Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: slosh250 on February 14, 2012, 02:36:58 PM
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anyone have any experience with the armstrong E series pumps, was looking at the E9 as the primary and maybe E8 or E7 for my DHW. Any input would be great. I have about 80-90 ft between the HX and boiler. Also same for hot water heater.
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Yea they are great pumps but why not just one set of lines and one pump and install a 20 plate exchanger, it's simpler and works much better
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I never used them but they look like nice pumps. I use the B&G PL series because they are pretty much the same but cheaper.
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The only reason is the budget right now, as you know i purchesed a used hardy h2. I already have the lines that were new when i bought the h2. Second reason i have no knowledge of how the plate exchanger works, also why are these pump better than a taco but are cheaper? What would the recomended size's be for the run i have? Sorry for all the Q's i'm a newbie.
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What size Taco are you comparing it to? An E9 will be at least $250. A B&G PL36 is closer to $200
The Armstrong E series, Bell and Gossett PL series and Taco 2400 series are all dry rotor pumps. They use 30 to 50% less power than equivalent size wet rotor pumps.
A dry rotor pump is pretty much just an ordinary motor with a shaft seal where it enters the pump housing. The only moving part of the pump that is in contact with the water is a little bit of the shaft and the impeller.
A wet rotor pump has the rotor pretty much floating on water. The magnetic field to turn the rotor goes through the water and there are no liquid tight seals on any rotating parts.
There isn't a lot of clearance so dirty water can freeze them up or wear the rotor. If run dry they die fast. They also have a bushing at the end than gets chewed up from dirty water.
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Comparing it to a 009 which is common for the hardy h2 i guess? Seen one for sale (new) for 120 for the E9. Going to keep that a secret as there is only 1 left ;D We have a little lime but i dont think its that bad.
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Is it new? If so, that is a steal.
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Yea just a opened box. Should i go for it? would it support the 80-90 ft in 3/4 pipe to a 18x20 HX ?
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It should work much better than a Taco 009. If you don't buy it, let me know and I will.
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thing is he only has 1 and i want to run all the same pumps if possible so.
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thing is he only has 1 and i want to run all the same pumps if possible so.
You def don't need that good of a pump for your applications... A taco 007 would likely do it given your 3/4 set up.. They have a 3 year warranty and are usually like 70 bucks
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The 3/4" might be a problem for something as small as a 007.
The pumps have universal flanges so not really any need to keep them all the same. They could have the flanges rotated 90 degrees though so you would need swivel flanges if you want to interchange them.
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Maybe so rsi, I see the hardy dealer here puts them on his installs
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They put a single 007 on a 90' run of 3/4" pex? They can be doing more than a couple GPM.
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Now i'm really confused. If the taco 007 are so cheap and would work why couldnt i go that route? What was on the unit was a 009 and it was ruined beyond repair. so i was figuring thats the equivilent that needed to go back on it. The house is the most important and would be used the most, shop would be set on 45 or so and turned up when i want to tinker. its the same pull and hx. hot water heater just used at night and dishwasher. I am all new to this and on a tight budget but also want to make things last. thanks for your input
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I am working on calculating flow based on restriction on the 180' round trip of 3/4" pex. It looks like the E9 will do about 6.5 GPM and the 007 will do 3 GPM.
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Looks like an 009 will do about 5gpm.
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What is ideal? I know i'm on a budget but if i need to save a little long to do it right i will. wont hook this all up till the summer/fall for next winter. what would the E9 do?
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5 gpm is not much. as best i would guess bare minimum if even enough
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Looks like a Grundfos 15-58 would do about 4gpm.
All these numbers are for just the underground line itself so you will probably get a little less on all of them.
So, going off my calculations I came up with these numbers for the 180' round trip of 3/4" pex.
Taco 007: 3GPM
Grundfos 15-58: 4GPM
Taco 009: 5 GPM
Armstrong E9 6.5 GPM
I used the pressure drop numbers at this site and looked at the curve charts for all the pumps so they are not exact. http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf (http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf)
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so maybe the e9 for the house? 007 or grundfos 15-58 for the other 2 applications? Are the B&G NRF-22 worth messing with? I am shying away from the plate exchanger because our water isnt the greatest and all my install "help" is only familiar with the traditional hardy setup
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so maybe the e9 for the house? 007 or grundfos 15-58 for the other 2 applications? Are the B&G NRF-22 worth messing with? I am shying away from the plate exchanger because our water isnt the greatest and all my install "help" is only familiar with the traditional hardy setup
Don't have much faith in that coil for hot water on the hardy's, a buddy of mine has well water and had 2 of them plug up in 7 years!
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but on the plate exchanger dont you have to have clean water in your furnace as it is the same water you would bath and wash you clothes in? We have a lime problem but i dont think its to bad.
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but on the plate exchanger dont you have to have clean water in your furnace as it is the same water you would bath and wash you clothes in? We have a lime problem but i dont think its to bad.
If you mean the same water coming out the faucet as circulating in the boiler the answer is no. The plate heat exchanger is doing the same thing the coil in the furnace is doing. Just in a different place.
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see i'm still learning. cost would be about the same to do either system ? plate would be more efficient? how do you figure how many plates you need?
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if you leave your homes hot water tank in operation you could use your coil in teh OWB to supply your home with hot water with NO PUMP
your homes cold water line would be hooked to one pipe of your coil and be pushed by the homes pressure system to the OWB and return hot and go into your homes hot water tank. by leaving yoru homes hot water tank on it would hold the temp when no water was going through the lines. upon opening the hot water tap water would agin go to the OWB, there would be cool water in the lines from not moving for a while but that little bit of cold water going into the tank would not likley amount to much and the tank of hot water could absorb this cool water momentarily as the good hot water would be close behind.
at 5 or 6 gpm from your pipe you amy require all the btu it can deliver on a cold night to heat yoru home
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Do you already have the insulated pipe? If so is it all in one or 2 separate sets?
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slosh, I have a H2 also and my loop is close to 500 feet going through 2 water to air heat ex. and I used 3/4 inch pex. This is a c/p of a post I made earlier on here
"Thanks for the replys, I ask the question at .ctwoodfurnace.com/ and was told that the taco 013 would work but the Taco 2400-20-WB Wood Boiler Series, High Capacity Circulators was what he recommended. This is what I ordered so when it comes in I will let you know how it works.
Thanks
Bull "
It is working great and I use the loop in the OWB for my hot water
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RSI- I just have 4 individual pex pipes 3/4'' . Going to insulate them myself.
Bull- So my 180ft loop shouldnt be that bad. or if i just buy 1 bigger pump and run the 360ft through 2 hx's. My father in law has the loop hooked up about 250ft through 2 hx's on a taco009 for 4 years no troubles yet. Running his dhw with a 007 through the hardy loop. Was looking to get a good dry type pump to maybe last awhile and be more efficient.
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Furnace is 72,000 max btu its a mobie home(32x80) with electric heat.
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i think you have about 15 feet of head in the pipe of 160 feet. to get 8 gpm you would need (from the taco chart) an 0011 or 0013. this would put you about the middle of the pump curve (where you should be) and 8 GPM would give you (at 180 degree water) 80,000 btu per hour and that is likley near what your original home furnace is (just a guess) you can find that info on the name plate somewhere.
depending where you are and what your winters are like you can size yoru pump for how many GPM you need
every GPM at 180 delivers 10,000 btu to your home in you want only 6 GPM you can look on a pump flow chart for 15 feet of head at 6 GPM and aim to find that required GPM near the middle of the pumps flow chart (as stated before this head loss is only for the pipe not for inside the house or the loss at exchangers (that is a good reason to aim for the middle of the pumps flow chart or go up a foot or 2 of head
How did you come up with 15 feet of head at 8 gpm? Using this chart for 8 gpm you need to multiply the length by 0.140 then multiply by 2.307. My calculations come out to almost 52 feet of heat on 160'. Am I doing something wrong?
http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf (http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf)
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How did you come up with 15 feet of head at 8 gpm? Using this chart for 8 gpm you need to multiply the length by 0.140 then multiply by 2.307. My calculations come out to almost 52 feet of heat on 160'. Am I doing something wrong?
http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf (http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf)
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maybe i made the mistake..
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How did you come up with 15 feet of head at 8 gpm? Using this chart for 8 gpm you need to multiply the length by 0.140 then multiply by 2.307. My calculations come out to almost 52 feet of heat on 160'. Am I doing something wrong?
http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf (http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf)
maybe i made the mistake..
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you are absolutely right, my bad eyes i got in teh wrong line (iwas at 1 inch=.041)
i appologise deeply slosh disregaurd my post
in fact i will delete it so not to confuse you
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RSI thanks for catching my goof up :post:
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slosh, I have a H2 also and my loop is close to 500 feet going through 2 water to air heat ex. and I used 3/4 inch pex. This is a c/p of a post I made earlier on here
"Thanks for the replys, I ask the question at .ctwoodfurnace.com/ and was told that the taco 013 would work but the Taco 2400-20-WB Wood Boiler Series, High Capacity Circulators was what he recommended. This is what I ordered so when it comes in I will let you know how it works.
Thanks
Bull "
It is working great and I use the loop in the OWB for my hot water
bull do you know how many GPM you are getting the chart on the pump you say you are using only goes to 34 feet of head?
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Bull- Is that taco pump your using a dry rotor type pump or a wet? Would like to have a dry rotor like the armstrong E9 but havent really gotten any flows or anything on it. Think i may just do the loop with 1 connection at the owb or may get that in 1 piece, the shop isnt that important to heat but all my wood is free to me and very easy to get so i dont mind burning some extra.
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slosh, I have a H2 also and my loop is close to 500 feet going through 2 water to air heat ex. and I used 3/4 inch pex. This is a c/p of a post I made earlier on here
"Thanks for the replys, I ask the question at .ctwoodfurnace.com/ and was told that the taco 013 would work but the Taco 2400-20-WB Wood Boiler Series, High Capacity Circulators was what he recommended. This is what I ordered so when it comes in I will let you know how it works.
Thanks
Bull "
It is working great and I use the loop in the OWB for my hot water
bull do you know how many GPM you are getting the chart on the pump you say you are using only goes to 34 feet of head?
Looks like a little over 2 gpm is all a taco 2400-20 could do on 500' of 3/4" pex
This is just using the calculations. I never tested any to see if it actually came out the same.
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Bull- Is that taco pump your using a dry rotor type pump or a wet? Would like to have a dry rotor like the armstrong E9 but havent really gotten any flows or anything on it. Think i may just do the loop with 1 connection at the owb or may get that in 1 piece, the shop isnt that important to heat but all my wood is free to me and very easy to get so i dont mind burning some extra.
Bull's pump is a dry rotor.
If you didn't buy that pump off ebay you will spend less buying 1" pex than the difference in the pump prices to get one big enough. (an e9 is close to $300 but there are others closer to $200 that a similar)
If you go with 1" a Grundfos 15-58 will probably pump as much as the E9 would on the 3/4" and it will use less power. Also if the big pump dies you have to buy a $200+ replacement instead of around $100.
Also with the 1" pipe you have the option of putting the larger pump on and getting a lot more flow than would be possible with the 3/4"
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RSI- how did you know it was on ebay? You must have bought it because it was gone today. Anyways i think i will just run the 320ft loop and keep it simple, what are the dry rotor make and models that would be good for my application? I'll wait for a good priced one on ebay so i'm in no hurry just want to have it all by the time of install. And what would a good pump be for the 160-180 ft pull on the dhw as i am probly just going to use the coil in the furnace for now. I'm tryin to at least get 4-5 years out of this setup and go to somthing bigger maybe an h4 or bigger in the future. Thanks RSI and willie and others for your patience with me and all your input i would really be lost without you guys
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No, I didn't buy it. I found it right after you posted about it and was watching it. I would have bought it if I knew you weren't.
Other than people here, I have never heard of using cast iron pumps on DHW. I always use bronze.
There aren't really any small dry rotor pumps. A B&G PL30 is the smallest that I know of. An Armstrong E7 might be smaller but not sure. (I didn't look it up)
If you setup the DHW loop so the cold water has to travel to the coil in the boiler before going into the water heater tank then you can just use a small pump to recirculate and won't need it near as big. A Taco 005 or 006 will probably work.
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Slosh, sorry but I have no idea of the numbers on head pressure that you asked about. I was to far into my setup before I ran across this site. I was told by some that my setup would not work according to the charts but I remembered back on my fire fighting training about how much pressure you loose per section of hose and how I connected enough together that I "should not" have any pressure but did and even checked it with a pitot tube so sometimes the numbers are not correct.
As for your DHW I don't use a pump. I run the cold to the H2 through the coil and back to the hot water heater just using the house pressure.
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i think you have about 15 feet of head in the pipe of 160 feet. to get 8 gpm you would need (from the taco chart) an 0011 or 0013. this would put you about the middle of the pump curve (where you should be) and 8 GPM would give you (at 180 degree water) 80,000 btu per hour and that is likley near what your original home furnace is (just a guess) you can find that info on the name plate somewhere.
depending where you are and what your winters are like you can size yoru pump for how many GPM you need
every GPM at 180 delivers 10,000 btu to your home in you want only 6 GPM you can look on a pump flow chart for 15 feet of head at 6 GPM and aim to find that required GPM near the middle of the pumps flow chart (as stated before this head loss is only for the pipe not for inside the house or the loss at exchangers (that is a good reason to aim for the middle of the pumps flow chart or go up a foot or 2 of head
How did you come up with 15 feet of head at 8 gpm? Using this chart for 8 gpm you need to multiply the length by 0.140 then multiply by 2.307. My calculations come out to almost 52 feet of heat on 160'. Am I doing something wrong?
http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf (http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf)
Uh......... Gentlemen, you do know your using the wrong chart...right? That is a different head loss calculation, it doesn't figure friction head loss as a rate of flow. Combined it is called total dynamic head loss , And the more gpm you flow the head goes up exponentially. That chart is specifically for potable water supply lines ( toilets,faucets, etc) from a plumbing code book. 10 gpm at 180* supplies 100,000 btu/hr which is big enuff to heat some big homes. You need to look at a pump chart like this
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf (http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf)
But before you do that, you need to know your heat load, how many BTU's you need all together. This will give you how many gpms you will need to flow. Also in that chart you will be able to see how much a 3/4 line can actually supply and whether you need to go larger or not. There is a reason 007,15-58 pumps are the most popular sizes, since they can supply over 150kbtu/hr on the right sized pipe. But if you exceed 10' head loss that 007 wont pump squat. Hopefully this helps a little
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Help please, I need someone to do the calculations for my owb. Piping is 160' round trip using 1" regular pex and approx 4' of lift. I am going through a filter, 5x12 heat plate, and a 18x18 heat coil. Any suggestion for the pump I will need?
Thanks
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That bell and gosset 36 would likely be a good choice