Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Hawken Energy, support only => Topic started by: neil on December 25, 2012, 01:25:47 AM
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Warranty ?
Where does one start to see if the warranty is even believable before you buy. Its the only thing left for me to decide, A bit late this winter but its my last year for OIL !
This report I found seems to have a good review of most stoves, after looking at all of the ones listed here – [a dated report] it seems to me that Hawken is rated the best here, and they seem to do the warrant ok. I found a new one Polar Furnace http://www.polarfurnace.com/ (http://www.polarfurnace.com/) too, anyone have experience there yet ?
Furnace Manufacturer Rating http://www.devisemedia.com/clients/AC/images/Heating_Logos/Energy_Industry_Report.pdf (http://www.devisemedia.com/clients/AC/images/Heating_Logos/Energy_Industry_Report.pdf)
Hawken Energy ------------ 4.5
Royall------------------------- 3.0
Heatmor --------------------- 3.0
Woodmaster --------------- 2.5
Wood Doctor --------------- 2.5
Empyre ---------------------- 2.0
Hardy ------------------------ 1.5
Central Boiler--------------- 1.5
Aquatherm ----------------- 1.0
Taylor ----------------------- 1.0
I see after doing a BBB on the list I found 1 out of business , there is no notice of Fraudulent company’s though on this Blog , but this Wood Doctor is still taking people’s money posted in the wooddoctor link , If you call on the phone they will take the $ and their website is a new domain http://www.wooddoctorfurnace.com/ (http://www.wooddoctorfurnace.com/) but are one of the crooks giving all the OWB business a bad name .
Is there other Manufacture on here that are also out of business but still have their hand out I wonder.
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I'm no expert but I'm not sure if I believe those numbers. I really don't know how you can tell if the warranty is really worth a crap. From everything I've read on here, you buy the unit you want and just hope that if anything goes wrong with it that they will honor their warranty. Good luck!
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In my option the warranty is only as good as your dealer, a lot of my choice was based on the local dealer, he is the manufactures rep, if his operation sux then any little issue is a nightmare, my local CB always answered the phone, keep stopping by during my install and i did have a motherboard fail last year, he sent someone over they replaced it has been working great since, and still keeps in touch. And if there is ever a issue my dealer is the one I am going to see and expect him to send someone out go fix it.
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When you read down to the fine print, all warranties will be fairly similar. But yes, only as good as the company and dealer. As I've stated before, your best warranty is your own operation and maintenance of your own furnace. Regarding the report you are referring to, it is a joke. Pacific Western, Global Hydronics, Free Heat Machine and a few other defunct companies have "utilized" this fake report many times over, dropping "their" furnace name in as the #1 rated furnace with all the best features,while dropping the real top companies and features well down on the list. Every year it seems another company has picks it up and their dealers are handing it out at their show booths at the fairs. I would beware of any company trying to pump out fraudulant information in their intial sales pitch. This info is not from "independent" companies but their own media generating machine.
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Your dealer is more important than that paper. A dealer selling 50 stoves a year has the power and leverage to get things done for his customers, unlike a dealer selling 5-6 a year
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Yes I think you are correct, I wonder who builds Hawken ? after reading all this data I seem to think there are only a few factory's. So really there are dealers reselling to small dealers, For sure Woodoctor and hawken were same supplier at 1 time. But now seems they are different. I really wonder if that wooddoctor new Boiler is a good idea, The pressure maybe something to consider on a corrosion issue, but are or who are they buying from as it seems they are out of business officially. Hawken has had no issues the past few years so it seems a safe bet also.
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Wood doctor or hawken, IMO your kinda scraping the barrel with both. There are a few hawkers near me, folks aren't thrilled.. Also had several threads on here last year that were "removed" all on warranty issues.
Wood doctors new idea isn't new, it's just a different way to sling more crap. Pressurizing can help with corrosion but is dangerous and requires special permits and licensing. A properly treated open system is fine, it's all about the water treatment.
Sadly so much of the info on these forums and stuff you'll find isnt good, often times companies put out info on the Internet that looks independent but is far from it.
There are reputable companies out there, wood master, heatmaster,central boiler, empyre, portage and main, but then there are others I wouldn't touch.
Being in the industry is what makes me chuckle when I see such reports as what you have found here, it's just hard telling where this info came from, and knowing how these companies operate almost assures me most of it is likely false. If you'd like to call and talk about furnaces in general feel free to give me a call, there is always Internet hype and falsehoods as with any product, But in this industry it's out of control.
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I still feel from what I have read and seen from other stoves that a round firebox is the best way to go.
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I still feel from what I have read and seen from other stoves that a round firebox is the best way to go.
Nothing wrong with round, but if it's built right many shapes will work. Kinda hard to argue against the central boiler and empyre design fireboxes. They make em work, but that's not to say that there are still less chances for something to go wrong with a round firebox. We'll probably see less and less round fireboxes as owb evolve though
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Yes I think you are correct, I wonder who builds Hawken ? after reading all this data I seem to think there are only a few factory's. So really there are dealers reselling to small dealers, For sure Woodoctor and hawken were same supplier at 1 time. But now seems they are different. I really wonder if that wooddoctor new Boiler is a good idea, The pressure maybe something to consider on a corrosion issue, but are or who are they buying from as it seems they are out of business officially. Hawken has had no issues the past few years so it seems a safe bet also.
Hey Neil, Hawken and WoodDoctor are not, nor were they EVER the same. I know some have thought this and this led me to investigate further - definitely not true. Wood Doctor was owned and run by a guy in Canada named Arthur Turple. Apparently he was not such a good businessman. Wood Doctor failed and left everyone without warranty coverage. Turple published a story online attempting to explain his sad story. Hawken is a totally different company in Michigan. The Hawken guys distributed a Canadian furnace for a few years ('04-'07) built by Global Hydronics - not Wood Doctor. Global did not meet Hawken quality standards so they dropped them and now build their own. Hawken spent 100s of thousands forcing Global to take care of their warranty claims and the Hawken guys even purchased new furnaces for Global customers with their own money. Now Hawken builds their own furnaces and I know a few people who have them and love them - including myself. I even had a problem that was my own fault and the Hawken guys took care of it with no questions asked. I can't speak to the other companies' warranties, but the Hawken guys take good care of their customers.
Hey Scott, this is me ribbing you - we don't expect you to say nice things about other brands that you don't sell. Aren't you like some territory manager for Nature's Comfort?
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The hawken and burnrite were my top 2 to decide from. They are very similar but the total weight of the burnrite sold me.
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Yes I think you are correct, I wonder who builds Hawken ? after reading all this data I seem to think there are only a few factory's. So really there are dealers reselling to small dealers, For sure Woodoctor and hawken were same supplier at 1 time. But now seems they are different. I really wonder if that wooddoctor new Boiler is a good idea, The pressure maybe something to consider on a corrosion issue, but are or who are they buying from as it seems they are out of business officially. Hawken has had no issues the past few years so it seems a safe bet also.
Hey Neil, Hawken and WoodDoctor are not, nor were they EVER the same. I know some have thought this and this led me to investigate further - definitely not true. Wood Doctor was owned and run by a guy in Canada named Arthur Turple. Apparently he was not such a good businessman. Wood Doctor failed and left everyone without warranty coverage. Turple published a story online attempting to explain his sad story. Hawken is a totally different company in Michigan. The Hawken guys distributed a Canadian furnace for a few years ('04-'07) built by Global Hydronics - not Wood Doctor. Global did not meet Hawken quality standards so they dropped them and now build their own. Hawken spent 100s of thousands forcing Global to take care of their warranty claims and the Hawken guys even purchased new furnaces for Global customers with their own money. Now Hawken builds their own furnaces and I know a few people who have them and love them - including myself. I even had a problem that was my own fault and the Hawken guys took care of it with no questions asked. I can't speak to the other companies' warranties, but the Hawken guys take good care of their customers.
Hey Scott, this is me ribbing you - we don't expect you to say nice things about other brands that you don't sell. Aren't you like some territory manager for Nature's Comfort?
Yea, and if you were on here much you'd know I don't sugar coat nothing, I work on this stuff year round and service all brands. I have been critical of every brand I sell and offer advise and help anyone I can regardless of brand.
As far as NC, I've caused more fusses on here over them than anyone. Stick around and don't jump to so many conclusions
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We purchased a HE2100 in 2012 and have had nothing but problems with it. The woodstove will not do what it is rated to do. They claim on there web site that it will heat 10,000 sq. ft. It will barely do less then 5000. We have had some other warranty issues and the company after speaking to our dealer refuses to honor there warranty.
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WTF? I am cofused because fire heats water and the pump circulates the hot water. Either your pump isn't big enough or your operating temp isn't set high enough. I didn't buy a hawken just because I wanted a even simpler machine. I just get really confused when people say they have nothing but problems with their stoves. Sorry
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We have everything set according to the manufacturers specifications. This is not our first outdoor wood furnace. We upgraded to this one last spring and we needed to heat another new well insulated building. We chose this brand because it appeared to be similar to our previous stove and we wanted to support our local community.
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Maybe your dealer didn't set you up with the right size exchangers etc. 368 gallons of water is lots of heat so something wasn't sized right.
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its not about water capacity at all. lets remember that, as today's most efficient stoves hold the fewest gallons of water. mine is currently holding 60 gallons, and some only hold 30.
its about heat transfer, not heat storage. if your furnace isnt able to transfer enough btu into the water, as fast as your pulling it off, its gonna stay behind regardless of how many gallons you have.
but your problems definetly sound like something id love to hear more about, either the stove is just flat out over rated, or maybe there is design issues within the install. thats very possible
Even though all manufacturers show max btu ratings and say they can heat x number of square feet, its all flat out bull.. first of all, max ratings doesnt matter, thats with the draft completely wide open in the lab with perfect wood, and maxing sure the firebox is completely stuffed.... what i would like to see more companies do is give you a rating of how many btu can this stove provide over a give time period, lets say 8 12 14 hours or something like that. Then as a dealer when you show up for the job, you can do a heat loss caluclation on the home based on size, number and quality of widows, several different factors to determine the size furnace that would work best for them.
I've saw 6000 square foot homes that heat far easier than a 1500 foot farmhouse.
but lets definitely hear more about this situation........ feel free to ask questions here or even call.. this is a chance to learn something for sure
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We purchased a HE2100 in 2012 and have had nothing but problems with it. The woodstove will not do what it is rated to do. They claim on there web site that it will heat 10,000 sq. ft. It will barely do less then 5000. We have had some other warranty issues and the company after speaking to our dealer refuses to honor there warranty.
to heat a squar foot of space with 8 foot cielings can take anywhere (on average) from 20 to 50 btu per square foot....if yoru home required even 40 per square foot on a severley cold night that would be 5000 x 40=200,000 btu per hour so if you wanted to go from 10 at night till 7 am that would be 9 hours...times the 200,000 = 1,800,000 btu
now it is said that a pound of wood can give up 8600 btu's but after you take teh btu's to dry out the wood to actually burn that number is said to be about 6000 now lets say you have a barrel in a barrel OWB and (i don't knwo for sure but ibknow it is a low number and i wont argue i will jsut use this for average) it is only 50% efficient..that brings the btu you are delivering to the home to only 3000 per pound so divide that 1,8000,000 by 3000 comes to 600
so, IF your home required 40 btu per square foot of space you would need to have 600 pound of wood in your stove to last 9 hours
btu usage depends on the heat loss from your home and 40 or 50 btu per hour can change drastically depending on your homes heat loss and location the above calculation may not be your homes situation but you can figure it out for yourself if you know your homes heat loss and the average btu for your area and your OWB efficiency rating
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A home should never really need that much heat though, the house we used in class for heat loss calculations measured at 5200 square feet, we had to use use window size and calculations for open space as well, a house that measured 5200 sq ft only required 59,000 btu per hour on the average coldest winter day in Ontario. We then determined what size stove could achieve that many btu per hour over 12 hours to size the stove correctly.
Most btu ratings done without a heat loss calculation are grossly over stated from what I have seen since I started experimenting with heat loss calculations...
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A home should never really need that much heat though, the house we used in class for heat loss calculations measured at 5200 square feet, we had to use use window size and calculations for open space as well, a house that measured 5200 sq ft only required 59,000 btu per hour on the average coldest winter day in Ontario. We then determined what size stove could achieve that many btu per hour over 12 hours to size the stove correctly.
Most btu ratings done without a heat loss calculation are grossly over stated from what I have seen since I started experimenting with heat loss calculations...
there is what we needed some factual btu ratings... so we use 60,000 for easier figures...x 9 hours = 540,000 divided by 3000= 180 pounds of wood ,now that would be only one floor if there is a basement or upstairs you would need to figure that as well?
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A home should never really need that much heat though, the house we used in class for heat loss calculations measured at 5200 square feet, we had to use use window size and calculations for open space as well, a house that measured 5200 sq ft only required 59,000 btu per hour on the average coldest winter day in Ontario. We then determined what size stove could achieve that many btu per hour over 12 hours to size the stove correctly.
Most btu ratings done without a heat loss calculation are grossly over stated from what I have seen since I started experimenting with heat loss calculations...
The home we did was rather complex, the floor didn't measure 5200 sq ft, but when you measured it out for open vaulted ceilings, it actually came to 5200, for example if there was rooms with 16' ceilings, the square footage for that space instantly doubled....
there is what we needed some factual btu ratings... so we use 60,000 for easier figures...x 9 hours = 540,000 divided by 3000= 180 pounds of wood ,now that would be only one floor if there is a basement or upstairs you would need to figure that as well?
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When I get into my folder I'll post the values and numbers we use to do the calculations, I can't remember it without looking back
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i just located on the net (for that is worth) a nice worksheet for figuring btu's required for outside to inside temps and in well or poorly insulated homes
one floor well insualted home of 1600 square feet with 8 foot cielings and outside temp 0F and inside temp of 68F = (by this program) just under 40,000 btu per hour
for 0 and 70 degrees = about 41,000
be interesting to see how this chart works along side what you have scott (so i know if i should keep it handy or not)
i tried one with average outside day time temps of 30F and night times of 20F (averaged at 25) and inside of 70F...came to 28,000
anywheres close to what your programs tell you scott?
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I'll have to find the folder and just give you the figures.... The guy who designed this used to own the largest heating/cooling business in Ontario. He did every install with constant low fan speed settings and he said nearly every system he ever saw whether it was stove or conventional was oversized. He said that they were all grossly oversized, and was there figures for calculations
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Hey Scott or Willy can you do a rough heat loss calc for my house? It is a mix of older updated farm house and new construction. The main floor is 1800 sq/ft, the second floor is 1200 sq/ft, It has a full basement but is only is kept around 60. The kicker is I have 30 3x5 windows plus a few smaller ones. 3 doors including 1 large slider. Windows are all pellas and doors are all thermatrue. I live in Michigan so I think the design temp is 70*@ 0. Oh I forgot 9 foot ceilings.
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Ok Willie here we go
Design temp, coldest expected winter low temp
Lets say 0 degrees
Now we need to use a figure called heating degree days
For my area about 5500
It asks me to figure in electric rate and then convert khw to btu
So .135 cents per kwh
Electric furnace 97% efficient
Ceiling square footage 2000 sq ft
R Value 30
Wall square footage 1600
R value 13
Windows/door square foot. 300
R value 1.8
2000 sq ft of floor
R 20
Air changes per hour. 0.33 minimal health code
0.5 for "tight" house, we'll use that
Internal heat gains "people" 2
Ppl put off around 2000 btu per hour
Soo... After this is calculated here is what I see
Ceiling is losing 4667 btu/hr
Walls losing 8615 btu/hr
Windows/doors losing 11667 btu/hr
Floor loss is 7000 btu/hr
Air exchange loss 11340
Total btu loss per hour on a 0 degree hour in my neck of the woods on this house would be 43,289
So if you sized for that, you'd look for a stove that could produce that many btu per hour and you would know you were covered on a 0 degree day
Oh yea, and fuel cost for that in my area would be 3,330 in electric
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the best way is if you heated with someting else and could come up with a cost of what it was to heat your home last year...what type of fuel and convert that to btu..then you could determine yoru wood consumption by that..but i will try this new calsulatop i found on the web and see what it says and maybe scott can find his calcualtion sheet and try it also.
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Hey Scott or Willy can you do a rough heat loss calc for my house? It is a mix of older updated farm house and new construction. The main floor is 1800 sq/ft, the second floor is 1200 sq/ft, It has a full basement but is only is kept around 60. The kicker is I have 30 3x5 windows plus a few smaller ones. 3 doors including 1 large slider. Windows are all pellas and doors are all thermatrue. I live in Michigan so I think the design temp is 70*@ 0. Oh I forgot 9 foot ceilings.
Yea I can, you'd have to email me the details off all the parameters I laid out in the above post
Location, wall space, floor space, ceiling space etc
Just post it below and I'll figure it up
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the best way is if you heated with someting else and could come up with a cost of what it was to heat your home last year...what type of fuel and convert that to btu..then you could determine yoru wood consumption by that..but i will try this new calsulatop i found on the web and see what it says and maybe scott can find his calcualtion sheet and try it also.
I have never heated with anything other than wood. Before I added on I used a add on in the basement. I bought my boiler when I updated the house.
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Hey Scott or Willy can you do a rough heat loss calc for my house? It is a mix of older updated farm house and new construction. The main floor is 1800 sq/ft, the second floor is 1200 sq/ft, It has a full basement but is only is kept around 60. The kicker is I have 30 3x5 windows plus a few smaller ones. 3 doors including 1 large slider. Windows are all pellas and doors are all thermatrue. I live in Michigan so I think the design temp is 70*@ 0. Oh I forgot 9 foot ceilings.
I'm gonna go ahead and take a stab at it
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the best way is if you heated with someting else and could come up with a cost of what it was to heat your home last year...what type of fuel and convert that to btu..then you could determine your wood consumption by that..but i will try this new calculator i found on the web and see what it says and maybe scott can find his calcualtion sheet and try it also.
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scott to match your numbers i had to use +10 for the average low outside temp and 70 for the house
when i plugged in 0 outside and 70 inside i got 51,000
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Well I went wild and threw in what figures I didn't know for sure and here is what I came up with,
Not accurate but let's see....
Ceiling loss is 7650 btu/hr
Wall loss is 29750/hr
Window loss 17000/hr
Floor loss 31875
Infiltration is 33048
Ceiling loss is likely off as I probably used to high of an r value
But I used a 7500 degree day with a low of -15
According to these numbers which are estimates
You would require 119,323 btu/hr to heat your home on a -15 degree day
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scott to match your numbers i had to use +10 for the average low outside temp and 70 for the house
when i plugged in 0 outside and 70 inside i got 51,000
For these u use the lowest expected low, like your lowest temp u expect to see each winter
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This won't be perfect but should be close for figures.
0 for design
ceiling 1800
half of it should be r60 the other half is maybe r20. Old style story and half with only 4" ceiling joists.
walls first 1850
new half is spray foam other half is fiberglass batts r13
second 1000
again half spray foam and half fiberglass
Floor ?
basement walls
windows and doors figure 550 sq ft
Figure something less than tight for air changes
2 adults, 3 kids for people
I live in Michigan
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the chart i have found works out for woodmans house to main floor 45,000 upstairs 30,000 and basement 10,000 for a total of 85,000 but this chart does not allow for heat leaking from floor to floor (dont know if that makes a difference or not) plus i used +10 for a low temp as that is what it took to match scotts numbers...if i used 0 for a low i get 101,000 and that is using 70 as the house temp
no tsure if this chart can be used half way accurate or not?
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Ok will do
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Well I went wild and threw in what figures I didn't know for sure and here is what I came up with,
Not accurate but let's see....
Ceiling loss is 7650 btu/hr
Wall loss is 29750/hr
Window loss 17000/hr
Floor loss 31875
Infiltration is 33048
Ceiling loss is likely off as I probably used to high of an r value
But I used a 7500 degree day with a low of -15
According to these numbers which are estimates
You would require 119,323 btu/hr to heat your home on a -15 degree day
OK thanks Scott! The other night we had -12 but spent most of the night around -5. I loaded my boiler what I would call full at 5pm, at 8am the next day all I had were coals, water temp was down around 130 so I say that was the max my boiler could do for 15 hours. I also was heating my garage but only around 55 so I don't know what that added, and a couple of showers. So is it safe to say I was using 90k-100k/btu per hour? We keep the house at 71 during the night.
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I just re did it all and used the figures you gave me.... Day and night difference
I used averages to blend foam and regular
Ceiling loss 3600
Wall loss 9606
Windows 15400
Floor loss 5250
Infiltration 13608
Total heat loss using the 0 design temp with 7000 degree days
It says you'd need around 48,000 btu/hr to maintain on a 0 degree day
Sound right?
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Yea I donno, when I added in spray foam r values things went crazy on the chart
Plus I used 0 instead of -15 like before and changed the degree days down to 7000 from 7500
With that changing, I think it's likely you were in that 80-100 range on a -15 day, I'll figure it again using 7500 and -15 lol
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That changed it to near 70k, but I think I over estimated some insulation values, but maybe not...
On my own home I've used these figures, it was scary how accurate it was, I got down to then point of weighing wood at one point lol
My home was pretty cut and dry tho
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Yea I donno, when I added in spray foam r values things went crazy on the chart
Plus I used 0 instead of -15 like before and changed the degree days down to 7000 from 7500
With that changing, I think it's likely you were in that 80-100 range on a -15 day, I'll figure it again using 7500 and -15 lol
Ya you are running into the same trouble I do when I have tried to figure a heat loss. It is a nightmare to try to figure this house out with all the diferences in construction materials. It doesn't really matter as I have always been able to stay warm even in temps colder than we just had last week. I just thought that would put some real world numbers for the capibility of my stove. I think they rate it at 4k sq ft. so for me its pretty close.
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I am really running off topic here but, is this why I don't seem to have the creosalt issues I hear others talk about? Since my stove is kinda maxed out does that help in effciency at all?
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It keeps you efficient at going to the wood pile.hahaha :bash:
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It keeps you efficient at going to the wood pile.hahaha :bash:
Ya tell me about it. I would like to find a way to go there a little less. My stove deff has a healthy appatite. Scotts numbers tell me what I have been thinking, my house uses a lot of btu's.
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That changed it to near 70k, but I think I over estimated some insulation values, but maybe not...
On my own home I've used these figures, it was scary how accurate it was, I got down to then point of weighing wood at one point lol
My home was pretty cut and dry tho
Thanks for taking the time to run those numbers Scott. Your numbers back up what i have been thinking that my house uses a lot of btu's.
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I wish I could do it more accurately, but for what I had to go on, it is what it is lol
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Your dealer is more important than that paper. A dealer selling 50 stoves a year has the power and leverage to get things done for his customers, unlike a dealer selling 5-6 a year
I agree totaly....I could have saved a few bucks and bought from the manufacture but dealers on here like scott and some others have been really helpfull and it gives me another person to call besides the company if I have a problem. chuck