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1
Portage & Main / Design "feature" of P&M
« on: December 30, 2012, 07:48:03 AM »
So I've been running the P&M ML42 for a month or so now. I've noticed that a combination of the features is causing something I wouldn't think is a positive. The fire chamber is basically a big round pot, with a baffle on the back top that causes the hot gases to collect at the top of the fire chamber before going below and then up and out the stack. Same design and my previous boiler so I'm totally comfortable with it and it works well.
Another great feature of my boiler is that is has a great big fire door so I can fit anything inside, including me. Way cool for loading wood and it really helps my back.
Here's the issue, the top of the fire door opening is ABOVE the bottom of the baffle. That means that the hot gas, smoke, etc, boils out of the door when you open it. To my knowledge there is no way to stop it. This means I get a face full of smoke every time I open the door and every piece I put in. My old boiler had a flapper that hung down at the top of the door opening that would simply fold out of the way when you put in wood or closed the door but kept the smoke going out the stack instead of out the door. It's a $2 fix for this issue. My question for you, am I missing something obvious? The boiler is level. I don't see or know of any bypass for loading. I've never heard anyone mention this before. Maybe I'd think it was normal if I'd never owned a boiler before.
Barring any revelations from you good folks, I'm going to put a flapper on my P&M this summer and stop choking on smoke next winter. I just can't understand why P&M would design a boiler to smoke when you open the door. That seems kind of basic.
Another great feature of my boiler is that is has a great big fire door so I can fit anything inside, including me. Way cool for loading wood and it really helps my back.
Here's the issue, the top of the fire door opening is ABOVE the bottom of the baffle. That means that the hot gas, smoke, etc, boils out of the door when you open it. To my knowledge there is no way to stop it. This means I get a face full of smoke every time I open the door and every piece I put in. My old boiler had a flapper that hung down at the top of the door opening that would simply fold out of the way when you put in wood or closed the door but kept the smoke going out the stack instead of out the door. It's a $2 fix for this issue. My question for you, am I missing something obvious? The boiler is level. I don't see or know of any bypass for loading. I've never heard anyone mention this before. Maybe I'd think it was normal if I'd never owned a boiler before.
Barring any revelations from you good folks, I'm going to put a flapper on my P&M this summer and stop choking on smoke next winter. I just can't understand why P&M would design a boiler to smoke when you open the door. That seems kind of basic.
2
Portage & Main / Pics of ML42 install.
« on: December 14, 2012, 07:12:34 PM »
So I've asked enough questions on here. I figured I'd post pics of the install now that it's all done. I'm trying to post photo's for the first time, so forgive me if I mess this up. I tried posting the pics inline. I'm sorry, I couldn't get it to work so I posted the link to the pics.
The old boiler, after removal.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8274029800/#
The hole where the old boiler has just left.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8272963299/#
The new ML42 after we got it onto the concrete (that wasn't easy!)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8272963413/#
I was height limited on a new boiler. We had P&M make the boiler without legs, no fill tube, no lift eye, no cladding, no insulation, etc. Here is how much clearance we had. This is with the boiler sitting flat on the concrete.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8274031386/#
The old boiler, after removal.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8274029800/#
The hole where the old boiler has just left.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8272963299/#
The new ML42 after we got it onto the concrete (that wasn't easy!)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8272963413/#
I was height limited on a new boiler. We had P&M make the boiler without legs, no fill tube, no lift eye, no cladding, no insulation, etc. Here is how much clearance we had. This is with the boiler sitting flat on the concrete.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/24069905@N02/8274031386/#
3
Portage & Main / Insulation used on Portage and Main boiler
« on: December 03, 2012, 03:42:18 PM »
So I'm installing my new ML42. For reasons not relevant here, I ordered the boiler without insulation or cladding. I honestly didn't think getting insulation would be a big deal. Now that everything is hooked up, it's time to put the insulation on and my insulation guy has run screaming into the woods because he doesn't want his insulation dealing with all the heat.
So what does P&M use for insulation and maybe even more important, what do you guys use for insulation. I'm planning on foam insulation but could use batten if I have to.
So what does P&M use for insulation and maybe even more important, what do you guys use for insulation. I'm planning on foam insulation but could use batten if I have to.
4
Equipment / Firewood processor build, info needed
« on: October 29, 2012, 03:43:14 PM »
Hi folks,
Now that I've got my replacement wood boiler on order, I know I need to get my log splitter upgraded to a firewood processor. I already have my bar, drive motor, log clamps, steel, etc. on hand and the weather is getting ripe for getting into the shop and making some sparks. I have a question that I'm hoping someone here can answer for me though.
With my processor setup, I plan on having a hydraulically powered chain drive to advance the log into the saw, and a similar setup for the live in-feed deck. I've got the Grainger book, all 10 lbs of it on my desk and I'm trying to pick the chain type I want to use and frankly I'm a bit confused. It seems that everyone uses pretty much the same setup but I'm lost in all the specs. Can anybody recommend to me the type of chain to use on my live deck and infeed setup? I'll match up the sprockets and drive motors to the chain so once I pick the chain I'm off and running.
Oh, and for context, the wood splitter is 44 tons, and the power source is 94hp diesel so I'm not limited by power on this build.
Thank you in advance.
Now that I've got my replacement wood boiler on order, I know I need to get my log splitter upgraded to a firewood processor. I already have my bar, drive motor, log clamps, steel, etc. on hand and the weather is getting ripe for getting into the shop and making some sparks. I have a question that I'm hoping someone here can answer for me though.
With my processor setup, I plan on having a hydraulically powered chain drive to advance the log into the saw, and a similar setup for the live in-feed deck. I've got the Grainger book, all 10 lbs of it on my desk and I'm trying to pick the chain type I want to use and frankly I'm a bit confused. It seems that everyone uses pretty much the same setup but I'm lost in all the specs. Can anybody recommend to me the type of chain to use on my live deck and infeed setup? I'll match up the sprockets and drive motors to the chain so once I pick the chain I'm off and running.
Oh, and for context, the wood splitter is 44 tons, and the power source is 94hp diesel so I'm not limited by power on this build.
Thank you in advance.
5
Legend / Choice between a Portage & Main and Legend
« on: September 26, 2012, 07:29:04 AM »
I am in the process of replacing an Aqua II OWB that has been in place in central NC since the 1980s. The boiler itself works fine but it has always been undersized for the heat load and when the weather gets below about 35 degrees, it cannot keep up no matter how much wood I stuff in it all throughout the day and night. My reason for replacing the boiler now is that the requirements for EPA wood stoves are here and I have no control over when a traditional boiler will still be available. It could be 20 years before NC requires an EPA stove or it could be in the next government session. Either way I figure the old Aqua II has served it's hitch and it's time to replace. (It'll be for sale if anyone is interested. It does work fine)
In case someone wonders why I'm opposed to EPA stoves, my wife likes the smell of the wood fire. She informed me any new wood stove better produce smoke. Since I'd like to be welcome back in the bed on those cold nights, no EPA stove for me. Also we live on a farm so there isn't any issue with neighbors, zoning boards, HOAs, or any other annoyances of modern society. We also have an unlimited supply of wood so efficiency isn't my main concern.
One distinct thing about my setup is that the OWB is actually inside, in a separate building dedicated to the wood stove. You can see what I'm talking about in the first few seconds of this video. Redoing the underground pipes on my wood boiler This is significant because whatever boiler I get HAS to be able to fit inside of the existing space. The most critical limit is a height limitation of 76" but there are other limitations as well. Obviously I'd remove any A frame roofing on an OWB to get clearance. This requirement has eliminated a number of units from my search as they had height issues, length issues, doors, controls, etc. in places that simply wouldn't work in my application, etc.
I have a local vendor who performs all my work so I have no need of a dealer. Based on my experience with the dealers I've met so far, I'm considering that a good thing. Lastly, I'm an accomplished welder so stainless steel vs. mild steel matters to me but not for the normal reasons. I'd prefer to weld on mild steel so if I have a problem later, mild is a plus. Also, we've NEVER treated the water in the existing boiler (I'd never heard of it) and it has survived just fine for 30 years. I'm not worried about corrosion.
I've looked at a number of boilers and have narrowed down to two brands that I am favoring, Portage & Main and Legend (obviously, since I'm posting here.)
Here are the distinctive pros as I see it for each one:
P&M -
Under grate draft. Air is supplied to the bottom of the fire, which I like.
Full penetration welds, both sides. As a welder I can appreciate the difference that makes to strength.
All mild steel. I can weld any cracks.
Can be oversized to my needs. The ML42 is bigger than I actually need, hopefully allowing me to idle for longer periods of time thereby increasing my time between refills. The ML36 is probably the right size, maybe a tad small.
Can be ordered without insulation, cladding, etc. This is a factory option listed on the website. This makes it much easier for me to fit the unit into my building without first taking the unit apart, then installing it.
Johnson controls. My vendor of choice is actually a stock holder with Johnson and is intimately familiar with their products.
Stack is out the back of the unit. This makes it easier for installation.
Legend
Freight. I can drive down and pick it up myself. No freight.
Likely cheaper. It looks like a nice unit, but it sounds like it's built with outside welders hired on a job basis. Doesn't seem like quite the same setup as a dedicated factory.
Maybe able to be build without cladding and insulation, not sure yet. Since a it's local build, I can actually drive down there and talk to them before it's build and likely have it built to my specs. I'll have to investigate this.
Local - For all the reasons above and many more, that's good.
Negatives
P&M
$1500 just for the freight from Canada it looks like.
Cadillacs are expensive and this one will likely be as well.
The exchange rate isn't favorable right now to the US, making it even more expensive than it would normally be.
Legend
It does have some stainless so I could weld it, but I'd have to TIG it instead. No big deal but now I have to remember 10 years from now that this piece is mild, that piece is stainless. Memory isn't my strong suit.
Aqua II was a good stove, but they went out of business. How long will this crowd be around? Just because this fella ran Taylor's shop doesn't mean he can run a business. No offense, it's just a different skill set.
No grate, it's just a big firebox which is different from what I'm used to. I like having the ashes fall into a catch basin under the grate. I can dump the ashes while it's running vs having to clean it out on a separate trip, then re-fire.
The largest unit Legend makes is just barely at my spec for capacity. I like the idea of being oversized.
I'm expecting quotes from both manufacturers shortly so then I'll have hard numbers to compare. Until then I'm trying to get my head straight on which one I prefer while numbers aren't the deciding factor. I definitely like the P&M and I think if they cost exactly the same without freight, I'd buy it over the Legend.
My question to you is, do you see anything I'm missing in my thoughts above? Also, do you see another brand that I should investigate prior to making my final decision?
In case someone wonders why I'm opposed to EPA stoves, my wife likes the smell of the wood fire. She informed me any new wood stove better produce smoke. Since I'd like to be welcome back in the bed on those cold nights, no EPA stove for me. Also we live on a farm so there isn't any issue with neighbors, zoning boards, HOAs, or any other annoyances of modern society. We also have an unlimited supply of wood so efficiency isn't my main concern.
One distinct thing about my setup is that the OWB is actually inside, in a separate building dedicated to the wood stove. You can see what I'm talking about in the first few seconds of this video. Redoing the underground pipes on my wood boiler This is significant because whatever boiler I get HAS to be able to fit inside of the existing space. The most critical limit is a height limitation of 76" but there are other limitations as well. Obviously I'd remove any A frame roofing on an OWB to get clearance. This requirement has eliminated a number of units from my search as they had height issues, length issues, doors, controls, etc. in places that simply wouldn't work in my application, etc.
I have a local vendor who performs all my work so I have no need of a dealer. Based on my experience with the dealers I've met so far, I'm considering that a good thing. Lastly, I'm an accomplished welder so stainless steel vs. mild steel matters to me but not for the normal reasons. I'd prefer to weld on mild steel so if I have a problem later, mild is a plus. Also, we've NEVER treated the water in the existing boiler (I'd never heard of it) and it has survived just fine for 30 years. I'm not worried about corrosion.
I've looked at a number of boilers and have narrowed down to two brands that I am favoring, Portage & Main and Legend (obviously, since I'm posting here.)
Here are the distinctive pros as I see it for each one:
P&M -
Under grate draft. Air is supplied to the bottom of the fire, which I like.
Full penetration welds, both sides. As a welder I can appreciate the difference that makes to strength.
All mild steel. I can weld any cracks.
Can be oversized to my needs. The ML42 is bigger than I actually need, hopefully allowing me to idle for longer periods of time thereby increasing my time between refills. The ML36 is probably the right size, maybe a tad small.
Can be ordered without insulation, cladding, etc. This is a factory option listed on the website. This makes it much easier for me to fit the unit into my building without first taking the unit apart, then installing it.
Johnson controls. My vendor of choice is actually a stock holder with Johnson and is intimately familiar with their products.
Stack is out the back of the unit. This makes it easier for installation.
Legend
Freight. I can drive down and pick it up myself. No freight.
Likely cheaper. It looks like a nice unit, but it sounds like it's built with outside welders hired on a job basis. Doesn't seem like quite the same setup as a dedicated factory.
Maybe able to be build without cladding and insulation, not sure yet. Since a it's local build, I can actually drive down there and talk to them before it's build and likely have it built to my specs. I'll have to investigate this.
Local - For all the reasons above and many more, that's good.
Negatives
P&M
$1500 just for the freight from Canada it looks like.
Cadillacs are expensive and this one will likely be as well.
The exchange rate isn't favorable right now to the US, making it even more expensive than it would normally be.
Legend
It does have some stainless so I could weld it, but I'd have to TIG it instead. No big deal but now I have to remember 10 years from now that this piece is mild, that piece is stainless. Memory isn't my strong suit.
Aqua II was a good stove, but they went out of business. How long will this crowd be around? Just because this fella ran Taylor's shop doesn't mean he can run a business. No offense, it's just a different skill set.
No grate, it's just a big firebox which is different from what I'm used to. I like having the ashes fall into a catch basin under the grate. I can dump the ashes while it's running vs having to clean it out on a separate trip, then re-fire.
The largest unit Legend makes is just barely at my spec for capacity. I like the idea of being oversized.
I'm expecting quotes from both manufacturers shortly so then I'll have hard numbers to compare. Until then I'm trying to get my head straight on which one I prefer while numbers aren't the deciding factor. I definitely like the P&M and I think if they cost exactly the same without freight, I'd buy it over the Legend.
My question to you is, do you see anything I'm missing in my thoughts above? Also, do you see another brand that I should investigate prior to making my final decision?
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