Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: robdogtn on January 10, 2015, 10:28:28 AM
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I just ain't paying the crazy money for the Logstor, so what are the best choices next? Rehau? Easy Lay 5 wrap? other?
New P&M 34-44 just arrived so time to get busy!
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Ther are plenty of other choices. But, it's like anything else. You get what you pay for.
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Thermopex and Rehau foam insulated pipe are of similar quality and capabilities as Logstor as best I can tell. Logstor is 1" ID where the other 1" variations are 1" OD. You can step up to 1-1/4" Thermopex for nearly the same cost for the same flow capabilities.
Don't fool with 3 wrap, 5 wrap, etc. They will fail in a few years and you'll either be digging it up to replace it with Logstor (or similar) or constantly feeding your boiler wood so you can heat the ground and your house. You just invested a lot of money in your boiler, don't skimp on the installation.
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:thumbup:
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Z-supply 5 wrap has been working great for me. I'm only on my first season with it but it's holding temperature great. The part that goes above the ground and into my garage has snow on it that isn't melting, and it's been below zero here. If there was heat loss it'd melt. I paid about 6.50 a foot if I remember correctly.
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I don't have experience with Logster or Rehau, so I won't comment on them.
I did use Thermopex for 6 or 7 years, and it was pretty good stuff.
Last spring I made the switch to Z-supply 5 wrap.
I really don't think that the top 3 foam insulated pex lines are as good as Z-supply's 5 wrap.
The reasons that the wrapped pipes transfer heat better are kinda hard to wrap(pun intended!)your head around at first, and I am a horrible communicator, so I won't even get in to them.
If you go to Z-supply's site and watch a couple of Jeff's videos, you'll quickly understand what I'm talking about. One of the things that really made me think(pertaining to heat loss/thermal transfer)was the emphasis on having a thermal break.
I won't bore any of you with my redneck experiments that I've done with both the Thermopex and the 5 wrap, but I will relay my findings of one said redneck experimentation:
In a 95' run(one way), my water temperature entering my home is almost exactly 1 degree hotter with the 5 wrap than with the Thermopex.
My water returning to the boiler is just shy of 2 degrees warmer now than what it was with the Thermopex.
I made the switch for a couple reasons.
1) I wanted to see if the wrap crowd (the folks who carry the better stuff that is manufactured like Z-supply's)were blowing smoke.
2) I had a buyer for my used Thermopex, so all the switch cost me was basically my labor.
Watch Jeff's video's when ya get a chance. You'll understand why less ($$$) is sometimes more!
I had one of my hvac friends help me do a simple heat GAIN calculation(simple for him anyways!) using the few variables that have changed in my system, as well as the ones that haven't(such as head, gpm).
Based on how much wood I consumed last year(around 8.5 full cords) and assuming my heat demand were the same this year, he figured I'd save somewhere between 1 and 2 full cords.
As always, your results may vary. ;)
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html (http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html)
If you'd like some more good reading, read the thread I linked above and you'll have a better understanding as to why thermal breaks are so important in preventing thermal conductivity to the earth. Go to the 8th post on page 1, or the 5th page(last one in the thread) and scroll down to the 5th post.
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I would chince on a stove before chincing on underground line. Logstor or thermopex. You can build a house foundation out of wood for less than concrete but what do you have in the end? Don't be a fool.
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When I guesstimated all the extra wood I've burnt over the years, the extra time to cut the extra wood, extra fuel and oil, extra wear and tear on the chainsaws, Logstor worked out to be pretty cheap.
Not to start a pissing match, but the old houses, siding on the outside, lathe and plaster on the inside, the air space between the two was called a dead air space, or more technically a thermal break.
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I would chince on a stove before chincing on underground line. Logstor or thermopex. You can build a house foundation out of wood for less than concrete but what do you have in the end? Don't be a fool.
x10 !!! """"Easy Lay 5 wrap""""" I wouldn't use that crap for nothing I paid like 20$ a foot .....add to that the fact that i'm so tight I could crimp off rebar with my but- h.o.l.e 8)
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absolutely agree....pay for the better quality pipe. I personally would not use a "wrapped" product simply due to the water intrusion concerns while in the ground. The Logstor and Thermopex brands are very tough and use closed cell foam on the inside. If you did have a pin hole, the water would not invade the entire pipe unlike a wrapped line.
Cando
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A big part on the failure of the tiled 5-wrap is how it was back filled. If it was backfilled with rocky soil and not sand then you are going to have a better chance at having it fail. Don't sit and tell ever that if you have a 5 wrap its going to fail. You bury sharp rocks next to your logstor and it will be able to puncture the outside. Back fill correctly. Also I know people that have taken 2" pink foam board insulation and made a long box in the trench one was 7 years ago and he spent about 150 on his underground lines. Just don't want people lurking out there to think that $10-$15per foot underground line is the only option.
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The Woodmaster dealer in town tried the 2in foam board as a box thing, worked great until water got in, he buried factory pipe after that.
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Im not saying its going to last but his has so far he's getting 24 hr burntimes out of his heatmor 200 all I'm saying is buy what you can afford if you can afford logstor perfect if you can afford 3 wrap perfect you are still burning wood vs propane.
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I ran Badger 5-wrap through 6" SDR35 bell end gasketed pipe, and backfilled with 1" crushed limestone. Came in at about $8.50/ft.
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I ran Badger 5-wrap through 6" SDR35 bell end gasketed pipe, and backfilled with 1" crushed limestone. Came in at about $8.50/ft.
:post:
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Badger 5 wrap is a good option. Good insulation, and extremely flexible compared to foam filled stuff.
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If you are concernd about a thermal break, run thermopex through a piece of 6" pvc for the underground run. That way you have the best of both worlds.
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If you are concernd about a thermal break, run thermopex through a piece of 6" pvc for the underground run. That way you have the best of both worlds.
I have less than two inches of cover on a section of my newly installed Logstor, don't think sliding it inside another pipe will do anything but cost more as I haven't had any snow melt yet.
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Logstor is good stuff. I must have misunderstood what was going on. :bag:
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I'm not an expert, but I took 5 wrap badger 6 inch pipe and snaked it through traditional 6 inch drain tile. the 5 wrap is actually 5 3/4 diameter so it fit tight into true 6 inch drain tile. Thus I have 5 wrap inside 2 drain tiles. The idea of a rock cutting the badger tile freaked me out so I wanted extra protection. Works awesome and was cheap to add the extra covering of tile. My 2 cents.
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That's the downside to any of the wrap style insulated pipes. IF (and it's usually a when, not an if) the outer pipe is breached, water will get in and completely ruin the insulating values of the wrapped insulation since it's not a closed cell foam. If you snake the whole thing through 6" sewer PVC or something, then the chances of a breach are slim to none and the insulation will work because it's trapping air.
Logstor, Thermopex, Rehau, etc. use a closed cell foam completely filling the pipe. The air bubbles trapped in that foam are stuck and water cannot penetrate into the foam and fill those air bubbles, thus they insulate. If the outer covering is breached, water still cannot penetrate the closed cell foam. Those brands also typically use a heavier duty covering than black plastic drain tile so tearing or puncturing the outer sheath is much harder to do.
The Badger stuff appears to use a closed cell foil foam. That won't let water into the foam, but since it's wrapped and not sealed around the PEX lines, water can still work it's way in and around the pipe.
The 5 wrap stuff or Logstor should all be able to run right across the top of the ground and have similar heat losses, typically not even enough to melt snow falling on it. Once you bury the pipes though, ground shifting, frost heave, etc. will typically find a pebble in the ground to rub up against the pipe and put a hole in it over time. If you live in a rocky area, you'll understand when I say that over time, rocks seem as though they grow up out of the ground. Rocks that previously didn't appear start to creep up to the surface over the years. The same happens under ground and, unless you bury your pipe well under the frost line, something more durable than your pipe will find it's way up against it.
To be honest, I've given plenty of thought to using the Badger stuff inside of 6" PVC. I'm only going about 40' with my new install so it'll be pretty cheap to buy 4 sections of PVC and a long sweep 90. It'll save some money over Logstor, but in the end, it won't save me any time. All said and done, it would save me about $300. Is it worth it for me? Probably not. If you're going to put in 200' of pipe, maybe.
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T- pex in coagulated 6" plastic pipe 2 "foamular on 3 sides ...then buried 4' to 3 deep..of bed rock /whatever came 1st ! (http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/atvalaska/IMG_1020.jpg) :thumbup:
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:bash: "wraps of closed-cell foil-faced aluminum insulation" wth!!! I must be going mad... ..someone tell me the r or the u factor on aluminum foil ... its a big fat zero !... or if you use the u factor its a million > "foil" is ONLY good "reflecting & conducting" and at that it....it needs to be near 2" off the surface to get a reflecting value to even start ....
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That's the downside to any of the wrap style insulated pipes. IF (and it's usually a when, not an if) the outer pipe is breached, water will get in and completely ruin the insulating values of the wrapped insulation since it's not a closed cell foam. If you snake the whole thing through 6" sewer PVC or something, then the chances of a breach are slim to none and the insulation will work because it's trapping air.
On the run from the boiler to the shop thats exactly why we laid 6 inches of mortar sand under it and six inches over the Logstor, where the main drive is we slid the Logstor inside of schedule 40 6" PVC. One part or another of that run was a driveway at one time or another so lots of gravel/small rocks in it.
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I don't have experience with Logster or Rehau, so I won't comment on them.
I did use Thermopex for 6 or 7 years, and it was pretty good stuff.
Last spring I made the switch to Z-supply 5 wrap.
I really don't think that the top 3 foam insulated pex lines are as good as Z-supply's 5 wrap.
The reasons that the wrapped pipes transfer heat better are kinda hard to wrap(pun intended!)your head around at first, and I am a horrible communicator, so I won't even get in to them.
If you go to Z-supply's site and watch a couple of Jeff's videos, you'll quickly understand what I'm talking about. One of the things that really made me think(pertaining to heat loss/thermal transfer)was the emphasis on having a thermal break.
I won't bore any of you with my redneck experiments that I've done with both the Thermopex and the 5 wrap, but I will relay my findings of one said redneck experimentation:
In a 95' run(one way), my water temperature entering my home is almost exactly 1 degree hotter with the 5 wrap than with the Thermopex.
My water returning to the boiler is just shy of 2 degrees warmer now than what it was with the Thermopex.
I made the switch for a couple reasons.
1) I wanted to see if the wrap crowd (the folks who carry the better stuff that is manufactured like Z-supply's)were blowing smoke.
2) I had a buyer for my used Thermopex, so all the switch cost me was basically my labor.
Watch Jeff's video's when ya get a chance. You'll understand why less ($$$) is sometimes more!
I had one of my hvac friends help me do a simple heat GAIN calculation(simple for him anyways!) using the few variables that have changed in my system, as well as the ones that haven't(such as head, gpm).
Based on how much wood I consumed last year(around 8.5 full cords) and assuming my heat demand were the same this year, he figured I'd save somewhere between 1 and 2 full cords.
As always, your results may vary. ;)
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html (http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html)
If you'd like some more good reading, read the thread I linked above and you'll have a better understanding as to why thermal breaks are so important in preventing thermal conductivity to the earth. Go to the 8th post on page 1, or the 5th page(last one in the thread) and scroll down to the 5th post.
What does he sell that stuff for per foot?
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I went with this stuff. http://www.insulseal.com/ (http://www.insulseal.com/) Its 4" sch 40 I believe...Glue the plastic together, caulk where the faces of the foam meet, pull plastic of one pipe over the seam and tape, pull plastic of other pipe over the seam and over the other pipe and tape, lay it in the trench (longer the run the more people needed), push the pex through it. My run was about 50 feet and below the OWB is a 45 degree elbow, they make them insulated too, It pushed a little hard but it went, If your going to be doing very long runs I'd guess a pull rope would help. This way pex can be changed if ever needed which isn't likely, in an emergency power could be run through it, but isn't recommended. I liked this stuff because its a true 1.5" of foam all the way around the pipe, the other stuff in the drain tile the pex lines come within half inch of the outter wall on the stuff I looked at.
Time will tell if this was the way to go or not
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What does he sell that stuff for per foot?
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When I called z-supply he gave me two dealers in Michigan to contact, as I live in Michigan. Zsupply won't deal directly with a customer as they promise their dealers they won't compete with them. The two dealers in Michigan didn't work out for me. One only carried 3-wrap, the other wanted about 11.00 per foot for the 5-wrap. I internet searched and found this guy in Wittenberg, WI: http://www.cozyheat.net/Contact-Us_ep_5.html (http://www.cozyheat.net/Contact-Us_ep_5.html)
I highly recommend him. Very helpful. He sold me the 5-wrap with 1" pex-al-pex for about 6.35 or 6.75 (can't remember which) per foot, drop-shipped from the factory in a 250' roll (I needed 230'). I've been happy with the product. I recommend you get the pex-al-pex so you have true 1" internal diameter, plus it's very easy to unroll as it doesn't try to coil back up (the aluminum keeps it from coiling back up).
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how much on the shipping?
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how much on the shipping?
I found my quote! Hard to remember the details 7 months later...
It was $6.54 per foot for a 250' roll, and shipping was $85.00. I'm about 7 hours north of the manufacturing plant in Michigan that it was shipped from, and it was a business address to ship to with a track loader and pallet forks to unload it off their truck. I seem to recall if you need it shipped and offloaded to a residence you have to pay a bit more.
The dealer's name is Steve. Very nice guy!
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Thanks ^-^ :post:
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What does he sell that stuff for per foot?
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I bought mine through RSI (Phillip).
I don't remember what I paid for it....I think around $6.25-$6.50....not really sure.
I'm only about 80 or 90 miles from the factory, so I went and picked the 150' roll up as opposed to having it shipped.
I had the opportunity to talk to Jeff(Zsupply owner) for about a half hour or so before Phillip showed up.
You'd be hard pressed to ever speak to a more knowledgeable and honest professional in any business anywhere!
I think you can contact about any dealer anywhere and he can have Zsupply ship it to your location.
I'd definitely recommend Phillip(RSI on this forum).
It worked out really well for me when I picked mine up. Phillip happened to be having a meeting with Jeff that day, so I was able to meet him as well. I put as much faith in what he tells folks here as I do Slimjim!