Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Shaver Furnace => Topic started by: abide on October 28, 2013, 06:22:35 PM
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I just got done installing a 75 cfm blower on my 165 replacing the stock 50 cfm. I did this for two reasons. The stock 50 cfm bearings were sounding bad and I installed altheatingsupply.com damper kit which supposedly only works with the 75 cfm blower. After installation I loaded up the firebox and about 10 minutes later I had a blowtorch coming out the chimney. I watched the chimney looking like a roman candle for about 10 minutes until I blocked off about 2/3 of the fan opening with duct tape. It wasn't creosote burning just wood. I measured the stack temp at 450. Has anyone else experienced this with the fan upgrade? If so what did you do? Leaving it as it was is not going to happen. Too many embers were going up in the air too close to my wood framed summer kitchen.
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Did you add more pipe to the chimney or just use the short one that came with the stove? I have a 3 ft stainless added to mine.My stove will do that once in a while if its really loaded and just smolderin and gets that rush of air from me opening the door it will catch fire for ten minutes or so then go out.In my case though I'm pretty sure its creosote burning off. I have the stock blower with the damper mod.I'm with you on those hot embers flying out that is cause for concern. Do you have a cap on it? mines wide open.
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do you have a chaine or rod to adjust the flaper on the blower if so ajust it down to only open 1/2 inch you have to play with it to get it right i have a 10 foot stack but if the flaper is open to far it will torch
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WOW what a waste of good heat, and a real safety hazard!
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With the fan opening duct taped 2/3 it seems to be working well. I did notice a small flame coming out last night right after I loaded it. Overall the damper mod seems to be improving the efficiency. I don't have a chimney extension, just the standard 3' or so. Wow...torching out of a 10 ' chimney! I still see some embers coming out and am thinking of welding up some sort of spark arrestor.
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Not sold on the need for the flapper or larger fan. We're running the 50cfm fan on 1/4 opening and its plenty of air. Any more than that just blows heat out of the chimney. No issues during fan shut down either.....
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To be honest I don't think I needed the upgraded blower. With it taped 2/3 of the opening it is not pushing out more than 50 cfm anyhow. I think the flapper would have worked on the stock blower without much of a problem. The flapper however, was a great purchase. It is night and day when looking at the smoke output when there is no call for heat. Most of the time all I see is occasional wafts of steam coming out and nothing else. Tomorrow the cold returns and I should get a better idea of the efficiency improvement.
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Abide and Swede, I think your right in that you do not need the auto damper if your happy with it the way it is. If you want your wood to last longer though and be more efficient I would say it is important. Plus with leaving the teardrop open 1/4" it allows air all the time whether the fan is running or not and your temp. could raise higher then you realize or want it to. This damper closes completely the fire smolders until it calls for heat.
It is easier to use the 75 cfm it is predrilled for the damper plate for either Alternative or Weld Rite. You can use the 50 cfm but extra care has to be taken when drilling the holes for the flapper. If your not careful a screw can hit the fan!
If you have the fire coming out the stack as you said duck taping is a good fix. You can get a chimney cap from Weld Rite to help knock the embers down also. Flue extension and extension adapter will help also, these items can be purchased at Weld Rite as well!
All new furnaces come with auto dampers and a chimney cap now! :thumbup:
Greg Steinacher Shaver Dealer
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Just ordered the upgrade kit from Alternative, should arrive this coming Monday, trouble is we are in the teens here in Mo. Will probably wait till the weather improves. What am I going to need to purchase as far as fittings etc. to make the upgrade complete. I was told I need to T off from the house supply to install the dry well, that sounds like a few fittings, what else? I have the blower, flapper, digital read out, dry well, and what ever else comes with the package.
Also I want to put a class A chimney in place to cut down on the build up, can I buy one that slides down over the existing chimney? What/how should I seal it off with? I have the 165 pro series, bought in Nov. of 2011
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You should have an unused well already on the back of the boiler unless you are pumping two zones from the boiler. Take a look. In that case you won't need any extra fittings I believe.
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You should have an unused well already on the back of the boiler unless you are pumping two zones from the boiler. Take a look. In that case you won't need any extra fittings I believe.
I am often accused of having a loose grasp of the painfully obvious, but I don't think I have a dry well of any type, I am only using one zone, there is of course the outlet for the other zone. I don't know what a dry well looks like, haven't got the order yet. Man on the phone said I would have to "put in a T".
Another question; I am beginning my 3rd year of use with this 165, put in the 5 gal of expensive rust block that Shaver sold me. I was told my Altheatsuppy that I would need to drain my tank to make the upgrades of the blower, damper, dry well etc.; and that I SHOULD DEFINITELY drain out the rust block because it is CORROSIVE, and replace it with their Protech 300. After reading all the posts about Shaver and problems, I don't know who to believe and who to trust nor what to do. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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A 'drywell' is simply a well into the boiler that is dry but comes up to the temperature of the water. So I believe the kit comes with a drywell for the aquastat sensor. All you do is take the cap off of the other bung where you would put another pump on the back of the boiler and screw the drywell into this. You only need to lower the water level to a level below where that drywell is going to go so that you can take the cap off and screw it in.
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Thanks, that makes sense. Should I flush the tank? As I said, I am beginning my third season. Do you know if the rust block that shaver sold, "attacks" the metal, as I have been told?
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Scott should be able to chime in about the water chemistry.
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If you don't want to drain ANY boiler water, somewhere on this site is a description of a drywell made out of copper pipe and fittings that drops in from the top. You just need to drill a hole in the top of the water chamber and drop it in place. the temp sensor then drops down inside the copper pipe. There should be plenty of wire on the sensor, I had to coil a bunch of mine up when I installed it.
My Shaver manual talks about using boiler water treatment by Wood Boiler Solutions LLC (WBS). I keep reading about the expensive stuff Shaver pushed, but I never did get that pushed on me when I bought my Shaver. WBS has not only the treatment solution, but they have chemicals that you can also flush, clean and passivate your system. They have always been very helpful to me. When I cleaned my stove, I did not want to circulate all of that stuff thru my lines and heat exchangers, so I just ran a short pipe between my inlet and outlet on the back of the stove, fired up the stove and added the chemicals and circulated it according to the instructions and only in the stove, not thru the rest of the system. Once I flushed it, then filled it with their 101 solution. I am only on my 2nd heating season, but have not had any problems yet. I just tested my Nitrate levels tonight and they are holding up. If you call or email WBS they can probably get you headed in the right direction. Weld Rite should honor their products since they are referenced in the owners manual for their stoves.
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http://www.woodboilersolutions.com/ (http://www.woodboilersolutions.com/)
I meant to put this on my last post.
Good Luck!
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I put my drywell thru the top,read back in the shaver section and there is a couple good decriptions on were to place the drywell.If you take the siding off the back gable end that will give you a little room to work, open up the inspection plate so you can see into the water jacket you will be able to figure the right placement.If you can mount the controller indoors,its a lot nicer then having it in the back of the stove.good luck.
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Here is the back of my Shaver with the Rancho which I assume you are installing. Left of it is the drywell installed by Shaver, but you could as easily run the temp sensor end up to the top of the boiler.
The small blue line is the not used fill line since my well water is too hard (I haul water to add). I heat the house and a detached shop and put 8 thermometers in my two loops. the other 4 are in the in and out at the water to air heat exchangers.
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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Here is the back of my Shaver with the Rancho which I assume you are installing. Left of it is the drywell installed by Shaver, but you could as easily run the temp sensor end up to the top of the boiler.
The small blue line is the not used fill line since my well water is too hard (I haul water to add). I heat the house and a detached shop and put 8 thermometers in my two loops. the other 4 are in the in and out at the water to air heat exchangers.
Say Wood Nutt...can you email me photos of the rear of your Saver, but have the photos in the vertical position? My neck gets stiff looking sideways. LOL! I think I might need to do some modifying of my unit come warm temps. Thanks
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Lugnut, Probably the easiest solution is to lay down on the couch with your laptop on a TV tray and look at my pictures from there :D You can also soak up all of the warmth from your stove percolating outside! :thumbup:
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wood Nut,
Looks really good, have one suggestion though. You should be coming from the top of the furnace and returning to the bottom. Heat rises and the water is warmer up there.
Is there any special reason you did it this way?
Greg Steinacher
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I also have my pump coming out the bottom and return line go to the top so the pump dont work so hard and gravity/water pressure helps push the water.
When I was installing the owb I went back to the Web site many times and found they had a update on one of there pages saying they found a better way to hook up the stove and it was this same way.
it made sense to me so I followed there instructions.
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Greg, my Shaver manual says "Recent research has shown that its better to have the pump at the bottom and the return line where the pump is shown now! Simply reverse what is shown and you will have a better setup". It says this on page 21 of the manual. That is why I set it up this way, manufacturer recommended. I also remember reading when I was researching that with the pump on the bottom, if the stove were to boil over and lose a bunch of water, its less likely to ruin a pump. I keep track of the stove and hope that never happens, but it is unattended most of the time.
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Wood Nut,
One of my customers did the same thing. There was supposed to be an insert in the manual that stated to disregard putting the pump on the bottom. Sorry you did not get the insert. If you are happy with the way it is I see no problem. The only other thing is if there would be any sediment, like lime or something it will go in the pump with it being on the bottom.
Hope this helps.
Greg Steinacher
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Thanks Greg. The manual looks like it could use a general overhaul, a lot of apparent corrections and updates put in it over the years and being stuck in there at various places is pretty obvious. Its not the easiest read for a manual in my experience.
I will probably leave my stove as is. I ended up hauling water to fill it initially and also haul water and fill it with a nurse tank I built to keep it topped off, so not much chance of anything getting in it since I use municipal water and transfer it between two different containers before it goes into the stove (the 5-gal container I haul fill water in and then the 15-gal nurse tank that pumps it into the boiler. I just hope I don't have alot of the manufacturing gunk that some of the other posts on this site show! I have circulated enough now, I think I would have sucked something in there by now if it was going to happen.
I wonder how much stratification happens in the stove since I run my pumps 24/7 and things are continually circulating. My heat well for the Ranco is in the upper part of the tank and when it is pulling heat out at the house and/or shop, dumping the cooler water in the top, the temp in the top is lower than the thermometers I have where water leaves the boiler at the bottom. Since the cold water should sink when it enters the boiler, doesn't it have to pass by the heating chamber and would gain the heat back when passing thru? it also dumps in at the back and pulls water out from the front of the boiler, so also has to pass thru the length of the tank too. What do you think about that theory?