once you take on water from the side or even thru the end of your casing, youre losing heat BIGTIME!, but only if the foam is permeable. Ive heard of those wrap systems that fit together in halves and get taped together, but Im wondering how these type wraps keep water away from the lines. Do they really seal THAT well?
You guys can check it out here:
http://www.microflex.be/en/products/uno-duo-quadro.html
Maybe someone is more up to speed than me on interpreting the insulative value numbers on this. I think the .pdf files give some numbers. The stuff you guys already mentioned might be better, and I want to check into that when I get time. All I can say at this point is that I have heard quite a few horror stories about strips of green grass in 10 degree weather and I want to avoid this at all costs. Im not really into cuttiing wood all summer just for the sake of exercise, either, so anything that can be done to make my system more efficient is worth the money to me.
Just to throw something out here as food for thought, Ive heard a lot about using different materials (pea gravel, sawdust, styrofoam, etc.) around the casing. Does it make any sense to think that a good layer of quality clay should be laid in outside of the other stuff to serve as a water barrier? I once heard of guy who had a pond dug that wouldnt hold water because the natural soil in the area was too granular to hold the water in. It kept leeching out. After having the pond lined with clay, it held water.
How important do you more experienced guys think it is to be waterproofed? What other measures can be taken to hold precious heat in?
WillieG, I like your idea of using a larger outer casing as a thermal break. Seems like the dual purpose of thermal break and using it as a conduit and being able to reinsert a different inner system could have its advantages too, as long as youre not gonna try to push thru too much length. Who knows, someone could invent the magic bullet next year and the conduit would let you make the swap with minimal or no digging. Worth the money, Id say!.
The dealer I got my OWB from recommends a product called MicroFlex. It comes in single, dual, and quad pipe configurations. It is, I think, made in Belgium. Not cheap at $13/ft., but I see at least one thing about it that kinda sells me - it is waterproof. The foam wrap that surrounds the piping is made of closed cell polyethylene. To the touch it feels like semi-rigid plastic foam, obviously made up of small plastic air bubbles. There is an inner core, which holds the piping (separated) and about four layers of sheet wrap around the core, all tight inside a flexible plastic duct.
Just about anything that gets buried in the ground is gonna try to take on water and it sure seems to me that once you take on water from the side or even thru the end of your casing, youre losing heat BIGTIME!, but only if the foam is permeable. Ive heard of those wrap systems that fit together in halves and get taped together, but Im wondering how these type wraps keep water away from the lines. Do they really seal THAT well?
You guys can check it out here:
http://www.microflex.be/en/products/uno-duo-quadro.html
Maybe someone is more up to speed than me on interpreting the insulative value numbers on this. I think the .pdf files give some numbers. The stuff you guys already mentioned might be better, and I want to check into that when I get time. All I can say at this point is that I have heard quite a few horror stories about strips of green grass in 10 degree weather and I want to avoid this at all costs. Im not really into cuttiing wood all summer just for the sake of exercise, either, so anything that can be done to make my system more efficient is worth the money to me.
Just to throw something out here as food for thought, Ive heard a lot about using different materials (pea gravel, sawdust, styrofoam, etc.) around the casing. Does it make any sense to think that a good layer of quality clay should be laid in outside of the other stuff to serve as a water barrier? I once heard of guy who had a pond dug that wouldnt hold water because the natural soil in the area was too granular to hold the water in. It kept leeching out. After having the pond lined with clay, it held water.
How important do you more experienced guys think it is to be waterproofed? What other measures can be taken to hold precious heat in?
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: 200' from property line & EPA Certified or remove from service by 2015!
« on: June 09, 2008, 04:56:54 PM »
RW, When is this meeting? Have you heard? Will it be in Columbus?
I think we need to raise hell at this meeting. They want to ban burning of "non-approved fuels" too. Coal will be a non-approved fuel if the EPA has their way. I'd imagine that, like zoning laws, any enforcement would be complaint driven, but I dont like the looks of the attitude they're taking on coal.
We're just trying to keep our heads above water, here. Thats why we do this. If they don't want me burning coal, they'd better drill for some more danged oil so the price will stop going up!
I think we need to raise hell at this meeting. They want to ban burning of "non-approved fuels" too. Coal will be a non-approved fuel if the EPA has their way. I'd imagine that, like zoning laws, any enforcement would be complaint driven, but I dont like the looks of the attitude they're taking on coal.
We're just trying to keep our heads above water, here. Thats why we do this. If they don't want me burning coal, they'd better drill for some more danged oil so the price will stop going up!
3
Site Suggestions / Re: Manufacturer List
« on: June 09, 2008, 03:16:04 PM »
yessir! 5/28/08.
javascript:void(0);
Thumbs Up
For some reason I feel compelled to learn how to use these smiley things. The last one I used didnt work right.
javascript:void(0);
Embarrassed
javascript:void(0);
Thumbs Up
For some reason I feel compelled to learn how to use these smiley things. The last one I used didnt work right.
javascript:void(0);
Embarrassed
4
Site Suggestions / Re: Different Message Board Software?
« on: June 09, 2008, 03:08:16 PM »
Well, would that smiley in my previous post have worked right with vbulletin?
5
Site Suggestions / Re: Different Message Board Software?
« on: June 09, 2008, 03:06:02 PM »
If it's possible, Id like to concur with what seems to be a non-decision. javascript:void(0);
Huh?Really, it seems to be working OK now, unless Im missing something. Do you need a financial burden now too, PhinPhan, in addition to all the headaches you must already have?
vBulletin does look nice, but unless the cost is inconsequential, Im sure none of us wish to throw it on one person. You do so much already for this site. We dont want to make it a full time job for anyone.
Would be nice to be able to contribute pics, but it looks like you've got that handled.
Huh?Really, it seems to be working OK now, unless Im missing something. Do you need a financial burden now too, PhinPhan, in addition to all the headaches you must already have?
vBulletin does look nice, but unless the cost is inconsequential, Im sure none of us wish to throw it on one person. You do so much already for this site. We dont want to make it a full time job for anyone.
Would be nice to be able to contribute pics, but it looks like you've got that handled.
6
Site Suggestions / Re: Manufacturer List
« on: June 01, 2008, 08:55:12 AM »
Being one of the newer members of this forum, I dont want to suggest any changes to what seems to be working for all you guys. I do, however, have an observation to make and PhinPhan can evaluate it for what its worth.
I believe that the forum division by mfg. is a good thing for subjects that pertain ONLY to one particular brand of boiler and NOT to other brands. Most issues, however, might better be broken down by topics as they relate to the OWB technology in general.
For example, the Woodmaster guys, naturally, will tend to gravitate to the Woodmaster group, but might have much to gain from guys in the Central Boiler group who are discussing heat exchangers. If ALL those guys were to input to a "heat exchanger" oriented topic, there would be less having to search all over the forum for info on heat exchangers. The subject of PEX line burial, insulation, waterproofing, protection, length, etc. pertains to all brands of boilers, not just Johnsons or Shavers, and would better be kept in its own subject category. Breaking threads down by manufacturer will lead to duplicate postings on those technical issues that aren't necessarily brand specific. I think you get the idea.
What is the answer here? Not sure. Maybe just that those of us who seem to be assuming the role of "charter members" be aware of this in our initial postings and post accordingly. Having a good "search" feature on the forum will be valuable for visitors to be able to pull out threads based on keywords.
As all forms of liquid and gas fuel become even more expensive in the future, there will surely be an increasing number of people out there who will be looking for alternatives. They will be searching for information on OWB technology Google will inevitably bring them here. They will be questioning our methods, decisions, and logic, and depending on our observations and input. With a little forethought and planning, we can deliver that information in an organized fashion.
It was wise of PhinPhan to ask this question, because the function of this forum, as I percieve it, is both to grow the technology of OWBs in general AND to discuss pros and cons of different brands.
I believe that the forum division by mfg. is a good thing for subjects that pertain ONLY to one particular brand of boiler and NOT to other brands. Most issues, however, might better be broken down by topics as they relate to the OWB technology in general.
For example, the Woodmaster guys, naturally, will tend to gravitate to the Woodmaster group, but might have much to gain from guys in the Central Boiler group who are discussing heat exchangers. If ALL those guys were to input to a "heat exchanger" oriented topic, there would be less having to search all over the forum for info on heat exchangers. The subject of PEX line burial, insulation, waterproofing, protection, length, etc. pertains to all brands of boilers, not just Johnsons or Shavers, and would better be kept in its own subject category. Breaking threads down by manufacturer will lead to duplicate postings on those technical issues that aren't necessarily brand specific. I think you get the idea.
What is the answer here? Not sure. Maybe just that those of us who seem to be assuming the role of "charter members" be aware of this in our initial postings and post accordingly. Having a good "search" feature on the forum will be valuable for visitors to be able to pull out threads based on keywords.
As all forms of liquid and gas fuel become even more expensive in the future, there will surely be an increasing number of people out there who will be looking for alternatives. They will be searching for information on OWB technology Google will inevitably bring them here. They will be questioning our methods, decisions, and logic, and depending on our observations and input. With a little forethought and planning, we can deliver that information in an organized fashion.
It was wise of PhinPhan to ask this question, because the function of this forum, as I percieve it, is both to grow the technology of OWBs in general AND to discuss pros and cons of different brands.
7
Hardy / Re: water loss
« on: May 21, 2008, 04:50:01 PM »
When you say your water has salt in it, I suspect you mean that you use a water softener? My understanding of a softener is that it only uses the salt to clean and re-energize the pellets within the tank(s) so that their ionic action can continue. Once they have been cleaned and rejuvenated, the salt should be rinsed entirely out of the system as a final phase of the softener's cycle.
If there were enough salt in your normal working water to corrode the metal, wouldn't you be able to taste that in the water?
If there were enough salt in your normal working water to corrode the metal, wouldn't you be able to taste that in the water?
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