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[Roger2561]

Hi all - I need an education regarding propane tank-less water heaters.  My younger brother and I are building an apartment for him on the second floor of my home.  It'll be heated with baseboard emitters from my OWB.  His oven/stove will be Propane not electric.  He wants to have his own domestic hot-water from a propane tank-less water heater.  I know nothing about these things.  Everything I've read is from the manufacturer and they rave about their units.  Can someone offer an unbiased opinion of these things; pro or con?  Thanks, Roger

[DonE911]

Not what you are looking for probably, but I was Chef in a restaurant that installed one for the kitchen.  After the 80 gallon gas hot water heater(it worked perfectly)  left and the tankless went in.....  we never ran out of hot water..... not on the busiest night with the dish washer going full out all night long.  Now the water was hot, but not as hot as the tank model after it had a chance to idle..... 

No way to tell you how much more or less gas it used though....... everything in a commercial kitchen runs on gas... 

So......yes it they work

[MerrellRoofing]

My plumber buddy said they are going around swapping tankless out for tank style heaters now because they get plugged up. The water is not that good around here though. A lot of lime in it. CB dealer recommends sidearms around here because plate exchangers will plug. That's my .02.

[slimjim]

Roger, would it not be cheaper as well as more effective to simply tap into your tank and let him pull from that, you may need a recirculation pump so he has hot water right away but you are looking at spending a considerable amount of money to install an instantaneous gas water heater as well as losing control of the gas bill, that is unless he's willing to pay for it all, if you do get one, do yourself a favor, do not shop on price!

[Roger2561]

Thanks for your input everyone.  I appreciate it.  For some reason my brother thinks that the 40 gallon indirect water tank that is heated by my OWB will not be enough water for 2 people.  Mind you neither one us is married, we're both bachelors.  I need to shower everyday due to running between 2 to 5 miles before heading to work, depending on what my body is telling me when I get out of bed in the morning.  My brother however cannot shower everyday due to a skin condition.  I cannot imagine that my OWB will not be able to keep up 40 gallons of water.  Slimjim, You mention a circ pump in the line, where would you install it, as close to the indirect as possible or closer to the apartment?

Now that I have everyone's attention, does anyone know the water pressure should be in a typical home?  This is what I have; Before the water pump comes on, the water pressure in the house shows 40 pounds.  When the pump comes on the pressure gauge will go up to 60 pounds.  As soon as the pump stops running the pressure drops to 40 pounds immediately.  Is this typical of home operation from well water?  The reason I ask is that the pressure at the fixtures appears to be lacking, especially at the shower.  Thanks everyone.  Roger     

[slimjim]

The circ pump would be installed anywhere in the loop but the loop would have to continue from the tank out to his need and then back to the tank in a continuous loop, the circ simply moves the hot water around the loop so he doesn't have to wait for the water to come all the way from your tank.
 Pressure, most homes run 30 - 60 pounds of pressure, depending on your cut in and cut out settings, Roger does your pump short cycle when the water is being used, if so then more than likely the expansion tank on your well water has a bad bladder in it, the tank would need to be replaced.

[Roger2561]

The circ pump would be installed anywhere in the loop but the loop would have to continue from the tank out to his need and then back to the tank in a continuous loop, the circ simply moves the hot water around the loop so he doesn't have to wait for the water to come all the way from your tank.
 Pressure, most homes run 30 - 60 pounds of pressure, depending on your cut in and cut out settings, Roger does your pump short cycle when the water is being used, if so then more than likely the expansion tank on your well water has a bad bladder in it, the tank would need to be replaced.

Thanks for the info on the circ location.  I'll mention it to my bro.  I hope I can talk him out of the gas water heater.  I see no reason why a 40 gallon indirect hookup will not be enough water for the 2 of us.

And, yes, the well pump DOES short cycle.  Does the expansion tank have a shrader valve on it like those on the pressurized heating system?  Do you know what the pressure should be set to?  Is replacing it something a home owner like myself can do?  I'm pretty handy with tools...  Thanks, Roger   

[slimjim]

Yes it does have but if there is no air in it, it is junk, yes it is easy to replace, simply shut off your well pump, drain down the pressure and replace the tank, running the pump with the short cycling will destroy the pump in short order so it should be a priority!

[Roger2561]

Thanks for the info Slimjim.  When I get home tonight I check for the presence of pressure in the tank.  Any idea what's a typical pressure setting in these expansion tanks?  I'm guessing it's dependent on the size but I thought I'd ask.  Roger

[slimjim]

It's not the pressure but instead the presence of air that has to be there, they normally run 30 - 60 pounds

[12valve]

Roger, My family of 5 loves hot shows.  We have a 40 gallon tank and have never ran out of hot water.  I would at least try it before you go to plan b.

[Roger2561]

Slimjim, I understand what you're saying.  Thanks for the help.

12Valve - Thanks, I'll be sure to pass this info along to my brother.  Roger 

[Corngrinder]

To offer my $0.02 -

I have a tankless water heater.  It's relatively new.  Two things I would be very sure of before considering an install on this is a water softening system and a sediment filter (especially if you're on a well).  The heating elements inside a tankless heater will plug up much faster than a in a tank. 

It was very easy to install and takes up significantly less space than a tank.  The particular model I have has a dial gauge to set the temp.  I set it to 113 degrees... that's where I like my shower temp.  The water gets to that temperature and I don't have to adjust cold water at all; all I do is turn the hot on and go - I can take hour long showers if I want. 

You can also hook a plate HX up before the tankless heater and utilize your OWB.

[slimjim]

Good points Corngrinder, a lot of the earlier models had trouble with the exchanger plugging and controls, I think they have figured most of that out now. I still think in a case like Roger, he would be far better off to run a recirc pump to his brothers apartment.

[Roger2561]

Slimjim - One of the concerns my brother has is, will there be enough hot-water if both of us happen to use his shower in his apartment at the same time I'm taking my shower downstairs.  I never thought of that.  I understand that if we staggered our shower times, there would be more than enough water for the both of us.  Perhaps if I swap out the 40 gallon indirect for something a bit larger, will ease his concerns.  Roger