Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: ecc_33 on January 28, 2015, 03:14:44 PM
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I have 5 wrap going to the boiler and right were I spliced the 100 foot rolls together from there to the boiler the snow is melting. Its barried 3 feet deep so I know im loosing heat like crazy. I have a good pic but this piece of sheet site won't let me post the pic? Im not loosing water in the boiler. Any ideas?
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The only thing I can think of is that water is getting into the wrap at the splice and riding the pex down to the boiler. I hope my stuff isn't ruined.
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The only thing I can think of is that water is getting into the wrap at the splice and riding the pex down to the boiler. I hope my stuff isn't ruined.
if water is getting in the joint. I think it would be advisable to tell you to digit up as soon as possible to try and stop the water from migrating any further than it has. you (if you can) may be able to dig up the joint and dig around it without disturbing the pipe and reseal it with some sort of wrap and minimize the damage.
if water is getting in, it will migrate downhill and may actually fill even uphill if the water pressure is high enough (or you have no tile near by to take away the water)
good luck
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Yea That's what I thought too. Thanks. I did hit two field tiles right by the boiler but fixed them as I dug the trench. Im going to be very upset if I don't have logstor pex and was sold what I was thought to be logstor! The stuff I have is in a 4" field tile looking black pipe with foam looking blue wrap with a thin layer of alumn foil lightly around each wrap. Most areas of the wrap is 6 layers thick. It has a light plastic wrap around all of that and then inside the black pipe. It is inch pex.
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https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A2KK_dAIeMlUH4MBpG.bvZx4?p=logstor+pex+pics&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1 Mine looks like this just with the two inch lines. Bottom line 3rd pic over. If I could post pics I WOULD POST A PIC OF WHAT I HAVE!!!!
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I don't believe the words "wrap" and "logstor" belong in the same sentence? But perhaps there is such a thing? Some one else may have heard of it but I surely haven't
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Thanks Willie. I feel violated!
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Definitely not Logster,
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Now I have smoke rolling out my ears as to know what I payed for this sheet! I hope I am wrong and the reputable dealer from this site that sold me all this stuff didn't in fact intentionally screw me.
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perhaps it was sold to you at the right price and the word logstor was slipped out unintentionally?
I live in Ontario Canada and I just bought logstor for my sons application and it was 13.85 per foot i'm not sure what good wrapped products are going for?
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I sold it to you and never once told you it was logstor, you initially ordered around 100 ft of badger 5 wrap and then ordered another 100 feet, I didn't realize you were splicing it and around 8 bucks a foot is average pricing at the time for 5 wrap. If you'd ordered logstor at that time it would have been 12.90/ft plus shipping
Logstor doesn't even make wrapped products, they only sell foam filled pipe
I'm not sure why you thought you were getting logstor but think you'd known the difference when you buried it???????
Evidently where you spliced it tho is leaking and allowing water into the pipe, where ever the splice is dig it up and see if u can address it or perhaps dig a hole under the splice and back fill with gravel so water doesn't Lay around the pipe and sinks on down
Sorry if I came of blunt but I've never sold a product as logstor that wasnt, I don't even see how the 2 could be confused
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Underground splice is not a good idea. It can be done but should be avoided.
Don't blame a good dealer for not knowing what your situation is. You put in an order, he ships it out. If you asked him about splicing it, I'm sure he would have advised against it.
Sorry to hear it has happened. Get your shovel warmed up.
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Yahoo is blowing smoke, some of the pictures are of thermopex, the very last picture is definitely not Logstor.
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you have a problem now and need to deal with it. I am sure splices can be done (although I agree they should be avoided if at all possible) You need to search out the very best splice kit that is available and then add some of your own insurance. (what ever you can come up with)
after ding the recommended splice (what ever that may be) I would try some of that 4 inch wide "electrician" type tape or maybe some of that new rubber in a spray can..and perhaps when that was all done a good thick layer of grease and burlap
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I have a good pic but this piece of sheet site won't let me post the pic?
I find it ironic that you call this site a "piece of sheet" but you are asking its members for help? Not too many sites out there with the sheer level/knowledge of outdoor wood-burning furnace professionals and seasoned operators we have here. Try a more friendly approach my friend and you will receive more responses and information.
Also, if you desire to post pictures, use a remote picture-hosting website. This has been stated 100s of times throughout the site. Thanks.
LINK: HOW TO POST Photos 101 (Click Here) (http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=7174.0)
LINK: A "How To" for Posting Pictures from a Picture-Hosting Website (Click Here) (http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=6681.msg54370#msg54370)
-Slopster
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Another problem will be getting the water out of the tile. You say it is running down towards your boiler. Assuming the pipe turns up to your boiler, that water is trapped in there. I suppose it may evaporate over time.
You're gonna have to dig a pretty big hole to address your splice. Whatever you decide to fix it with, you will have to wrap all the way around the tile. We use some bad-ass sticky rubber for flat roofs called Flint-Tastic. $100 for a roll. If you were closer I would give you some.
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If it was me, I would dig around the splice clean it, then spray it with high density foam.
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I sold it to you and never once told you it was logstor, you initially ordered around 100 ft of badger 5 wrap and then ordered another 100 feet, I didn't realize you were splicing it and around 8 bucks a foot is average pricing at the time for 5 wrap. If you'd ordered logstor at that time it would have been 12.90/ft plus shipping
Logstor doesn't even make wrapped products, they only sell foam filled pipe
I'm not sure why you thought you were getting logstor but think you'd known the difference when you buried it???????
Evidently where you spliced it tho is leaking and allowing water into the pipe, where ever the splice is dig it up and see if u can address it or perhaps dig a hole under the splice and back fill with gravel so water doesn't Lay around the pipe and sinks on down
Sorry if I came of blunt but I've never sold a product as logstor that wasnt, I don't even see how the 2 could be confused
First off I want to apologize. For some reason I did think I purchased logstor and didn't. I have the 5 wrap you are talking about after looking at passed emails. Its been a long day and got even longer after I got home with some personal stuff. Anyways, sorry and yes, It is the 5 wrap. I am "retarded" when it comes to most boiler stuff and jumped to conclusions. I didn't know the difference. Was taking your word for it. It was the truth as always and apologize again.
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I have a good pic but this piece of sheet site won't let me post the pic?
I find it ironic that you call this site a "piece of sheet" but you are asking its members for help? Not too many sites out there with the sheer level/knowledge of outdoor wood-burning furnace professionals and seasoned operators we have here. Try a more friendly approach my friend and you will receive more responses and information.
-Slopster
I didn't call the people on this site a piece. The site is crap. Plain and simple. Its not the members. I am a member on multiple sites and can post thousand of pics and no one at any time has to come along and delete/ clean up a site so someone can use the attachment option on the site. That's what I meant. I agree Its not to splice a line when using underground pex. At the point when I bought the first roll of pex I thought I would put the boiler close to the house. After changes and further changes for future plans I had to move it farther. Basement was poured around the pex and half the pex was in. I chose to splice and go. Live and learn. Im young and it happens. Sorry Scott again, I truly feel bad for that screw up.
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So lets get to the conclusion. I top off the boiler maybe once every two months and put maybe a couple gallons in. Before I tare the crap out of my yard everyone agrees that's were its leaking? I guess the only way to know for sure is dig it up and look. I hate to do this but don't have very many choices. I thought about waiting till spring and digging that whole section up and back filling with 57's just to help bring it up a little and leach. Now its got me wondering Scott if I used those stainless band clamps I got from that supplier by mistake. hmmmm. I might just get the back hoe out Saturday and go on a adventure.
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I guess there is no sure way to tell where it is leaking...where it is melting the earth above the pipe is likely the lowest spot in the pipe. but an educated guess would say the likely hood of where the leak is would be the splice (unless a stone or something has worked it's way through the tile or it was damaged at installation you splice it? if so you know what you did, now think long and hard and come to your own conclusion on whether or not the splice could have failed. also when did you notice this melting..perhaps it was a mild day and if this is a low spot in the yard it may be the first spot to melt off a little?
Before you dig...be sure you have a problem
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I have a good pic but this piece of sheet site won't let me post the pic?
I find it ironic that you call this site a "piece of sheet" but you are asking its members for help? Not too many sites out there with the sheer level/knowledge of outdoor wood-burning furnace professionals and seasoned operators we have here. Try a more friendly approach my friend and you will receive more responses and information.
-Slopster
I didn't call the people on this site a piece. The site is crap. Plain and simple. Its not the members. I am a member on multiple sites and can post thousand of pics and no one at any time has to come along and delete/ clean up a site so someone can use the attachment option on the site. That's what I meant. I agree Its not to splice a line when using underground pex. At the point when I bought the first roll of pex I thought I would put the boiler close to the house. After changes and further changes for future plans I had to move it farther. Basement was poured around the pex and half the pex was in. I chose to splice and go. Live and learn. Im young and it happens. Sorry Scott again, I truly feel bad for that screw up.
Dude. It's a FREE site that is a valuable resource. Don't insult it. If it's crap to you, please, leave and don't return. LOTS of others post pictures ALL THE TIME with no problems. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't make the site bad.
If you'd been reading this site more, you'd have seen all the advice about how important the underground line is for heating with an OWB. You would have realized you should have NEVER spliced something together as important as your underground line. It's a mistake you made, and people are helping you with ideas on how to fix it, even though you ridicule this site. That shows you the classy site members on this site.
This should be you for awhile ------------> :bag:
Just my $0.02...
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Let's not get carried away to far here.. first of all apology accepted
Now let's try to fix this
If the splice is the source of the leak only dig there to see if it's there... if it is leaking there let's see what can he done. I would see if the pipe is filled with water to the point it could be siphoned out, if it has then get as much out as possible.
Where it's spliced I would try to make a dry zone around the joint, I would dig under it and fill with stone and fill with stone in a circle around and over the joint as then no water could stand around the joint and weasel in. If you see where it's leaking, pm here and I'll send you out a seal I've recently acquired for such issues,it's a rubberized shrink wrap seal that you can put on with a heat gun. Be very very careful tho, the melting point of the shrink wrap is not a lot cooler than that of the black tile but it can be done
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Don't run him off for having a bad day. It happens. This thread will be a good learning tool for everyone by the time the story is over.
If your losing a gallon or 2 per month, it could be leaking from the clamps. Only 1 way to find out.
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Don't run him off for having a bad day. It happens. This thread will be a good learning tool for everyone by the time the story is over.
If your losing a gallon or 2 per month, it could be leaking from the clamps. Only 1 way to find out.
I just think it's ground water infiltrating his pipe
A gallon a month on that stove is normal
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Wouldn't you have to take the pex lines apart to use the heat shrink?
If you do take them apart and use the heat shrink, take a piece of the corrugated and cut a slot on one side so you can pop it over the two pipes. It will hold them together much more solid. Then slide the heat shrink over that.
Fernco rubber couplers seems to work really well for splicing the corrugated pipe if you don't use the heat shrink. That would also require taking the pex apart.
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I have splices on my wrapped pex but I made sure I ordered enough that comes from the stove and about 12ft into my basement. In my basement is where I have the splices. Im not sure if I missed it but what clamps/crimps did you use? I used cheap ones my first time around and never again. Leak after leak!
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I guess I missed something here. I thought he had water infiltrating the tile at the splice of the tiles. Now it sounds like he is losing water from the system at a splice in the pex lines. Which is it?
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Thank Scott and once again sorry. I have a photo bucket account and once time allows I will post pics. Ok so the snow is melting in the middle of my yard. From the middle of my yard to the boiler. The pex makes a L shaped jog all down hill torwards the boiler. Im with you Scott. The neighbors boiler boils off way more water than mine. If my memory services me correct, I used those stainless band clamps on the splices when I did it. I didn't bury the line for a few months so I new it wasn't leaking. I would have to split the lines anyways so I could put the right clamps on them. Scott remember you sent me that real expensive roll of black tape for my splice? Looked like electrical tape. I wonder if its got something to do with the splice in the pex line and water getting into that part of the tile from those field tiles leaching up the trench under ground? Either way im not loosing much so i'll wait till spring and dig up the splice. That way I can get my service truck down to the boiler and draw a vacuum on the boiler water so I don't loose much. I'll be thankful of my little backhoe! I'll be sure to post what I find for future reference. I'll also pay close attention on how much water im putting in the boiler. More I think about it I think water is leaching into the open end of that tile and just riding the pex down to the boiler.
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I do remember someone getting badgers splice repair stuff but I didn't remember it being you. Have you noticed a big increase in wood use.
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Several people have recommended digging a hole under the splice and filling it with stone. If you do this you should really try to install some perforated pipe and clean stone under the splice and daylight it somewhere to allow the water to drain out of the trench. I understand this may not be possible. The problem with just digging a hole underneath and filling it with stone is that most ground water issues are caused by a high water table. At certain times of the year the water table most likely rises to the depth of your pipe, even if you have a stone filled hole underneath your pipe, it will still be in water unless you give the water a way to get out of the trench.
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That could be true but I was thinking in his location the water table is usually fairly deep, but it could be
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That could be true but I was thinking in his location the water table is usually fairly deep, but it could be
You may be correct. Water tables vary based on location, soils, etc. I don't know his particular situation but it is something I would recommend that he consider and maybe do a little research on before proceeding with a fix.
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That way I can get my service truck down to the boiler and draw a vacuum on the boiler water so I don't loose much
Don't you have valves at the boiler? If not, I would put them on while you are working on the pipe. I would be very careful putting a vacuum on the boiler. It could easily damage the water jacket.
Did you use the stainless cinch clamps with the ear that gets pinched with a tool? If so, are there any marking on the clamps? (something OET 29.6)
What brand of tool did you use? There are a lot of junk tools out there now that don't squeeze the ear properly. Also some require calibration and if not set right can either cause the clamps to break it too tight or leak if too loose.
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http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/ecc_33/media/boiler%20melting%20snow%205_zps3gkalvx6_1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/ecc_33/media/boiler%20melting%20snow%205_zps3gkalvx6_1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0) hope that worked
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I do remember someone getting badgers splice repair stuff but I didn't remember it being you. Have you noticed a big increase in wood use.
Yea, It was me. No, That's whats crazy. As you can see in the pics its roughly 80 feet that's unthawed. You would think it would be using more wood. Its also been really cold. I've been burning swamp elm, cherry, ash mixed. Not the best wood but also not the worst. The only thing ive noticed this year is the hot water is lacking. Takes along time to catch back up but I think my plate exchanger is plugging up and I just need to take it out this spring and soak it in something to get the scale out of it.
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That way I can get my service truck down to the boiler and draw a vacuum on the boiler water so I don't loose much
Don't you have valves at the boiler? If not, I would put them on while you are working on the pipe. I would be very careful putting a vacuum on the boiler. It could easily damage the water jacket.
Did you use the stainless cinch clamps with the ear that gets pinched with a tool? If so, are there any marking on the clamps? (something OET 29.6)
What brand of tool did you use? There are a lot of junk tools out there now that don't squeeze the ear properly. Also some require calibration and if not set right can either cause the clamps to break it too tight or leak if too loose.
I shouldn't be able to vac it down enough to ever hurt it. If so every cooling system and hyd system I've done would be ruined. No. Basically a fancy hose clamp that I accidently got and used. I went to menards and bought a really nice band clamping tool with those brass clamps and used them in the house. The tool is a master force with a bunch of different dies. I think the water table isn't real low here. I wonder if I should have went 2 feet down instead of 3.
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That picture looks like what I had last year even when it was zero.
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That way I can get my service truck down to the boiler and draw a vacuum on the boiler water so I don't loose much
Don't you have valves at the boiler? If not, I would put them on while you are working on the pipe. I would be very careful putting a vacuum on the boiler. It could easily damage the water jacket.
Did you use the stainless cinch clamps with the ear that gets pinched with a tool? If so, are there any marking on the clamps? (something OET 29.6)
What brand of tool did you use? There are a lot of junk tools out there now that don't squeeze the ear properly. Also some require calibration and if not set right can either cause the clamps to break it too tight or leak if too loose.
:post: One of the best things I have done with mine is put shutoff valves at the boiler for when you need to work on it.
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My Pro 400 I just had to add 2 gallons after 3 months. This is just evaporation. It almost sounds like the splice is not actually leaking but water in the wrap.
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Just a wild stab in the dark here......
It looks to me like maybe a clamp came loose on either the boiler inlet or outlet and maybe allowed a few gallons of water to make it's way down into the wrap. The melt looks to be worse nearest the boiler.
You did seal the ends properly, right?
I know of one local instance where the boiler end wasn't sealed properly and several gallons ended up in the pex pipe.
It took more than a month to slowly steam itself dry.
No more melted snow now. :-[
Yours doesn't actually look that bad. My old line looked very similar yours from day one.
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I guess there is no sure way to tell where it is leaking...where it is melting the earth above the pipe is likely the lowest spot in the pipe. but an educated guess would say the likely hood of where the leak is would be the splice (unless a stone or something has worked it's way through the tile or it was damaged at installation you splice it? if so you know what you did, now think long and hard and come to your own conclusion on whether or not the splice could have failed. also when did you notice this melting..perhaps it was a mild day and if this is a low spot in the yard it may be the first spot to melt off a little?
Before you dig...be sure you have a problem
Willie alluded to it here , I'm going to ride his coattails and expand , you need to find out if your leaking and loosing heat before you dig , a lot of times a ditch dig last year wont snow over for some reason or its a low spot as willie said, so figure out a way to accurately measure the temp coming out of your boiler and at the first device and monitor that over time for a big difference . Monitor if your leaking water same way over time , dont jump to dig it up until you know for sure
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Exactly right last years dig probably isn't completely flourished with good thick grass yet it takes awhile. I personally would get 2 maverick high temp thermometer off of eBay. I paid $12 a piece put one on your supply at the back of the stove and the other in the home where it enters. Put the probe on metal or a fitting of some sort, as it doesn't accurately read off of pex. I believe that will tell you more what's happening. A decent 5 wrap will lose 2-3 degrees per 100ft
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I have a very nice heat gun. I have some time today so I'll take some readings. I woke up this morning and it dawned on me what I used in the splice. It was two long, very nice brass shark bite fittings. Same ones I used in the basement. I know there not leaking. I left them uncovered for a good month to make sure. The hole ended up filling up with dirt durning a rain last winter and then I just pushed dirt on top after it froze again. Im going to find the splice this spring and just water proof the ends of the pex at the splice. Temps coming out of the boiler pex was 157*. In the house before the first pump it was 153* Im not loosing much. It is 15* outside right now too.