Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Portage & Main => Topic started by: Sloppy_Snood on January 20, 2016, 07:58:43 PM
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Does anyone else see the striking similarity between the new P&M EGR250 and the Polar Furnace G3 gassifying outdoor wood boilers?
Compare P&M EGR250:
(http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/medium/image3.png)
(http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/medium/image2.png)
To Polar Furnace G3:
(http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/medium/image.png)
(http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/500/medium/image1.png)
Anyone ever compare these two units?
They look extremely similar to me. Thoughts?
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They certainly seem to look alike.
I noticed several things about P&M’s newest one that shared several things in common with their previous models, mainly the draft induction used in their 100 and short run 350 models. Using a DC motor is clever though, continuous flow corn dryers have used a DC gear motor to vary the speed on the metering rolls practically forever, it’s a proven design thats simple and reliable.
Looks like a LOT of refractory material, and the included site glass into the secondary is a nice feature.
Heatmaster G series already have the removable air curtains although only on the sides.
Looked at the Polar as well, wonder if P&M is selling furnaces to them and allowing them to be rebranded as the similarities are far too numerous to believe that two separate companies came up with practically identical boilers.
After running my G Series since early November I’m a believer when it comes to the advantages of 409 stainless. I can take my pocket knife and scrape off what little creosote or ash I have on any surface and its still shiny underneath with no signs of corrosion starting unlike my previous mild steel unit that had flash rust every where before it was even filled with water.
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Didn’t Wood Doctor reorganize as Polar?
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It could very well be mlappin.
LINK: http://www.noutilitybills.com/OldProducts/WD/WDDiscontinued.html (http://www.noutilitybills.com/OldProducts/WD/WDDiscontinued.html)
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Has the EGR250 ever been certified? The Polar G3 has been. I doubt they are the same, clone maybe? If it's the same furnace it should have the the same certification.
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The only things that similar about these two boilers are:
1) They are both Canadian made.
2) They are both gassers.
It's past my bedtime right now, but if anyone is interested, I'll post the important differences between the two tomorrow evening.
And yes, the EGR250 easily passed testing.
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The Optimizer 350 is the only one listed on the updated epa list. I know there is sometimes a lag from approval to listing and was just wondering.
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The only things that similar about these two boilers are:
1) They are both Canadian made.
2) They are both gassers.
It's past my bedtime right now, but if anyone is interested, I'll post the important differences between the two tomorrow evening.
And yes, the EGR250 easily passed testing.
Please do explain the differences.
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thats sooo funny....polar furnace is identical to the wood doctor....just changed the decals......LMAO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Polar boilers are manufactured by the Silverwinds Hutterite colony in Sperling, Manitoba, they also were the manufacturer of Wood Doctor boilers. Portage and Main are manufactured by Piney manufacturing in Piney Manitoba. Polar, Heat Master and Portage and Main all incorporate design features that can be traced to a German/Austrian boiler manufacturer called Froling. Features like air curtains to keep the fire chamber walls dry, vertical heat exchange tubes with turbulators connected to linkage for easy cleaning and a round reaction chamber which gives you better combustion. European boiler manufacturers have been using these design features for years and they are now becoming standard in US and Canadian made gasification boilers. The Portage and Main is unique because it is a sectional boiler with water jacketed horizontal flues in the base section for extra heat exchange along with the vertical flues in the upper water jacket. Portage and Main also incorporates much more refractory, which is proven to give you a hotter burn and along with the air curtains help to keep the boiler dry. Keeping a boiler dry is key to longevity whether it is 409 or carbon steel. If you take a good look at the cross-sections of each boiler you'll see a lot of key differences. Polar's Max heating area square-foot for the G3 is 14,000 according to their brochure, I think that's a bit of a stretch, the Portage and Main EGR 250 is rated at 4000 to 6000 ft.² and weighs 450 pounds more than the G3. The extra weight would be attributed to the lower water jacket with extra heat exchange tubes and the extra refractory. If you go by the brochures and look at water jacket size and recommended heating square footage you have to compare the EGR 250 to the Polar G2, then the Portage and Main EGR is 1000 pounds heavier. I am looking forward to what martyinmi has to say later today.
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And yes, the EGR250 easily passed testing.
Passed testing... What does that mean exactly?
I see no claim on P&M's website that this boiler is EPA White Tag Phase II certified so... "Website update delay?"
Similarities I see include:
1. Sheet metal shape is the same
2. Vortex-style secondary burn system and chamber
3. Sacrificial side curtains in the primary burn chamber
4. Nearly identical location of the side access door (clean out?) at the juncture of the horizontal and vertical heat exchanger tubes
5. Nearly identical location and operation of the side, manually-actuated vetical turbulator lever.
6. Front and center sight glass on secondary burn chamber door
... and many more similarities it appears.
Much more than just Canadian-manufacture and gassification units in similarity to my eye.
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I think your right. It has not passed EPA white tag. The other question I wonder about is whether the ultimizer is coal only independent lad tested. UL or other. Strawbale's website says if it can burn coal it's legal. The way I read it it must be independent lab tested coal only. I was at a farmshow recently and no tags were on the stove, not even a brand name.
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Polar did not invent those features they have been in use in Europe for some time, Heatmaster also incorporates some of the same features in their gasser. Check out Froling's website. The Ultimizer shaker grate model is tested and listed for coal only and has been for years. You can pull up the brochure on the P & M website.
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The EGR 250 is a sectional boiler with an upper water jacket and vertical flues like Polar and Heatmaster but it is the only boiler I have seen that also has water jacketed horizontal flues in the in the base.
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Polar did not invent those features they have been in use in Europe for some time, Heatmaster also incorporates some of the same features in their gasser. Check out Froling's website.
I made no claim that Polar Furnace nor Portage & Main invented any features I previously mentioned ???
That said, what NEW PRODUCTION (meaning, as if January 1, 2016) Portage and Main products are actually manufactured and for sale in the United States and meet the EPA White Tag Phase II requirements?
I know there is the Enviro-Chip 500 Burner and it is not EPA Phase II White Tag and has been discontinued. Remaining inventory can be sold in the U.S. for commercial use only.
No more BL Ultimizers (non-shaker grate version) can be sold in the U.S. Never an EPA White Tag Phase II qualified boiler.
Optimizer 250 and 350 gassifiers CAN BE purchased but from remaining dealer inventories. As they are no longer listed on the P&M website, I ASSUME they are discontinued models now??
The EGR250 Optimizer may pass testing but without certification, it means "no dice" for U.S. Customers wanting a P&M boiler with certification.
What EPA White Tag Phase II P&M wood boiler residential units are now available for the U.S. Customers? :-\
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http://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-08/documents/hhcertifiedwood.pdf
Being the government I’m sure it’s not up to date.
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Top line it says as of Jan 2016
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First: I am not a Communications major in any way, shape, or form.
Second: You guys are killing me! :bash: I do understand what is on the EPA's approved (certified) outdoor wood-burning furnace list; unfortunately, that s not what I am driving at and asking about.
The Question again (second time):
what NEW PRODUCTION (meaning, as if January 1, 2016) Portage and Main products are actually manufactured and for sale in the United States and meet the EPA White Tag Phase II requirements?
The answer? I guess I will try to answer my own question.
As I listed in my last post, I will clarify that I am NOT referring to:
- coal boilers
- old P&M inventory
- Pre-January 1, 2016-P&M boilers specified on the EPA's list
For outdoor WOOD-burning furnaces, P&M's website and the EPA's approved OWB list seem to deduce the following:
The ONLY brand new, after January 1, 2016 Portage and Main outdoor wood-burning furnace that is EPA White Tag Phase II-approved and listed for legal sale and purchase in the United States of America is the $30,000+ Enviro-Chip 500 chip boiler (Optimizer 350 is discontinued so it doesn't "count" for U.S. sales now as it is no longer manufactured)
A single, $30,000+ dollar boiler for legal U.S.A.-eligible sales as of January 1st, 2016? :o
Am I correct or incorrect here? :-\
Set me straight information insiders! :thumbup:
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Top line it says as of Jan 2016
Sorry, what I meant was there may be some out there that just got approved and not on the list yet.
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I am looking forward to what martyinmi has to say later today.
You covered everything that martyinmi (that's me) had to say, plus a whole bunch more! :thumbup:
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Thanks martyinmi!
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Reading through this thread I'm as confused as Sloppy...These two units do seem almost identical. Both companies now have brochures and specs posted for these units. www.polarfurnace.com and www.portageandmainboilers.com
Visually look at the outer shell similarities, the bends and proportions seem way beyond chance.
Polar G3: 75"Hx42"Wx78"L Firebox 14.0 cu ft Firebox L 27"(wood length)Door 15.5"x22" Weight 2,750lb, Water capacity 250, 200K BTU output, Heats 14,000 sq ft
EGR 250:74"Hx42"Wx68"L Firebox 12.7 cu ft Firebox L28" Door 15.0"x18" Weight 3,200lb, Water capacity 160, 250K BTU output, Heats 4K-6,000 sq ft
Again, look at the outer shell, the bends, chimney location, cut-a-ways and the specs. Seems way beyond coincidence. Sperling mfg plant and Piney mfg plant are only 95 miles apart
Both seem to have horizontal and vertical exchange tubes and the same exchanger cleaning system. The EGR probably gets the extra weight from refractory weight.
Polar G2 and G3 can be found on the February EPA Certified list www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-08/documents/hhcertifiedwood.pdf, while the EGR is not shown.
Not that it matters, but who is the real owner of this design and who is actually manufacturing these units is intriguing.
Polar G3 200,000 BTU output and heats 14,000 sq ft?
EGR 250 250,000 BTU output and heats 4,000-6,000 sq ft? Where do all these numbers come from? Or rather who makes them up?
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Polar G3 200,000 BTU output and heats 14,000 sq ft?
EGR 250 250,000 BTU output and heats 4,000-6,000 sq ft? Where do all these numbers come from? Or rather who makes them up?
These numbers are pointless at best.
3500 square feet of brand new ultra efficient house is a hell of a lot easier to heat then 2000 square feet of 1800’s farm house.
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I'm not sure what is going on here or if I should even comment but I'll give you my take.
Almost all good boiler manufacturers are located within about 4 hours of one another.
All the manufacturers spy on one another, at shows, at home sites and some even buy competitions boilers in order to reverse engineer them. Sometimes, the competition is even invited into the factory for input
Some times it takes a year to get boilers tested and approved on the EPAs website as happened with the Enviro 500, I'm not sure if the EGR 250 has been tested and passed yet!
I know of one that is running, it seems to be a good burning unit, the home owner is pleased with it's performance so far, it's been running for about 4 months.
It is a sectional unit and can be dismantled in the field.
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as stated already the type of home you are heating will have a LOT to do with your btu usage.
well insulated with good windows ans such will require less btu per square foot than a leaky old century home that has hadlittle renovations done to it
lets just do a little math....200,000 btu devided by 40 btu per square foot per hour (used here in Ontario for guestimating and older home) would mean you could heat a 5000 square foot home on the coldest night of the year
now if you used that same 200,000 on a 14,000 square foot home you would get the result of about 14 btu per square foot! perhaps if you are living in florida you may be able to heat your home on the coldest night of the year?
I would say the guy telling you that you could heat between 4 and 6 thousand square feet is being far more honest
I have a small home that I used to rent out that had electric heat and I can tell you this...the home is in southern Ontario Canada, it only has an uninsulated crawl space (working on that) but it has new windows and 6 inch stud walls with pink fiberglass insulation and in the dead of winter (the coldest temps and wind) that little house could use about 30 btu per square foot and I have seen it use less than 10 btu per square foot on a winter day of just freezing but sunny outside
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I couldn't agree more Willie. That's exactly what I meant about "pulling a number out of the air". Claims of heating 14,000 sq ft with that unit in the real world seem ridiculous. SlimJim shared his thoughts on these units, anyone else have any thoughts on the uncanny similarities between these models? Almost seems kind of like when ProFab was building the same model for a number of companies and just hanging a different name on them. i.e. Pacific Western, Global Hydronics, etc. Those were exact replications while these have some slight differences, but sure seem to have come off the same drawing board. Again I'm not saying it is good or bad, just a bit of a mystery.