Print

[victor6deep]

What's the theory behind this?

[slimjim]

HUH

[victor6deep]

HUH

Slimjim, you know what im talkin bout dude?

[slimjim]

No I really don't understand your question, Pump speed or water flow has very little to do with wood consumption. Wood consumption would have far more to do with heat load and heat loss, pump speed / flow has lots more to do with Delta T and not shocking the boiler with cold water being returned to the boiler.

[Scott7m]

Here we go again lol

Pump speed does not change the btu requirements of your home is the most simple answer

Second, you or most would anyway, want there pump to pump fast enough to have a proper delta t

I'm playing around with a taco bumblebee pump right now, it slows down and speeds up based on demand with delta t sensors, Sooo, when there is no load on it, the water slows to a couple gpm, in theory I'm pushing less btu through the lines, but I'm not seeing any advantages to this in terms or wood usage... 

But back to reality, pump speed should be appropriate for delta t, if you can run on med vs high and have proper delta t, you'll save on electric but not wood


By the way, the reason for the bumblebee pump is electric savings not wood.....   I though it would be interesting to see if there were any fringe benefits but I don't see any other than the little sucker is using 9 watts of power most of the time, where your broeder is running 185 watts on medium.   The bumble bee only runs 42 watts on high, broeder is about 260 if I remember correctly

[victor6deep]

Here we go again lol

Pump speed does not change the btu requirements of your home is the most simple answer

Second, you or most would anyway, want there pump to pump fast enough to have a proper delta t

I'm playing around with a taco bumblebee pump right now, it slows down and speeds up based on demand with delta t sensors, Sooo, when there is no load on it, the water slows to a couple gpm, in theory I'm pushing less btu through the lines, but I'm not seeing any advantages to this in terms or wood usage... 

But back to reality, pump speed should be appropriate for delta t, if you can run on med vs high and have proper delta t, you'll save on electric but not wood


By the way, the reason for the bumblebee pump is electric savings not wood.....   I though it would be interesting to see if there were any fringe benefits but I don't see any other than the little sucker is using 9 watts of power most of the time, where your broeder is running 185 watts on medium.   The bumble bee only runs 42 watts on high, broeder is about 260 if I remember correctly


I've been pondering getting a bumblebee but not sure if it would move enough water compared to the broeder.

[Scott7m]

Didn't you say you were 60ft away with 1" pex through a plate exchanger and a coil!?

[victor6deep]

Yes

[Scott7m]

Sure..  It would work.. 

I've got more pex than you, 20 plate, and coil. 

[victor6deep]

Running 165-180 guys and gals and have the E9 pushing tidal waves of treated water. What another dumb thread initiated by Vic 6 Deep. Booyah

[slimjim]

Oh come on Victor you know we all love you anyways

[Sprinter]

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/100-68.pdf

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Pbrz8wwcI

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=caYoFXWzgRg


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hYOYY40-HDg

Yup, here we go again. There are no dumb posts, someone will always learn from questions. I couldn't post the direct videos on more details on how variable speed pumping does save fuel, not just electricity. It can't get any clearer and easier to understand, you just have to break the old way of thinking and self taught theory.
In one of the videos, it shows where you can sign up for free and use the taco flo pro university courses and videos. Lots to learn and understand. Or just watch the 2 other videos on variable speed pumping.

[Scott7m]

There is some circumstances where it only needs to send the amount of heat it needs.   In those cases yes it can be more efficient.  But for the general public and 99% of outdoor boiler installs protecting the stove with a proper delta t is most crucial. 

I have tested pumps here and went down to ducmenting wood use via weighing it and moisture checking, documenting temps, and never saw any wood savings between my bumble bee and lets say a grundfos 15-58

Thats not to say that in a complex boiler system where there is in floor heating, storage tanks, and stuff like that that proper zone pumps etc arent important to the design

However nearly all of my installs are very simple, most consist of a 20 plate heat exchanger and a 16x18 coil over a forced air furnace.

Like slim was saying the other day, how many folks do we see with a cobbled up boiler system but have a 60k dollar truck

Well, all I can say is, im not sure who you all work for.  Most all of my customers are trying to decide how to get through the next month, how are they gonna put food on there table next month when there electric bill is 600 bucks.  So when it comes to the install, all we can do is offer them the best and let them to buy what they can afford. 

I know premium lines like logstor are hard to beat, but many of my customers stagger backwards when I tell them my cheapest line sets are 6 bucks per foot.  Some even leave immediately cussing under there breath callin me who knows what

So its like comparing apples and oranges..  if someone can afford mass storage, 20k dollar installs etc, then they have the ability to chase every speck of efficiency available.  I get jobs like that as well, but if I depended on those to run my business, id starve the first month.  I live in the poorest region in our nation.

Once again, not saying your wrong, but for the way outdoor boilers are gernally ran proper sizing of the pump to help protect the stove from low return temps is our main concern.  However most dont even concern themselves with that. 

[Sprinter]

Awesome reply Scott, very well said. Just the fact that you use a 15-58 pump on the supply is rare, I think I've only seen a couple.  That being said, most are shoving 20-40 GPM on a call or worse they run them 24/7. And using a delta T circ will show more savings. They make the VDT SERIES from 006-0014.  When making these kind of changes , it's NOT Always a swap and go, full understanding and tweeking. It's not difficult to make improvements, I wouldn't describe it as chasing ever ounce of efficiency. And there's no need to spend 20 large in any residential app. That's for the yuppies with too much money. Even a non leaking , non gasser can be improved a lot , just with standby losses and pex upgrade or improvements.

I completely understand about getting a system you can afford, since this is why some are even looking at wood in the first place. I think as long as the consumer knows the differences and they make the educated choice, it's OK. But we both know its more like, " I'm quoting the cheapest equipment available to make the sale"  type of sales that goes on most of the time. It gives the good guys a bad rap, and the good guys need to police their industry. Best they can before the sale. I'm by far not the biggest, nor do I do the most. But I am one of the most recommended. I know I'm gonna loose jobs cuz I'm higher, but my customer knows enuff when I'm done to make his own decision. And his pocket book sometimes makes his. I know I'll probably see them soon to fix or upgrade, and the I told you so. But rather than mass quantity, I take pride having my work shown off, or saving a boiler that was going to be abandoned and not getting the horror story complaints. I couldn't sleep at night with that.

[Scott7m]

Yea, the ones where they tell you to do it like youd do your own and hand me the bill are awesome and a ton of fun.   

Ive been in areas where there was enough money flowing that folks could afford to take the good jobs and ditch the cheap ones.  There are some products I cant and wont selll but all we can do is recommend they buy the best they can afford.  Where you get in trouble is cutting prices for the guy who could afford to do it right but wont cause hes a cheap skate lol