Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Central Boiler => Topic started by: smithbr on February 28, 2017, 11:29:00 PM
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Hi
:bash: reaction chamber temps have been dropping for the last couple of weeks. Figured it out today. We're limping through tonight, fortunately it's +2 C out there now.
5 of 7 tubes are blocked. DOH. Now, how to get them cleaned out. Ideas, anyone? I was thinking a chunk of 1/4" copper tubing might make a flexible enough but stiff enough poker to allow me to chip away at the accumulated creosote. Once I can get it somewhat clear, it'll get easier. Right now, they're solid. To be fair, I realized I haven't touched them since fall startup, despite weekly cleanouts. Once I get them cleared, that won't happen again!
Just sign me,
Blockhead.
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As a separate note what caused the issue? Some other guys have dealt with this so other should have some good suggestions. How accessible is the heat exchangers? Do you have a straight shot through the hxs or do you have to deal with corners? I think some people have used diesel to free up creosote which might help you to get the tubes that are totally plugged freed up.
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You might try something that I have used, a piece of steel snake for pulling wire in your cordless drill, use extreme caution, low speed, when it gets whipping around it can hurt but in the hole it does a great job of breaking up hard creosote and its flexible as well, a piece of metal conduit or copper can be slid over the snake to use as a hand held guide for longer ones.
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As a separate note what caused the issue? Some other guys have dealt with this so other should have some good suggestions. How accessible is the heat exchangers? Do you have a straight shot through the hxs or do you have to deal with corners? I think some people have used diesel to free up creosote which might help you to get the tubes that are totally plugged freed up.
L
Wonder what suggestions Central Boiler would have if you called them? Surely they have run into this before.
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You might try something that I have used, a piece of steel snake for pulling wire in your cordless drill, use extreme caution, low speed, when it gets whipping around it can hurt but in the hole it does a great job of breaking up hard creosote and its flexible as well, a piece of metal conduit or copper can be slid over the snake to use as a hand held guide for longer ones.
Good idea!
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As a separate note what caused the issue? Some other guys have dealt with this so other should have some good suggestions. How accessible is the heat exchangers? Do you have a straight shot through the hxs or do you have to deal with corners? I think some people have used diesel to free up creosote which might help you to get the tubes that are totally plugged freed up.
L
Wonder what suggestions Central Boiler would have if you called them? Surely they have run into this before.
Haha, of course they haven’t, that would imply a flaw in the design. We always get stuff on the farm that when it goes fubar the dealer or OEM claims it's a first.
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I'm sorta serious though. It may not be a flaw but sometimes even a good design can screw up under certain conditions. I've never looked in detail at an e-classic.
But they should offer some help regardless.
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As a separate note what caused the issue? Some other guys have dealt with this so other should have some good suggestions. How accessible is the heat exchangers? Do you have a straight shot through the hxs or do you have to deal with corners? I think some people have used diesel to free up creosote which might help you to get the tubes that are totally plugged freed up.
Obvious cause, careless owner maintenance. Secondary cause, switch to low-BTU pine and spruce, because of more than a month of well above seasonal temperatures. Result, a lot of running with demand cycles every 3-4 hours, interspersed with lots of 50-second boost cycles that put low-temperature smoke up the chimney. Upshot, self-inflicted problem. I'm not going to go to a flammable fuel to clean the chimney at this time if I can avoid it. On the E1450, the tubes are vertical, with reasonable access above and below - but not a straight shot or I'd use a ramrod. I've checked other common problems on the list, our supply air paths are all good, so it's just the smoke path from the reaction chamber that's giving me grief. From what I've seen so far this afternoon, they're pretty badly plugged, so I may put a flexi-shaft drill into play to try and get a power brush of some form into the tube. I'm hoping that the blockage is a short one - after there's no gas flow in the tube, why should it continue to plug up?
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Well, problem solved. All 7 tubes cleaned in an hour and a half. Developed a special tool to allow me to get a rigid 1/2" x 1/8" bar into the tubes, and cleaned from the bottom up to loosen and remove the crap. Had I started from the top down, I'd likely have just packed the blockage harder.
Note to self: Check the tubes weekly now, until I'm satisfied we're keeping them clear.
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Thanks for reporting back. Good to know how these issues get resolved.
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There is a tool that comes with the unit to clean tubes. Works well and I can get by wi the once maybe twice a season cleaning them.
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Well, problem solved. All 7 tubes cleaned in an hour and a half. Developed a special tool to allow me to get a rigid 1/2" x 1/8" bar into the tubes, and cleaned from the bottom up to loosen and remove the crap. Had I started from the top down, I'd likely have just packed the blockage harder.
Note to self: Check the tubes weekly now, until I'm satisfied we're keeping them clear.
I have the 1400 so the design is quite different. Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to reach the tubes? Do you have to turn yourself into a pretzel to reach them or is it straightforward? Roger
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I'm sorta serious though. It may not be a flaw but sometimes even a good design can screw up under certain conditions. I've never looked in detail at an e-classic.
But they should offer some help regardless.
My father in law "had" a cb as does 2 of my employees. Let's just say their customer service is non existent 99% of the time.
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What I mean is- Even if you have a less than perfect design if you help your customers they usually are pretty loyal.
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I couldn't agree more Mr. Yoder. I'd own a CB if this was the case.
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I have an e1450 and if I don't clean out the tubes once every two weeks they will get clogged up where the tool won't fit down the tubes. I use a small piece of wire like a coat hanger and run it up for the bottom and down from the top to break it up. I then pull the scraper tool with chains on both ends down through the tubes. One thing a learned is that if you remove the weak chain that came with it and put a heavier duty chain on the tool it will pull down easier. Glad you were able to clean out the tubes and it's important to keep them clean. I use a shop vac during clean out to remove all ash and debris off the top of those tubes as well.
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Hey, PapaTango
Good to hear, but I suspect this is one of those issues that's very fuelwood and dryness-specific. As for their tool, I gave up in disgust. It jams randomly, and yeah, the chain is a piece of junk. My new tool is far better for the job as far as I'm concerned. I'll probably play with their tool later this spring, at the end-of-season cleanout, to make sure the paths are really clean. On a weekly basis, it's easier to just use my "articulating poker". Which I'll post a pic of if anyone's curious. It's just a couple of pieces of the removable metal frame you find inside filing cabinets, the sort used to support "hangfiles". The L-leg and one straight section, if reassembled with a bolt(or rivet) to make a really long L, is perfect for jamming up and down in the tubes. The bottom leg of the L is just right for chipping away at creosote up the edges, and with a little practice you can really work away at it.
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5 out of my 7 heat exchange ducts clogged. I used a rod for a chimney brush to clear a path for the chain that came with the boiler. Dropped the chain through and unplugged each easily. I'm glad I read this post to realize that all 7 are supposed to be clear. I thought at first they connected into a single duct on each side and so that it was normal to not be able to get the chain through all 7.
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Figured I'd post an update. Finally got the chain tool through all 7 passages. Didn't improve performance, but now I know they're clear. Took a lot of chipping to get numbers 5 and 6 clear, and they seem to be clogging back up more quickly than the rest. Day after I started up for the fall, I was standing near the furnace piling wood, and I heard a "Whumpfh" at the end of a 50 second boost. Sure enough, the electrical cabinet has a new load of embers in it, so I applied another load of WD40 to the solenoids; pretty sure that's what's happening, one or both valves is hanging up and as a result we get an explosive gas mix in the stove, which relieves itself. Hope it's not doing any other harm.
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Further update, two cleanouts since my post on the 7th, and each time, putting the chain tool through was a breeze except for the sixth tube, which clears quickly but not without some back-and-forth with the tool. My complaint last year about the tool was unwarranted, it does a decent job as long as you don't forget it exists.
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I have an e1450 and the H-Tool that was provided with it does a great job. A couple years ago the exchange became very clogged and I had to clean it out with a bent piece of 1/4" metal dowel and a bent piece of flatstock. I ended up getting the H-Tool stuck and the lower wire ring broke when I tried to pull it down. Fortunately I had the top chain in-tact to extract the tool. I ultimately replaced the wire rings with heavy duty chain links. I'd recommend other e1450 owners do the same.
If the boiler is running efficiently, my exchange doesn't get much build-up (even when burning soft woods). When the primary air intake gets some build-up and/or the air tubes, thicker emissions eventually accumulate everywhere. Once its starts running inefficiently, the process compounds itself and everything becomes a pain to clean. Key is to stay on top of the little things before they turn into bigger problems.
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I echo this for any gassers. As long as intake and exhaust are clean and clear everything runs great. Once buildup starts anywhere, things get bad in a hurry. There is very little room for tolerance with sticky mechanisms or plugged airways.
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Well I just finished with clogged heat exchanger tubes. I was doing an ash clean out after 6 weeks plus, it was full to the top with ashes. So while I was at it I cleaned the heat exchanger tubes and the primary air tube. The exchanger tubes were clogged enough that the chain and clean out tool laughed at me. I finally ran a wire snake down from the top and pulled the clean out tool up to clean them. Long and the short is that I am burning some bad wood this year. It's mainly white pine and not aged as well as it could be. I never had this before now. Next year I am getting wood sooner and plan to get mainly hardwood like the 2 years past. I hate all the smoke from the idle time . Smithbr I know your pain :bash:. Rodger2651 the heat exchange tubes are in back on the side from the chimney pipe, the problem is that there is no straight shot at them but they are easy to get at. Now for the ironic part of this is I had embers still burning well after the fire died out over 12 hours before I cleaned it, now I have a smoke show going on starting it up.
On the only plus side I had the coal stove rocking in the basement, something had to work.
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Duramax, now that you've got the clearance for the chain tool again, I think you'll find that using it at least every two weeks is best. Every time I go beyond that, I have to spend extra time pulling and yanking. I'm nearly 6' tall, and I can get a hand on the chain at the top, other hand at the bottom, and work the rig back and forth; my wife, who's 5'6", can't reach both simultaneously without pressing her face against the back of the furnace, so I guess she'll need help if I'm ever not available to clean the furnace. The chain tool seems like the best way to clean it out, but I guess all the guys in the design group at Central Boiler are six footers like me - not sure how height-challenged folk could do it alone.
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Duramax, now that you've got the clearance for the chain tool again, I think you'll find that using it at least every two weeks is best. Every time I go beyond that, I have to spend extra time pulling and yanking. I'm nearly 6' tall, and I can get a hand on the chain at the top, other hand at the bottom, and work the rig back and forth; my wife, who's 5'6", can't reach both simultaneously without pressing her face against the back of the furnace, so I guess she'll need help if I'm ever not available to clean the furnace. The chain tool seems like the best way to clean it out, but I guess all the guys in the design group at Central Boiler are six footers like me - not sure how height-challenged folk could do it alone.
I've never seen the chain or the mechanism you're talking about, but is there a way to add links to the chain to make it easier for your wife to reach both ends of it at the same time?
We're expecting some pretty dang cold temps for the next week or so. Starting tonight the night time temps are supposed to be double digit below zero F, so I spent a little time (about 45 minutes) performing a thorough cleaning on my 1400 this morning. The last time I did a complete cleaning was a little over a month ago. To my surprise most of the primary air holes in the firebox were clean with a minor build up in a couple of them. This is my 7th year heating my house and DHW with it and I think I have finally figured out how to run the thing. They say Frenchmen are stubborn and thick headed, well, I'm a great example of that. Roger
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Roger
It wouldn't matter. The way I use the tool is pulling up, pulling down, working my way down the first tube (it's really a channel), then repeat for the other six To do this efficiently, you have to retain your grip on both ends of the chain, and pull alternately up and down. Since both arms are reaching in, one in the top plenum above the hx, and one in the reaction chamber below, in order to pull vertically, more chain doesn't help. Guess I'd have to show you. If you're short, or just short in the arms, you're left with pulling the tool down until it sticks, standing up, pulling it up until it's free, leaning down and pulling it down until it sticks, etc. etc. etc. Very slow, and hard on the back.
It's a design limitation, and as far as I'm concerned unsolvable for me. The best solution is to avoid enough buildup to jam the tool, which means weekly cleanouts. Go to two weeks with average wood, and you're likely going to be cursing a blue streak.
The crappy links they use for the chain connection to the actual H-bar cleanout part need replacing, also, as it's too easy to pull them apart, leaving you with the tool stuck in the channel. For what we pay for these units, THAT's unforgivable.
Yep, we hit -32C (about -26F) last night. A half-full firebox lasted 9 hours, but it's not the best wood, only 20% oak/ash, 80% poplar and birch; none of it is as dry as I'd like.
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smithbr - That kinda sucks knowing you can't do much about it other than a cleaning every couple of weeks. You say it's hard on the back; that's the last thing I need due to degenerative disk disease (DDD) in my lower back and neck. If I push it too hard, I'll be in pain for a good week following the hard work. I'm 56 and I hope I can retire from work at 62. I'm hopeful that I will be able to enjoy my retirement (long motorcycle rides, etc...) for a few years before DDD really kicks my backside. Roger
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To be clear, I don't find cleaning hard on the back, though I do think I need a stool to sit on while doing this. But if I had to do the pulls separately, I don't think I'd keep the furnace; my back is good, but my patience for a dumb design is short. I don't have experience with other furnaces, so maybe they're all challenged in some way, and frankly, other than this cleanout issue I'm pretty happy with the E1450, but...
My wife pointed out another option. She can kneel and pull down, I can stand and pull up. We'd be like one of those old time sawyer competitions, with the 6' two-handle bucksaw running vertically, sawing planks off the side of a log. Sheesh!
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Cleaned out my 1450 yesterday , weather was supposed to get in the 50's but it never broke above 31* but even that was still warm. The heat exchanger tubes were easy this time, I just used the factory tool and chain. I just pull it up and let it fall to clear out the tubes. Better wood and more demand must have helped keep it cleaner. I did get sick of using an ash vac, takes lots of time so I got out the shop vac and put water in the bottom for any hot coals. I vacuum it from the top and suck out the reaction chamber.
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Duramax - You pull it up the tube? How does that work? I can't get the chain to climb up the inside of the tube so I can grab it at the top - :D gravity always wins. Unless you disconnect the chain, hang it down the inside, connect the tool at the bottom, and pull up?
I replaced those stupid keychain rings they used to attach the chain to the tool with some 3/16" chain links; now I can pull as hard as I want, they're not going to deform, come apart, and leave the tool in the furnace. Also, now I can pull it down without doing the up-down jiggity jig. It works, though I worry that if I ever get it jammed yanking it that hard, I'll have a devil of a time getting it out, up or down. Next winter, better wood, I swear. :bash:
B
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Duramax - You pull it up the tube? How does that work? I can't get the chain to climb up the inside of the tube so I can grab it at the top - :D gravity always wins. Unless you disconnect the chain, hang it down the inside, connect the tool at the bottom, and pull up?
I replaced those stupid keychain rings they used to attach the chain to the tool with some 3/16" chain links; now I can pull as hard as I want, they're not going to deform, come apart, and leave the tool in the furnace. Also, now I can pull it down without doing the up-down jiggity jig. It works, though I worry that if I ever get it jammed yanking it that hard, I'll have a devil of a time getting it out, up or down. Next winter, better wood, I swear. :bash:
B
I actually started from the top this time and pulled down and it worked. I had to work the tool at the top and let it settle in and go down. Last time I had to send a electrical fish tape down from the top and opened the metal tape so it could pull up. As you are saying it's the crap wood. White pine seasoned a few months and some oak/ maple also aged a few months.