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[Scott7m]

Who said it was a miracle??

Also, 5 gallons per minute is 5 gallons per minute, whether it's through a garden hose or someone takin a leak

Do ya realize you could build the best pipe in the world and if you didn't want to pay for all those certifications and rest it would still be the best pipe in the world??? 

In regards to martys pipe, I've posted pics of it on here, look around you'll find them,  it literally split and if I remember right they gave him some kinda tape to put over the split,  it became water logged

I also just spoke with a guy yesterday from Minnesota who has 6 year old thermopex that has became water logged.  When it comes to foam filled pipes, in my opinion thermopex is a joke when better products are only slightly more in cost

[Scott7m]

You see the first guy to reply sprinter???

He bought thermopex, it split and failed and became water logged.

He's now wishing he'd went with something else and you see what he's going with, and how he's doing it is top notch!  Probably the best way of doing it

You often claim these standards and tests but a lot of that stuff is purely nothing more than a company paying for a certification and nothing more. 

The heat loss on z supply 5 wrap is .48 per 100ft at 5 GPM

If you think creating a barrier between soaked wet soil or frozen soil in the form of an air space isn't a good idea, then I simply ask you do some research outside that of marketing labels or paid for certifications

Oh boy I'd love to see some split thermopex, can't imagine what the bedding looked like if the thermopex casing failed. And no way the pex split. A highly qualified installer can make anything fail.

If you think even for a second that multimillion dollar companies throw out bogus ASTM and test data specs for sales, someone has pulled the wool on you.  Unless Z supply has changed something on their test data it claims a half a degree loss with a 65kbtu load thru 1" pex. Also their testing data is no where to be found or accredited , just a few details in quotes. They also don't mention whether the test data is with PAP or the cheap pex witha .875" ID .  BIG difference in flow velocity. No where do they state a specific pipe, GPM flow and temp loss in the same sentence. Let alone any test conditions.

I'll put up any of the brands I mentioned in a side by side test. I think more research also needs to be done on where and how a reflective radiant barrier will actually work. If there was even a small benefit of using it underground why aren't the big manufacturers using it?   We all KNOW what standing or sitting on a single 1" layer of foam board feels like on the ice, or on my toilet seat in the outhouse in Alaska. Last I checked anything foil isn't being used, and I wonder what happens when that pipe makes a bend and the pex presses the foil against the side of the drain tile. I wonder if it makes a hotspot?

I'm not trying to say Zpipe is junk, just that it's not some miracle pipe that works as good or better than the good pipe. We are all trying to make our customers systems as efficient as possible, so why take the risk, cuz it's not a cheap one if something does go wrong. And who gets left hanging.

While we're on topic

Why would a "highly qualified installer" want to make his pipe fail??

Also, no one said they were throwing out bogus numbers,  just saying like my point earlier, just because someone doesn't want to spend the money to acquire some label or certification doesn't mean it is automatically ruled out or that it's automatically inferior

[Sprinter]

http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf

Notice the temp changes with different velocity? 5gpm thru .875" is almost double the velocity as 5gpm thru 1"PAP. Faster velocity hides temp loss.

Let's say it this way, when fluid travels at the same velocity/speed and data is collected, the results look a lot different. But as you can see the logstor numbers are already there and can't get any clearer. Can't skew that data, nope no way to twist it.

Well if you don't wanna pay for ASTM labels, that doesn't stop you from posting the exact same test data criteria. You know so everyone can compare apples identically. But let me guess somebody figured out a better way to report test data than the hydronic industry norm. For btu/temp loss thru piping.

As far as High Q installer, I'm gonna guess that the thermopex didn't fail, but installation methods did. There's only so many ways to make that casing split, and other than a knife, I'd have to guess there was a leak from the fittings that compromised the the pipe and froze. I've seen that several times.

[mtoll]

Makes me glad I bought Logstor but still confused if you should run it in a 6inch tile.

[victor6deep]

Either way I am getting 16hr burns on negative degree nights so the zpipe is good enough for me. If I do start using more wood or change pipe out to logstor in the future it would be sweet if I could pull it through the 5 inch tile. I don't really see how a thin amount of foam can make that big of a difference just my opinion. I think it has to do with the durability of the outer covering. I could see condensation forming on silver wrap or foam if the situation arises. Is the air space the creator of condensation? It very well could be. If my pipe is losing that much heat wouldn't I have some melted soil at grade level that is tight to my pipe going up into the stove? If so the ground is just as frozen around the pipe as elsewhere.l

[victor6deep]

http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf

Notice the temp changes with different velocity? 5gpm thru .875" is almost double the velocity as 5gpm thru 1"PAP. Faster velocity hides temp loss.

Let's say it this way, when fluid travels at the same velocity/speed and data is collected, the results look a lot different. But as you can see the logstor numbers are already there and can't get any clearer. Can't skew that data, nope no way to twist it.

Well if you don't wanna pay for ASTM labels, that doesn't stop you from posting the exact same test data criteria. You know so everyone can compare apples identically. But let me guess somebody figured out a better way to report test data than the hydronic industry norm. For btu/temp loss thru piping.

As far as High Q installer, I'm gonna guess that the thermopex didn't fail, but installation methods did. There's only so many ways to make that casing split, and other than a knife, I'd have to guess there was a leak from the fittings that compromised the the pipe and froze. I've seen that several times.

I'm waiting for Scotts reply.

[martyinmi]

Sprinter,
This spring when I dig my Thermopex up, I'll send you a pm and you can come over take a look at it and report your findings here.
You are probably about 150 miles from me. I will even buy you dinner if you make the trip. (Dollar menu at McDonalds)
While you are here, I'll show you how impossible it would be for my "installation method to have failed" when "bedding" it in a rock free, sandy loam soil 18" - 24" deep.
Also, while you are here, we will slice of a chunk of the closed cell poly-whatever and put it in my bench vice and squeeze the water out of it. You can video that and post it here if you'd like.
I have a 110' roll of Zach's product here right now. I only need 95' of it. Perhaps you'd like to buy 15' from me and do some heat loss calculations on it?

I'm not here to bash CB's product, but I will say that their system of quality control was lacking on approximately 50' of the 100' piece that I purchased. That 50' WILL be the first place that my yard will thaw out.

[Sprinter]

With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage. The ztile is more than just drain tile and far less likely to crack OR crush like the black tile alone. I have not come across a root compromised ztile but I have seen lots of the other. I wouldn't waste time and money with more tile, PVC, SDR or homemade is where any extra gain will come from. Spray foam kits wouldn't be so expensive if it weren't for the EPA regs and building your own would be just like running potable water mains. Stretching and pulling drain tile??? Might wanna. Test first, if you read the specs, it doesn't have ANY strength till it's buried. Our current drain tile with white PVC jacket says 3000psi crush strength, but that's only when properly bedded and backfiled to the ASTM specs.

Victor you might be a good test consumer for the forum. All we would need is an accurate flow measurement ( flow meter / calefi quick setter, zurn, Johnson control type),  pretty close footage measurement, and good temp readings.  The zpipe is probably the best of the foil wrap types and it has its place for those that can't budget the high dollar pipe. That goes for any part of the system as well. We would all love to buy the top of the line, I just don't like when I get a customer that was sold on the fact that its as good or better, it's just not a cheap component to have to repair.

Whether snow melts on yours or not all depends on the depth, soil moisture , frost line etc. Not everyone can view the pipe thru an infrared camera.

[victor6deep]

With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage. The ztile is more than just drain tile and far less likely to crack OR crush like the black tile alone. I have not come across a root compromised ztile but I have seen lots of the other. I wouldn't waste time and money with more tile, PVC, SDR or homemade is where any extra gain will come from. Spray foam kits wouldn't be so expensive if it weren't for the EPA regs and building your own would be just like running potable water mains. Stretching and pulling drain tile??? Might wanna. Test first, if you read the specs, it doesn't have ANY strength till it's buried. Our current drain tile with white PVC jacket says 3000psi crush strength, but that's only when properly bedded and backfiled to the ASTM specs.

Victor you might be a good test consumer for the forum. All we would need is an accurate flow measurement ( flow meter / calefi quick setter, zurn, Johnson control type),  pretty close footage measurement, and good temp readings.  The zpipe is probably the best of the foil wrap types and it has its place for those that can't budget the high dollar pipe. That goes for any part of the system as well. We would all love to buy the top of the line, I just don't like when I get a customer that was sold on the fact that its as good or better, it's just not a cheap component to have to repair.

Whether snow melts on yours or not all depends on the depth, soil moisture , frost line etc. Not everyone can view the pipe thru an infrared camera.

If I do a YouTube video and the pipe doesn't hold to spec can I get a refund so I can buy logstor?

[Scott7m]

Victor, it's one of those situations where I'm to tired to argue about it anymore.  I've posted pics on this topic and martyinmi situation too

In regard to the high quality tile ? It's white?  But I've not had fewer issues out of it vs the black tile.  I'm not bashing z supply at all but just saying both have seemed to work for us, I know Jeff and he's a good guy and I'm sure he has done his homework on the pipe, but I've not had any issues really with either company.   Although, badger has changed there foam inside the wraps now and it appears thinner

[mlappin]

With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage.

That's not exactly true, we've installed miles and miles of drainage tile on the home farm and leased ground. You have drain tile, then you can also buy solid tile without the perforations. For solid tile we only buy tile made of virgin plastic. We've ran this thru woods, along woods and thru fencerows, if it had a place for water to get in so will a tree root eventually, we've yet to dig any up due to plugging caused by tree roots. The only trick to keeping it root free is not to splice it, if you need six hundred feet then buy a minimum roll size of six hundred feet.

I could definitely see cheaper solid tile having a few defects in it that would allow water in, the same could happen if it was handled rough.

[Sprinter]

With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage.

That's not exactly true, we've installed miles and miles of drainage tile on the home farm and leased ground. You have drain tile, then you can also buy solid tile without the perforations. For solid tile we only buy tile made of virgin plastic. We've ran this thru woods, along woods and thru fencerows, if it had a place for water to get in so will a tree root eventually, we've yet to dig any up due to plugging caused by tree roots. The only trick to keeping it root free is not to splice it, if you need six hundred feet then buy a minimum roll size of six hundred feet.

I could definitely see cheaper solid tile having a few defects in it that would allow water in, the same could happen if it was handled rough.

There's no doubt what we use on the farm is different than what you'll find anywhere else for corrugated tile. I'm gonna guess that most won't know this difference but now were getting into cost

[mlappin]

With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage.

That's not exactly true, we've installed miles and miles of drainage tile on the home farm and leased ground. You have drain tile, then you can also buy solid tile without the perforations. For solid tile we only buy tile made of virgin plastic. We've ran this thru woods, along woods and thru fencerows, if it had a place for water to get in so will a tree root eventually, we've yet to dig any up due to plugging caused by tree roots. The only trick to keeping it root free is not to splice it, if you need six hundred feet then buy a minimum roll size of six hundred feet.

I could definitely see cheaper solid tile having a few defects in it that would allow water in, the same could happen if it was handled rough.

There's no doubt what we use on the farm is different than what you'll find anywhere else for corrugated tile. I'm gonna guess that most won't know this difference but now were getting into cost

Right, I'd stay away from TSC for tile. Cost is a factor though i'll admit. We still have enough tile we'd like to install that we still order by the semi load to get discounts.

If a person was looking to get some higher quality tile to slide their insulated line in I would suggest getting a phone book out and look under drainage contractor, they should be able to set you up.

[cantoo]

mclappin, TSC solid tile 2 years old. Search my user name and read my thread if you want.

[mlappin]

Like I said, I'd stay away from TSC for tile. I take it you split it to get the roots out?

I have seen cheaper brands that if you stepped on them or too rough back filling it they'd split right down the seams that the mold left.