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[almostplumb]

I'm new to owb.  After initial research am leaning toward P&M.  Local dealer is throwing my son and I a curve.  We wanted a gasser, e.g. the 250.  The dealer is pushing the BL configured for coal because first it avoids the EPA problem in PA and second because coal is cheap and abundant here.  His pitch is that gassers
are too finicky and we'll end up frustrated.  He stocks the BL's but will order a 250 if we want.  After reviewing most of these threads back to January, it seems
the problems are mostly the learning curve and a few technical issues that P &M (and slimjim) help you address.  We're not completely opposed to the BL but
are under the impression the 250 will be more efficient and slightly carbon friendlier.  We've used wood indoor in a German Weso for almost 20 years.  Never cut
a live tree.  The gypsy moth left enough red oak silver ghosts on our property to never need to cut living trees.  Dry wood will not be a problem.  Are there other
drawbacks to using a coal boiler for primarily wood?
The second question is sizing.  When he scared us about excessive tube maintenance, we looked at CB Eclassics.  Their 1450 seemed about the right size.  Based
on the EPA ratings it seemed about midway between the 250 and 350.  We're intending to heat a double English Tudor brick home built in 91.  It has a 2100 sq ft
main house and a 1200 sq ft in law apartment separated by a 3 car garage.  Both have forced air heat pump systems to which exchanges would be added.  In the
main house a 1200 sq ft basement needs to be added.  A 350 sq ft office is being added above the garage.  The apartment has a 400 sq ft enclosed porch to be
added.  The additions will probably get fin tube or cast iron baseboards.  Plus 2 water heaters will have exchangers added.  We're located at an altitude of 2000
ft.  Does this sound like too much for much for a 250 (which already prices in about $2K more than the CB 1450).  We understand that published numbers are at
best estimates and would appreciate some real world input.  Thanks in advance for any guidance you can give.  Our timetable is this summer.

[Jwood]

My guess is that he is pushing the BL because as a dealer he has fronted the money to stock the Bl and wants to move it if he had the 250 in stock he'd be pushing that. If you were originally leaning toward the Optimizer get it! They are good stoves slim will tell you. I wouldn't waste my time with coal. Let me guess the Bl stoves he has sitting there have shaker grates? They are both great stoves from a great manufacturer but don't let the dealer make your decision if you want less emissions and burn less wood get the Optimizer. That's my 2 cents

[Jwood]

I also don't think a dealer should be trying to talk anyone out of an Optimizer 250 or 350 based on too much maintenance that's just not helpful to P&M!

[Jwood]

What is your total sq footage that will be heated? Have you figured out your heat load?

[almostplumb]

Actually it's a father/son business.  The father pushes Natures Comfort, the son pushes P & M.  He has 4 3444 is stock with 2 of those supposedly sold.  In contrast they have about 30 NC's in stock.  I get the sense he is just more comfortable with BL's.  Also, the county they are in, next to the one I'm in, is very big in coal.  And his point of the BL's being load and forget while the gasser's require more attention is somewhat true.  In our mind though a 10 to 15% efficiency would be environmentally worth
it.  When I read of 30 to 50% gains, I'm suspected that's not from BL to Optimizer.
On the heat load.  Currently the heat pumps address 3300 sq ft which we'd like to expand to about 5500 plus 2 water heaters.  Heat load calculations are a bit obscure
to me.  I've read a normal home is 2 to 3 tons (or 24 to 36,000 btus) which would put our double at about 60,000 btu.  The additions would seem to put it around
100,000.  But the BL spec sheet indicates 4000 sq ft requires 225,000 btu and 8000 is 370,000.  However, the Optimizer sheet shows 5000 sq ft at 190,000 and so on.
The relationship between manufacturer's furnace max specs and a/c tonnages doesn't mesh obviously.  That is why I was hoping for some experienced input. 
Thanks for your feedback btw.

[slimjim]

Almost plumb, as I'm reading your post I am coming up with just over 5000 feet, I would prefer to know what your consumption of BTU's is and estimated load for the future, square footage is a horrible way to figure load, I visited one of our 250's on my way home in Kentucky that is heating a log home that is well insulated, it is over 6000 feet and burned about 10 cord this year but it is in Kentucky, all this needs to be taken into consideration and in my opinion the best way to do it is with a history, do you have the ability to get a history or at the least a true heat load of all of these additions, I have very little doubt the 250 will do the job for you as long as you do not live in a climate like I have here in Maine or you are trying to heat a chicken coup, where are you at, could you possibly make it to one of our shows in the northeast?

[Jwood]

There's no doubt that a gassifier requires more cleaning but that's how you maintain the efficiency. The coal thing is up to you me personally I won't mess with it, if you have wood then why would you want to is just the way I feel about. Some burn guys on here burn it, hopefully they will chime in. As slim said you don't want to go with square footage on picking a stove that just gets you in the ball park.

[almostplumb]

We will not do coal.  I grew up using coal so I've had enough enjoyment with it.   I guess I'm trying to make sure the 250 will do the job.  Again I'm not sure how to give you the best heat load estimate.  I suspect I can get the specs of the 2 existing heat pumps covering the current 3300 sq ft.  On the new footage, the basement is 3/4
underground and 1/4 exposed brick wall.  Being under the house, it has minimum heat loss.  We used a flueless propane unit to keep it usable but not real warm.
The added office will be well insulated above the garage.  The sun porch is insulated and currently uses baseboard electric.  So 5000 fairly well insulated sq ft is a
good number.  It is not Maine cold but at 2000 ft is probably comparable to Lake Erie, western NY cold.
I think the 250 should work as both the home and apartment have inside woodstoves should some extreme temps occur.  The house has the Weso and the apartment is upgrading a steel stove to a soapstone unit.  This forum has reassured me about the 250 unless someone states some precaution.

[Jwood]

If you google heat load calculators there are some free ones otherwise slant fin has one that is good. If you look up heat load help a post I posted there is a link in there.

[Jwood]

Are you planning on heating the garage if so what is the sq footage of that I didn't see that.

[mlappin]

From all my reading and research, numbers from the EPA don't mean squat.

Remember that gassers like to be ran hard with longer burn times being much more desirable than short cycling. Grossly oversizing a gasser is when you start hearing the horror stories.

[almostplumb]

BTW slimjim, is there a link to the northeast shows?
I'm not going to heat the garage.
I'll try one of the heat loss calculators.  I tried one earlier and it gave about 25,000 btu for the apartment which I expanded to the 100,000 btu number
earlier.  That didn't make sense with the numbers from any of the manufacturers and their footage.  slimjims 6000 sq ft example and your reminder about running hard rather than oversizing strongly reinforces the 250 choice.  Also trying to convince myself not too go the BL route just to save some up front cost.

[slimjim]

Almost plumb, with what you are telling us I have no doubt the 250 will do the job for you as long as you realize that you may need to lighten the load a bit in severe cold by using your existing system to help out and don't be afraid of the cleaning part as it takes me 8 minutes with my show boiler to clean it every 2 weeks, it sits on my show trailer so I need to brush the tubes while standing on a stepladder. Personally I think it is worthwhile for anyone that is concerned with emissions or has to buy their wood to go with the gasser.

[almostplumb]

Thanks, slimjim.  Is there a list of shows?

[slimjim]

Sorry, just saw your question about shows in the northeast, they are all posted on our website, our next show is in Richmond, Virginia and will be this coming weekend.