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[caprice_96]

I am looking for advice and opinions on what to do for an underground pipe.  I am new to this OWF world, and I have read old threads, but I am still not sure what to choos.  I will probably need about 100' of pipe, so it won't be cheap.  My land is also generally pretty rocky and has several sections with bedrock (my house has all it's footings on bedrock). 

I have seen that there are numerous options, including Logstor, Thermoplex, 3-wrap, 5-wrap, and I even found this stuff:

http://www.heatlink.com/en/product/138]- [url]http://www.heatlink.com/en/product/138[/url]

What are the pros and cons?  Obviously, cost is an issue, but I'd rather spend more now to save more in the long run.  In other words I am looking for the best bang for the buck, but I want mimimal heat loss and maximum durability. 

I have also talked to someone in my area that made there own line.  He just used pex and solid foam insulation.  He has had is furnace for 15+ years with no issues, but I am not sure what his heat loss is.  He hasn't measured it but claims it doesn't melt the snow.

I am in Ontario, Canada so any one who can point me to dealers of the products is appreciated.  Also, how deep is the pipe typically buried?

[Scott7m]

Don't do your own..   That would be rule number 1, I've yet to see a home made line worth burying.

If you truly want the most bang for the buck, double tile it.  You have rocky soil, so double tiling it will give you twice the protection.  Just as important, it creates an air space round your initial tile that holds the insulation, that in turn makes it more efficient vs having wet soil laying directly on it. 

If I were in rocky soil, that would be what I would recommend.   Even if you went with logstor, I'd still double tile it, foam filled lines can fail too as seen on the forum. 

I think doing a 3 or preferably 5 wrap in this matter would be the most bang for the buck, heat loss on 5 wrap is less than foam filled

[caprice_96]

Thanks for the information.  Any other input is appreciated.  Double tile seems to be a cheap insurance.

[slimjim]

 Double tile is a waste of time and money in my opinion and the only pipe that I use is Logstor, it has a really thick outer layer of black plastic as well as a membrane to keep the foam from gassing off, it is a full 1 inch inside diameter for added flow rate and has 1/2 degree heat loss for every 100 feet of run at only 10 gallons of flow per minute rather you have dry soil or you run it through a pond.

[willieG]

best thing to do Is keep your distance from the house as short as you can (safely) 100 feet of logstor (good pipe) losing 1/2 degree in 100 feet at the temps and gpm suggested on the web site will still count for about 5 million btu per 100 days of heating

although this in my opinion is a very  acceptable amount, what ever can be done to lower this  is good..such as burying your pipe below the frost to keep the ground temps well above the 32 degrees used in the  tests (the lower the  difference in the delta t  between the water temps and the ground temps the less heat loss you will have. if using a second tile (and you can assure no water will get in it)  MAY be an advantage as  the ambient air temp in the tile would likely wick away heat slower than moist soil or water

[Scott7m]

So the delta t, temp inside your pex package, to the outside makes no difference???

So ur saying if it's 40 below or 100, the pipes gonna lose the same amount of heat?  And that dry soil vs wet soil makes no difference?? 

I agree that logstor is a good product, one of my favorites, but to think giving it another layer of protection as well as keeping it dry is useless dont make much sense.  In areas where it's extremely rocky the tile can still fail, if it took a sharp rock 8 years to wear a hole in logstor, I would have rather spent an extra 80 bucks or whatever on a tile to slide it through and have it last 15 years. 

[d conover]

I agree with Scott about double tiling, it doesn't cost that much more and I like the idea I can yank all my pipe out of the ground and replace it without digging at all. 

Hope I never have to.....

[Scott7m]

best thing to do Is keep your distance from the house as short as you can (safely) 100 feet of logstor (good pipe) losing 1/2 degree in 100 feet at the temps and gpm suggested on the web site will still count for about 5 million btu per 100 days of heating

although this in my opinion is a very  acceptable amount, what ever can be done to lower this  is good..such as burying your pipe below the frost to keep the ground temps well above the 32 degrees used in the  tests (the lower the  difference in the delta t  between the water temps and the ground temps the less heat loss you will have. if using a second tile (and you can assure no water will get in it)  MAY be an advantage as  the ambient air temp in the tile would likely wick away heat slower than moist soil or water

Your right Willie, a 6-7 month heating cycle even with logstor and the numbers he provided would still loose over 10 millions btu at a minimum

[slimjim]

OK guys run what you like, I know what I went through when I put the cheap stuff in the ground that the dealer talked me into. I will not sell it to my customers.

[Scott7m]

Slim, I don't think anyone says logstor isn't good, but what could giving it more protection hurt, as cheap as it is to do, and also how do you think that it doesn't matter what the surrounding temps and ground conditions are?!??

Logstor compared to cb's stuff is far better, much heavier casing, I was recently at a meeting where guys do big commercial type jobs and they were not fans of logstor at all, however there jobs are really large and may do 100k worth of line or more per job, those guys were all big on rehau pipe. 

[johnybcold]

I am a noob this was my second season but I can say for sure Use good insulated pipe and bury it deep, I have a long run too and dug it by hand and at a certain point ya hit another rock and it is like aa ahh maybe this section won't be as deep, get a backhoe dig a nice trunch it also makes getting it in the house easier, you want the pipe to come in the house straight, the pipe is stiff so you need the truch nice and straight (level) before the house.

[slimjim]

Yeah Rehau is a good pipe as well ,and most of those jobs that are being done with their pipe is payed for by the American taxpayer, think about it, five years ago my supply house quoted me the price (wholesale) of Rehau at $26 per foot for comparible pipe to Urecons dual pex flex, I sell Urecon locally for $14 per foot delivered (and that is something else to consider as it takes up a lot of space on the truck), Shipping typically costs around 500-1000 dollars per roll regardless of how long a run you require as it still takes up 2 pallet spaces on the truck.Not saying that maybe somebody is padding their pockets on those big jobs but it's only money! Gotta get ready for the logging expo in Bangor, Me. I'll bring my laptop and camera for those who can't be there and I won't forget my sample bag of the best pipe on the market.  Richard @ PM

[Scott7m]

Yeah Rehau is a good pipe as well ,and most of those jobs that are being done with their pipe is payed for by the American taxpayer, think about it, five years ago my supply house quoted me the price (wholesale) of Rehau at $26 per foot for comparible pipe to Urecons dual pex flex, I sell Urecon locally for $14 per foot delivered (and that is something else to consider as it takes up a lot of space on the truck), Shipping typically costs around 500-1000 dollars per roll regardless of how long a run you require as it still takes up 2 pallet spaces on the truck.Not saying that maybe somebody is padding their pockets on those big jobs but it's only money! Gotta get ready for the logging expo in Bangor, Me. I'll bring my laptop and camera for those who can't be there and I won't forget my sample bag of the best pipe on the market.  Richard @ PM

Yea, I donno what's happened to the price, but I think I can buy Rehau cheaper than Logstor at this time. 

[mlappin]

Has anybody ever successfully changed their pipe by having whatever you used inside another pipe?

Just wondering as we install our own drain tile here at the farm and with the corrugations used on the pipe trying to slide it thru another piece of corrugated tile might be a joke at best. Maybe if the inner one was slid thru a 6" smooth bore plastic sewer pipe?

I also know the stuff my cousin installed (from Central Boiler perhaps) is stiff enough that again you'd play holy hell trying to get it to slide around any corners.

[Sprinter]

Has anybody ever successfully changed their pipe by having whatever you used inside another pipe?

Just wondering as we install our own drain tile here at the farm and with the corrugations used on the pipe trying to slide it thru another piece of corrugated tile might be a joke at best. Maybe if the inner one was slid thru a 6" smooth bore plastic sewer pipe?

I also know the stuff my cousin installed (from Central Boiler perhaps) is stiff enough that again you'd play holy hell trying to get it to slide around any corners.

Yeah I don't think so , or worse yet when the outer shell gets full of water and holds it on the pipe your trying to protect.  Those dead air spaces always fill with water if there not filled with something to keep it out. It's only a matter of time. 

Rehau, logstor , Uponor Wirsbo  insulated lines don't fail ever, the installers lack of a proper bed/backfill  or lack of extra protection did.  Anything can be made to fail in the wrong hands. Regardless of the recklace btu numbers thrown around , there is nothing better than these brands readily available on the market.


So a 1/2 degree loss in 100' at 5gpm & 180' = 1250 btu/hr x 24hr = 30kbtu/day x 182 days = 5.46mbtu/6 months

Compared to magic bubble or loose closed cell foam wrap with same flow specs but a 10 degree loss/100'
= 25kbtu/hr x 24hr = 600kbtu x 182 days = 109.2mbtu/6 months
I've seen anywhere from 6 degree loss to 18 degree loss per 100' at more than 5 GPM flow. If your snow is melting even a little bit you have more than a 6 degree loss.
If in anyway shape or form one of those fancy wrapped lines truly did perform as good or even a tiny bit better than the high dollar brands. Those multimillion dollar companies would be buying the rights to manufacturer or at least copying.  AND if any of those fancy wrapped homemade pipes did perform even as good or close, they would show full detailed side by side tests, and or at least a claim on their website, ......" Ours tests as good or within 1 degree of logstor, central pex, rehau,  Uponor". But they don't cuz they can't. Best you get is some claim where a few numbers are posted that look good, without the rest of the test data.

If fact one of those pipes does show >1 degree loss at 16 GPM. More than triple the speed.