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Author Topic: Underground Piping  (Read 6723 times)

capon3

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Underground Piping
« on: August 29, 2011, 06:10:34 PM »

I just purchased a Legend L-4135 OWB, and I need a little advice on insulating the underground pipes. I plan on running 2 one inch pex pipes in the foam insulation sleeves and then wrapping that in HVAC bubble wrap and then putting that in corrugated drain tile. The run will be approximately 90 feet to the basement wall. Also do I need a separate heat exchanger to heat domestic hot water? Thanks in advance for your help.
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Scott7m

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 06:43:29 PM »

hmm.....   I think if you shop around a little bit you can actually buy the line cheaper than you can  make it..  it will be much better stuff as well.  I have seen a lot of people try to do what your doing here and its often more headache than its worth. 

things to keep in mind.

1. the insulation in triple wrap is not bubble wrap, it is often a product called prodex.  Prodex has an r value nearly 3 times that of bubbe wrap at 15.67, and its only 5mm thick. 
2. pulling it through without damaging your insulation, thats hard to do. 

Now as far as your heat exchanger for your hot water, I will reccomend you getting a 20 plate heat exchanger with 1" mpt fittings.  It will make all the hot water you can ever use and will not allow the water get hot enough to cause a scald or anything like that as other models may do. 

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Scott7m

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 07:03:48 PM »

oh, and about the flat plate exchanger.  it's easy as pie, just splice into the supply line at your hot water heater, run the supply line into one side of the plate, come out the other port on the same side, and go right back to the supply line you spliced into thats feeding your hot water tank.  the plate exchanger's other 2 ports will be occupied by your furnace lines, it will come from your furnace and go to your plate exchanger first, and then on to your ductwork/plenum unit. 

no moving parts, no valves, nothing.  it's simple.  you dont have to change anything about how your hot water heater works either.  Only now instead of your hot water tank's supply line supplying 50 degree water to the tank, it will be going in at around 120-135 and never have to be heated.  It turns your hot water heater into a storage tank .
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Ridgekid

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 07:29:28 PM »

AMEN to heating the 50F water before the HWH and turning into a storage tank!  :thumbup: 

Wife can't wait for winter. We have lived here 19 years and she never said that once before.
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muffin

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 10:58:13 AM »

oh, and about the flat plate exchanger.  it's easy as pie, just splice into the supply line at your hot water heater, run the supply line into one side of the plate, come out the other port on the same side, and go right back to the supply line you spliced into thats feeding your hot water tank.  the plate exchanger's other 2 ports will be occupied by your furnace lines, it will come from your furnace and go to your plate exchanger first, and then on to your ductwork/plenum unit. 

no moving parts, no valves, nothing.  it's simple.  you dont have to change anything about how your hot water heater works either.  Only now instead of your hot water tank's supply line supplying 50 degree water to the tank, it will be going in at around 120-135 and never have to be heated.  It turns your hot water heater into a storage tank .

I have a 20 plate coming in the mail.  I was planning on installing it on the outgoing side of the current tank and turning the tank off when the furnace is running.  Thoughts on this as opposed to the intake side?  Would the tank not still heat occassionally to maintain the temperature?  I have a mixing valve too so the water will not be too hot.  Seemed that everyone recommended that soince the boiler could go as high as 180ish.
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Scott7m

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 11:36:06 AM »

I can give you a number of reasons why it's  better to go in the intake side. 

#1 send the mixing valve back, you wont need it.  look at it like this, if its on the intake side, the plate exchanger may only hold 1/2 gallon, thats probably an overstatement, so only 1/2 gallon would be as hot as your furnace water, and by the time it goes into your tank and mixes with the 130 degree water.  You wont  know the difference. 

#2 lets say your stove has a problem, wood doesnt fall down right, air vents get plugged up, been a long time since a fill up.  the water temp drops to 120 or so in your  boiler and its time for you and your family to get ready for work..  Guess what, no hot water.    If you would have used your hot water tank as a storage tank, you would still have 50 gallons of hot water ready for immediate use. 

#3  if the water entering the tank is 130 degrees and your tank is set on lets say 120, it will never have to kick on.  and the more hot water you use in the home is the less likely it would ever kick on.  hot water tanks today are insualted very well and use very little heat. 

#4 leave your hot water tank on, ive ran mine both ways just to see if it makes a difference and it does not.  but in the occassional circumstance where your stove gets cooled down, it will eliminate the case of this happening:  stove drops to 100-120, your wife takes a shower and pulls in 80 degree water, it's not to hard for the electric to make up the difference and it keeps "anyone" later from having to take a cooler than normal shower.

Sooo........ Just leave it on, it makes for more consistant heating of water if something messes up. 


I hope this is enough reason to make you want to put it on the intake side as there are no real advantages to putting in on the exhaust side. On the exhaust side you will have to run that mixing valve and then you'll have all the problems we talked about above. 
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Ridgekid

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 11:40:32 AM »

 :post: I second that recommendation!
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rhugg

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 02:51:50 PM »

Before you go buy a domestic water heat exchanger check with Legend or your dealer.  I though they came with a domestic coil installed in the boiler.

The negative is that the hot water has some 'lag time' but you can overcome that by circulating it thru your water heater?
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Scott7m

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 02:53:16 PM »

Before you go buy a domestic water heat exchanger check with Legend or your dealer.  I though they came with a domestic coil installed in the boiler.

The negative is that the hot water has some 'lag time' but you can overcome that by circulating it thru your water heater?

that may be an option on the legend.   even if it were on my stove I would still use a 20 plate, half the lines to run underground, and once again you dont have to use mixing valves and all that stuff to keep from getting scalded. 
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RSI

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 03:39:29 PM »

Before you go buy a domestic water heat exchanger check with Legend or your dealer.  I though they came with a domestic coil installed in the boiler.

The negative is that the hot water has some 'lag time' but you can overcome that by circulating it thru your water heater?
I  not use it either. The cost of the pipe usually is more than a plate costs.
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capon3

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 03:57:21 PM »

It does have the domestic hot water coil, but I was thinking the same thing that it would be cheaper to get a plate heat exchanger than buying the pipe.
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RSI

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 04:42:41 PM »

Somehow a word disappeared from my last post.
How many feet from the house are you going to put the boiler and what kind of insulated pipe are you planning on using? If it is close it might be worth trying it and run it into the tank the same way as Scott suggested running the plate. That way you don't get the lag.
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willieG

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2011, 05:26:53 PM »

my stove is 250 feet from the house i would guess when i fire up that stove in the fall (i don't turn the pump on until the stove is up to temp) it takes about 1 to 1 1/2 minutes untill the lines in the house feel too hot to touch. If you had to wait 1 minute for the water to get from your heat coil in the furnace to the house each time you turned on theh hot water tap pluse the time it normally takes to get through your house pipes i would guess you are waisting a lot of water. if you pay for this water that sucks. if you however are paying to run your pump to heat your home 24/7 allready then a plate exchanger in my mind is the way to go.

if you install lines big enough to run a  header system then you have all you need for multiple "appliances" my little taco 0011 has been running 11 years and pushing water to the furnace..a rad in my fireplace...and the domestic exchanger i built.
it also feeds my floor heat but that does have its own circulation pump and there is a rad on the return from the hot water coil to heat the basement if needed

just my 2 cents worth
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RSI

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2011, 05:43:42 PM »

Yeah if you have the DHW pipes completely separate from the boiler lines it you will have to run a lot of water before it gets hot.

The 4 line insulated pipe I sell has the pipes in 2 pairs. Each pair is separated so you will get some heat transfer between the pex that should keep the water in the lines hot.

If it is a short run it might be worth it but it adds over $1 per foot to the pipe cost.
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martyinmi

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Re: Underground Piping
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2011, 08:49:51 PM »

capon3-
   Do yourself a favor and definitely install a mixing valve in your application. There are times that you may end up with a heater nearly full of water that will be potentially hot enough to scald, and if you have small children running around in your home from time to time the last thing you need is the extra worry associated with water being hot enough to scald. My younger brother is a home inspector here in Mi. and he said he recommends to potential home buyers to have mixing valves installed in their future homes by the sellers. He couldn't imagine a licensed contractor not putting one in with either a plate exchanger or a tube exchanger set-up. There are times when my water gets up to 155* in my heater, which is plenty hot to do some serious damage. A mixing valve also makes your heater think it's bigger than it really is by keeping a constant supply temperature to items such as your washing machine and dishwasher. Check with local codes and I'll wager a mixing valve is required in your state. Other than that, sounds like you are on the right track. We like pictures!
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