Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Scott7m on April 10, 2014, 03:39:09 PM

Title: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 10, 2014, 03:39:09 PM
http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/04/10/we-are-becoming-a-global-danger-epa-tested-dangerous-pollutants-on-humans/ (http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/04/10/we-are-becoming-a-global-danger-epa-tested-dangerous-pollutants-on-humans/)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 10, 2014, 04:19:21 PM
EPA="My way or the highway"  >:D
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 10, 2014, 06:29:05 PM
Glenn Beck, that guy is a fruitcake!

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 10, 2014, 06:36:41 PM
My favorite Back in Black clip is on Glenn:

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/04rkt0/back-in-black---glenn-beck-s-nazi-tourette-s (http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/04rkt0/back-in-black---glenn-beck-s-nazi-tourette-s)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 10, 2014, 06:43:04 PM
Yes beck is a fruit cake, our precious govt would never harm us, we need them and there climatologist to save us, to protect us from our own stupidity, 

If Kool aid came from a cows tit, some people would obviously choke to death on it
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 10, 2014, 06:47:56 PM
Yes beck is a fruit cake, our precious govt would never harm us, we need them and there climatologist to save us, to protect us from our own stupidity, 

If Kool aid came from a cows tit, some people would obviously choke to death on it
No one knows how to milk a cow anymore!

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 10, 2014, 07:01:50 PM
Kneal, if you and your overlords have your way, we won't be able to.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 10, 2014, 08:41:13 PM
Neal,
I know how to milk a cow (1400 head 3x/day).
I know how to recognize a troll.
I know what a fruitcake SOUNDS like.

Troll elsewhere, fruitcake!




Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 10, 2014, 09:42:53 PM
Neal,
I know how to milk a cow (1400 head 3x/day).
I know how to recognize a troll.
I know what a fruitcake SOUNDS like.

Troll elsewhere, fruitcake!

Damn, 1400 huh, hardcore.

I had enough of the dairy biz when we were milking 225.

If I was ever to get back in, would have robotic milkers.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 11, 2014, 05:06:57 AM
I like milk! I don't like govt. Stealing my LIBERTIES, or monies to fund things that I personally do not agree with and I despise people who refuse to understand the corruption going on in front of their noses by govt. Kneel, if you choose to bury your head in the sand then don't be surprised when your neighbors absolutely defend what they have worked hard to hoard away for really bad times from people like you and your cronies, I can tell you that when Marshall law happens, around my place, looters will be shot period, neighbor or not.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 11, 2014, 05:43:54 AM
I can't wait till the goose step party people realize that their savings are being taken away too.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 11, 2014, 05:54:25 AM
2 years ago I told the father of my Godson who is a good friend of mine that at the time thought being a prepper was stupid, when Marshall law happens he should not come to my place as there would be no help there for him and that he would not be welcomed, he has since given it more thought and begun to think for himself, he has a long way to go but to me that is the only way to beat them, one family at a time and locally, the exact same thing Beck has been saying since he left Fox, I guess thinking for yourself and being prepared is stupid, we should all simply be sheeple right Kneel.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 06:12:15 AM
Baaaa baaa baaaa

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 11, 2014, 07:31:02 AM
I consider myself fairly well-educated and somewhat level headed and I think Glen Beck is "more correct" than he isn't.  :o

Like Ted Nugent, the message is really there with the facts,,, it is just the "in your face" presentation and the words chosen to communicate that my liberal, progressive, socialist-leaning, "there is no need for any boundaries on anything" friends cannot get past.  ::)

Maybe Led Zepplin had it right all along? :-\ ....  Communication Breakdown.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 11, 2014, 07:46:48 AM
 I think it may be better stated as ( meet the new boss, same as the old boss )
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: oldchenowth on April 11, 2014, 08:53:10 AM
I guess I am slightly confused here.  Given the fact that Beck is a fruitcake, I have never met him, he has stated facts as he has found them.  Yet we are expected by some to not believe them as presented.  Yet the other dicussion on here about global warming is supposed to be swallowed whole as fact because of evidence presented. I deduct that human experiments done without full disclosure is a lot more alarming than a one or two degree increase in temperature over the last 50 years.  I just don't like governments doing the exact opposite of what the people are expected to do and thinking that is all well and good.  If I cannot steal from my fellow man, don't steal from me.  If you do, don't be surprised when I get upset and defend myself.  The downfall is coming and the Husseins of the world are waiting to pounce, why the government is leading us all to slaughter, including themselves, is my bigger concern. 

Forgive my ignorance and lack of willingness to spend my entire life diving into an issue or issues just to argue how much more right I am than someone else.  I am undereducated and I can live with that.

Sorry about the rambling.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Big Wood on April 11, 2014, 09:03:35 AM
hay Slim jim keep your eyes on Nevada and see what the Federal Government wants to take now it does not mater what agency it is
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 11, 2014, 01:24:51 PM
hay Slim jim keep your eyes on Nevada and see what the Federal Government wants to take now it does not mater what agency it is

Federal cattle thievery!  >:(


LINK:  Tea Partyers, Libertarians Join 'New Ruby Ridge' Battle Against Feds (Click Here) (http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/tea-party-libertarian-join-nevada/2014/04/11/id/565102/)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 01:51:20 PM
I don't listen to Beck a lot, gets a little too preachy for my tastes. But anybody that prioritizes family, god, country and the constitution must be a fruit cake right?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 11, 2014, 02:25:31 PM
I guess I am slightly confused here.  Given the fact that Beck is a fruitcake, I have never met him, he has stated facts as he has found them.  Yet we are expected by some to not believe them as presented.  Yet the other dicussion on here about global warming is supposed to be swallowed whole as fact because of evidence presented. I deduct that human experiments done without full disclosure is a lot more alarming than a one or two degree increase in temperature over the last 50 years.  I just don't like governments doing the exact opposite of what the people are expected to do and thinking that is all well and good.  If I cannot steal from my fellow man, don't steal from me.  If you do, don't be surprised when I get upset and defend myself.  The downfall is coming and the Husseins of the world are waiting to pounce, why the government is leading us all to slaughter, including themselves, is my bigger concern. 

Forgive my ignorance and lack of willingness to spend my entire life diving into an issue or issues just to argue how much more right I am than someone else.  I am undereducated and I can live with that.

Sorry about the rambling.
Who is expecting you not to believe presented facts? 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: TheBoiler on April 11, 2014, 08:06:36 PM
I am unconvinced about global warming. Too many snouts in the trough.

And if it is true I am convinced that nothing that is proposed will stop it.

Glen Beck is entertainment, not sure what happened and why he changed, fruitcake sounds a reasonable description.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 08:22:07 PM
If Glen beck would be a little less of religious I would like him more. 

There is more truth out of him in a 15 minute segment than youll find on the mainstream media in a week

20 kids stabbed this week in a school, media talked about it 95% less than they would have if it involved a gun. It didnt fit there agenda
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
 
If Glen beck would be a little less of religious I would like him more. 

There is more truth out of him in a 15 minute segment than youll find on the mainstream media in a week

20 kids stabbed this week in a school, media talked about it 95% less than they would have if it involved a gun. It didnt fit there agenda
:post:

The wife has family in England, latest talk is banning kitchen knives over a certain size.....

They already are good little sheeple and gave up their guns decades ago.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 11, 2014, 09:09:31 PM
Global warming not saying its happening or not happening but this year Antarctica set records for the amount of sea ice I guess so who really knows scientists are gonna defend what they study so they can continue to get funded and paid is the way I look at it!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 11, 2014, 09:14:07 PM
I am unconvinced about global warming. Too many snouts in the trough.

And if it is true I am convinced that nothing that is proposed will stop it.

Glen Beck is entertainment, not sure what happened and why he changed, fruitcake sounds a reasonable description.
There is no way to argue that we have not warmed over the past 200 years.  It simply has happened.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 11, 2014, 09:15:02 PM
Global warming not saying its happening or not happening but this year Antarctica set records for the amount of sea ice I guess so who really knows scientists are gonna defend what they study so they can continue to get funded and paid is the way I look at it!
Antarctic sea ice increase can very well be an indicator of warming.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
Global warming not saying its happening or not happening but this year Antarctica set records for the amount of sea ice I guess so who really knows scientists are gonna defend what they study so they can continue to get funded and paid is the way I look at it!
Antarctic sea ice increase can very well be an indicator of warming.

Neal

Really?? Seriously?? Back in the 70's the next ice age was on its way in, then global warming became the next catch phrase and all the polar bears were going to be extinct by now because the polar ice was going to be gone and Florida was going to be under water years ago. Now an increase in polar ice is because of global warming?

Jesus, Mary and Joseph the carpenter, is anything NOT caused by global warming?

Next time I eat Mexican and have a horrendous case of gas can I blame global warming for making the beans more gaseous?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 09:42:31 PM
I farted, take that Antarctica

Good Lord Jesus and the shepherds.....  No matter what anyone says its, oh I bet thats global warming

Kneel sheeple, 200 years my friend, 200 years.   Thats a blink of an eye in the time of earth existence.

since u go back to 1800, what caused the global warming then?  Buffalo farts?  Camp fires? 



I just cant imagine the mentality or lack there of for the global WarMing crowd to say antarctica melting is proof of the global warming, now the sucker adds 500k sq miles of ice in a year and its because of global warming lol

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 09:50:59 PM
I've read more than a few articles claiming global warming will be required to keep up with the demand for food. More co2 available for plants and warmer temps generally mean bigger yields. Don't even try to tell me it ain't so, I do this for a living. Best yields we've had so far was 2012, hot dry summer with a few lucky rains and we hit 260 bushel corn on ground that when I was younger we were happy with 130-140 bushel to the acre. Had some 70 bushel beans with our average at 61 bushel/acre. 30 bushel beans used to be average, 50 bushel beans was outstanding. 180-200 bushel corn is our average now with beans at 57 bushel average.

Seed genetics plays a big part of course, as well as going to 100% no-till. But the hotter the year, the higher our yields have been. Might just be  a fluke, but we've been building our soils for a few generations now, neighbor down the road is old school. Non existent beans in 2012 and 60 bushel acre corn.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 10:23:32 PM
Warmer temps would likely be a good thing indeed in regard to food

I sure dont like the idea tho of everyone being dependent on the system and all these gmo foods. 

I wish more folks fended for themselves, I know it aint possible, but I fear the consequences on such a dependent world will be scary
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 10:38:17 PM
Theres a trade off though, less GMO's equals more pesticides and herbicides unless you go full organic.

Since planting roundup ready beans, BT corn and going to 100% no-till on all our acres our chemical use has steadily gone down.

Organic has it's uses as well, as we've been planting cover crops so there is always something green growing which helps reduce weed pressure,reduces runoff and reduces burndown herbicide rates in the spring, unfortunately a lot of the world can't afford it. While on occasion organic yields can and do exceed conventional yields, the average though is less than half of conventional.

Some of these new GMO's are pointless and is just Monsanto trying to corner more of the market. I've been exposed to haymaking in one form or another for 40 years and don't see any point in roundup ready alfalfa. Herbicides already exist for use with alfalfa anyways, and if done properly none are needed anyways. Start with a clean seedbed, plant correctly with a cover crop to keep any weeds at bay and mow often before any weeds can goto seed, no weed problem then.



Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 11, 2014, 10:42:13 PM
Round up is some bad stuff there realizing now, many countries are outlawing it and Dr mercola had some excellent articles on the topic a while back, Google mercola round up and you should be able to find it

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 11, 2014, 11:06:43 PM
Only read one article I googled. One inaccuracy caught my eye immediately.

If this was true "It takes twice as much water to produce a pound of a Roundup-ready crop soybean plant treated with glyphosate, as it does with soybean plant that's not treated with glyphosate." Then how did we grow 71 bushel round up ready beans in 2012? Considered one of the worst droughts since the dustbowl? We had a few timely rains in our area, some that the next county over didn't see, but I also didn't mow the lawn for seven weeks that summer. Nothing to mow. Fed the beef cows hay all summer as the pastures gave up by the first week of June that normally last till the end of August.

Most of these studies also use the premise that roundup is the only chemical applied and every time it's applied it's at the maximum rate. We've never needed the max rate, if everything else works correctly it's applied once in the spring at a quarter rate.

In the past we have grown tofu beans, seed oil beans and another odd ball and roundup ready beans in different fields the same year. Some of the approved chemicals for those other non roundup beans had a restriction of 18-24 months before other certain crops could be grown after the application of those non roundup chemicals while round up had none.

I'll certainly agree that in the pursuit of cornering the market and making obscene profits a lot of things aren't tested near as much as they should be. But, whats the alternative?

The world could become a very hungry place in a very short amount of time. Already this year with talks of a possible drought again in areas of the corn belt and the drought in Brazil prices are rising for commodities, some late planting this spring (which is a very real possibility depending what the weather does in the next few weeks) then if the drought does happen later in the year, there will be shortages again which is what drove the prices so high in 2012.

High hay prices in the winter of 2013 from the hay shortage due to the drought of 2012 drove some dairies right out of business in our area. I did kinda feel bad for some of those guys having to pay such high prices for hay that winter, on the other hand I also vividly remember selling hay in the past below the cost of production a couple years in a row due to a surplus.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 05:26:06 AM
Global warming not saying its happening or not happening but this year Antarctica set records for the amount of sea ice I guess so who really knows scientists are gonna defend what they study so they can continue to get funded and paid is the way I look at it!
Antarctic sea ice increase can very well be an indicator of warming.

Neal

Really?? Seriously?? Back in the 70's the next ice age was on its way in, then global warming became the next catch phrase and all the polar bears were going to be extinct by now because the polar ice was going to be gone and Florida was going to be under water years ago. Now an increase in polar ice is because of global warming?

Jesus, Mary and Joseph the carpenter, is anything NOT caused by global warming?

Next time I eat Mexican and have a horrendous case of gas can I blame global warming for making the beans more gaseous?
Yes really.

No you cannot blame global warming for your farts.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 05:30:33 AM
I farted, take that Antarctica

Good Lord Jesus and the shepherds.....  No matter what anyone says its, oh I bet thats global warming

Kneel sheeple, 200 years my friend, 200 years.   Thats a blink of an eye in the time of earth existence.

since u go back to 1800, what caused the global warming then?  Buffalo farts?  Camp fires? 



I just cant imagine the mentality or lack there of for the global WarMing crowd to say antarctica melting is proof of the global warming, now the sucker adds 500k sq miles of ice in a year and its because of global warming lol
What does 200 years being a short time compared to the length of time the planet has been around matter to anything?  Are you implying that because the earth has been around a long time that change can't happen in short time spans?  That makes no sense at all...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 06:34:35 AM
I think we are all just saying not all of us are confident in everything climatologists say, and 200 years compared to 4.5 billion is not in my opinion long enough to know for sure!
Scientists/ climatologists need stuff to study so they can continue to get paid and funding so they have plenty of motive to keep yelling global warming, I'd imagine they probably get all the funding they need!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 06:37:59 AM
I CAN'T WAIT to get back home and KILL some TREES!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 06:39:54 AM
I think we are all just saying not all of us are confident in everything climatologists say, and 200 years compared to 4.5 billion is not in my opinion long enough to know for sure!
Scientists/ climatologists need stuff to study so they can continue to get paid and funding so they have plenty of motive to keep yelling global warming, I'd imagine they probably get all the funding they need!
It makes no sense to say that 200 years is not long enough to know.  That's simply silly.

There is far more money in denying warming than promoting it.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 06:48:14 AM
Ok Neal all I'm saying is I'm not convinced it may be happening it may be not. There's not a whole lot I can do about it!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 06:54:07 AM
I think what is happening financially and politically in our nation is far more important right now than stealing more of my money to fund more of this type of research, where are we at, somewhere north of 17 trillion dollars in debt and still climbing, when does it stop?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 07:00:19 AM
Exactly what slim said!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 07:06:44 AM
Ok Neal all I'm saying is I'm not convinced it may be happening it may be not. There's not a whole lot I can do about it!
How can you not be convinced, it is quite clear via factual data that we have warmed over the past 200 years.  What you are saying doesn't make any sense.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 07:08:05 AM
I think what is happening financially and politically in our nation is far more important right now than stealing more of my money to fund more of this type of research, where are we at, somewhere north of 17 trillion dollars in debt and still climbing, when does it stop?
The small amount of money we spend on science is a drop in the bucket - yet still far more important than many other aspects of government that need reduction.  Military, welfare, ect.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 07:22:22 AM
Do you drive a smart car Neal?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 12, 2014, 07:51:33 AM
Humans havent been on this planet long enough to know if a warming climate is good or bad, or if we are outside normal ranges. 

So did buffalo farts cause global warming to start in 1800?  Or was it the musket barrels of the civil war? 

This Earth has warmed and cooled for billions of years,  if u look at the earths life as 24 hours, u aint gonna learn crap about it by looking at the last 6 seconds of the day..  If its that long

The earth has been much hotter than it is now, its been much colder.  Humans cant be blamed for those because we werent freakin here.   It was natural.

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 08:19:05 AM
 :post: Scott I agree!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 08:53:14 AM
Humans havent been on this planet long enough to know if a warming climate is good or bad, or if we are outside normal ranges. 

So did buffalo farts cause global warming to start in 1800?  Or was it the musket barrels of the civil war? 

This Earth has warmed and cooled for billions of years,  if u look at the earths life as 24 hours, u aint gonna learn crap about it by looking at the last 6 seconds of the day..  If its that long

The earth has been much hotter than it is now, its been much colder.  Humans cant be blamed for those because we werent freakin here.   It was natural.
You keep coming back to a good/bad ideal, which is an ambiguous label.  Change can be both good and bad.  Outside of our general baseline will cause problems for our species.  Those problems can be viewed good or bad. 

Did you fall asleep during history class or what?

Of course the Earth has warmed and cooled for billions of years.  That has no bearing on our current situation, and involvement in the present change. 

You make no point, of course the Earth has been warmer and cooler before.  Yet again, that has no bearing on our current situation and involvement in the present change.  It is a pointless argument.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 08:53:50 AM
Do you drive a smart car Neal?
I do not.

I drive a 2500 Dodge Ram.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 08:55:13 AM
Do you drive a smart car Neal?

Nah, unless he's a complete hypocrite he'd walk everywhere as even a smart car contributes to global warming couldn't ride a bicycle either as as the manufacturing process would contribute to global warming.

He'd also cut all his wood by hand with a buck saw and split it by hand as well as any gas powered tool would add to global warming.

He'd also use a wheelbarrow to bring it all from the woods to the stove as even using a mule and wagon would add to global warming.

He'd also have his house running a hundred percent off solar as using electricity from the grid adds to global warming.

He'd have his kids pedaling a bicycle with a generator on it for those long winter days with no sun for when the solar doesn't work.

In other words he'd live in a cave.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 09:02:50 AM
Nice little video that covers about everything. Even the BS happening in Nevada right now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 09:14:41 AM
 :post: mlappin!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 09:32:51 AM
Do you drive a smart car Neal?

Nah, unless he's a complete hypocrite he'd walk everywhere as even a smart car contributes to global warming couldn't ride a bicycle either as as the manufacturing process would contribute to global warming.

He'd also cut all his wood by hand with a buck saw and split it by hand as well as any gas powered tool would add to global warming.

He'd also use a wheelbarrow to bring it all from the woods to the stove as even using a mule and wagon would add to global warming.

He'd also have his house running a hundred percent off solar as using electricity from the grid adds to global warming.

He'd have his kids pedaling a bicycle with a generator on it for those long winter days with no sun for when the solar doesn't work.

In other words he'd live in a cave.
Loads of blather.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 09:33:45 AM
Nice little video that covers about everything. Even the BS happening in Nevada right now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc)
Idiotic propaganda intended for weak minded individuals.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 09:53:37 AM
Neal,

And we are back to insulting members of this forum eh?

Typical response from the left, environuts, and the animal rights folks.

Can't discuss it in a calm rational manner then they resort to name calling instead.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 09:55:06 AM
What do you do for a living Neal?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 09:57:21 AM
Nice little video that covers about everything. Even the BS happening in Nevada right now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc)
Idiotic propaganda intended for weak minded individuals.

Neal

Man, how ironic, that's exactly the way I feel about people who fall for the idiotic propaganda called global warming.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 10:35:48 AM
Neal,

And we are back to insulting members of this forum eh?

Typical response from the left, environuts, and the animal rights folks.

Can't discuss it in a calm rational manner then they resort to name calling instead.
Seems to me I replied to you insinuating that I was a hypocrite.....  thus the onus would be on you.

Doctor heal thyself.

If you think I am a left leaning environut animal rights guy you are an idiot or ignorant, take your pick.

I'm calm, you are the one who seems to have bunched up panties, and trying to incorrectly label me with some asinine qualifiers.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 10:36:40 AM
What do you do for a living Neal?
I'm an engineer and farmer.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 10:39:27 AM
Nice little video that covers about everything. Even the BS happening in Nevada right now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc)
Idiotic propaganda intended for weak minded individuals.

Neal

Man, how ironic, that's exactly the way I feel about people who fall for the idiotic propaganda called global warming.
If you wish to disregard factual data (that the earth has warmed over the past couple centuries) for some hack opinion piece that provides and insinuates inaccurate positions be my guest. 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 10:45:41 AM
Oh so you are not a climatologist? You had me convinced you were  :o
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 10:49:56 AM
Oh so you are not a climatologist? You had me convinced you were  :o
I did, how so, did I make some predictions about the weather? 

I don't recall doing so....

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 10:50:22 AM
Oh so you are not a climatologist? You had me convinced you were  :o

 :post:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 10:52:22 AM
Neal,

And we are back to insulting members of this forum eh?

Typical response from the left, environuts, and the animal rights folks.

Can't discuss it in a calm rational manner then they resort to name calling instead.
Seems to me I replied to you insinuating that I was a hypocrite.....  thus the onus would be on you.

Doctor heal thyself.

If you think I am a left leaning environut animal rights guy you are an idiot or ignorant, take your pick.

I'm calm, you are the one who seems to have bunched up panties, and trying to incorrectly label me with some asinine qualifiers.

Neal

Back to the name calling.

I didn't call you a hypocrite, I said you'd only be a hypocrite if you didn't practice what you preached.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 10:53:38 AM
No if you did that I would have thought you were a meteorologist :bash:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 11:14:27 AM
No if you did that I would have thought you were a meteorologist :bash:
So you are insinuating that I made some prediction or guess as to how the changes in our climate will impact our biosphere?

I don't recall doing that either....

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 11:19:09 AM
Neal,

And we are back to insulting members of this forum eh?

Typical response from the left, environuts, and the animal rights folks.

Can't discuss it in a calm rational manner then they resort to name calling instead.
Seems to me I replied to you insinuating that I was a hypocrite.....  thus the onus would be on you.

Doctor heal thyself.

If you think I am a left leaning environut animal rights guy you are an idiot or ignorant, take your pick.

I'm calm, you are the one who seems to have bunched up panties, and trying to incorrectly label me with some asinine qualifiers.

Neal

Back to the name calling.

I didn't call you a hypocrite, I said you'd only be a hypocrite if you didn't practice what you preached.
I no more called you a name than you did of me, as I only said you would be an idiot or ignorant if you thought I was one of those labels you did or did not attach to me.... (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/c-n.gif)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 11:20:03 AM
Nope you are just onboard with everything about global warming that has been fed to you and now you are on a site trying to plead your case to us. Some of us may believe but some may not all we really care about on this site is burning wood, do you have a owb?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 11:34:06 AM
Nope you are just onboard with everything about global warming that has been fed to you and now you are on a site trying to plead your case to us. Some of us may believe but some may not all we really care about on this site is burning wood, do you have a owb?
(http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)

What kind of crap are you spewing?  You have no idea what has or has not been fed to me, nor any real idea of my position on the matter.  You are simply jumping to an ill conceived conclusion.

Take off.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 12:13:37 PM
You didn't answer my question.........
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 12, 2014, 12:21:54 PM
So if the earth has had a lot of climate changes in its life.. how do we know how much of it is us? If major warming and cooling has happened WAY before humans had any impact on the earth this too could be a natural cycle could it not? I agree we have a negative impact on the environment but  that doesn't mean we are 100% the reason the climate changing.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 12:22:24 PM
You didn't answer my question.........
Indeed.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 12:29:01 PM
So if the earth has had a lot of climate changes in its life.. how do we know how much of it is us? If major warming and cooling has happened WAY before humans had any impact on the earth this too could be a natural cycle could it not? I agree we have a negative impact on the environment but  that doesn't mean we are 100% the reason the climate changing.
It is hard to know our exact impact, however our actions induce the same influences that natural processes do.   

It could, however there are no naturally occurring phenomena that can explain it.  It is also possible (and apparently likely that man is playing a role in the warming).

In all likelihood we will never be able to know the exact amount of the warming is directly attributed to natural phenomena (which is really the sun's output, as it is about the only thing that man doesn't influence in the climate system), and what percentage man is directly and indirectly responsible for.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 12:46:19 PM
Neal, you still did not answer, Jwoods question, you are really showing your colors as a Liberal, DO you own an OWB! please allow me to ask you directly! how do you feel about burning wood, rather for heat or fuel for transportation?????????????"???????????????????
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 12, 2014, 01:23:21 PM
"DO NOT FEED THE TROLL"

He'll never go away if we all keep feedin' him guys!

We can all see 'ol Nealie for what he is, but he's convinced himself that he's something entirely different.

Just leave him be and maybe he'll take to trolling elsewhere.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
How did all those funny little faces get on my post, whodunnit.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 12, 2014, 01:36:57 PM
How did all those funny little faces get on my post, whodunnit.

Global warming.......
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 01:44:44 PM
Neal, you still did not answer, Jwoods question, you are really showing your colors as a Liberal, DO you own an OWB! please allow me to ask you directly! how do you feel about burning wood, rather for heat or fuel for transportation?????????????"???????????????????
First off, if you think I am a liberal you are a dumbass.

I do not presently own one, but my new house will have one, and my father has a Central unit.

I have no problems burning wood for fuel for heat, why would I?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 01:48:43 PM
"DO NOT FEED THE TROLL"

He'll never go away if we all keep feedin' him guys!

We can all see 'ol Nealie for what he is, but he's convinced himself that he's something entirely different.

Just leave him be and maybe he'll take to trolling elsewhere.
You have no idea what I am, and I sure as hell am not a troll.  I have not started any threads about anything other than legitimate OWF topics.

The issue here is I'm not ignorant, and have the ability to admit our planet has warmed over the past two hundred years at a very significant rate.   That doesn't make me a liberal, a troll, an animal rights nut, or any such label that has been bandied about here.  It makes me a realist.  If you, or anyone else here can't handle evidence and factual data to back up a correct position I pity you.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 01:50:32 PM
How did all those funny little faces get on my post, whodunnit.

Global warming.......
Al Gore probably hacked some accounts!!  ; :D

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 01:56:49 PM
Neal, the thing that in my opinion, is the fact that you quote info derived from studies funded by my stolen tax dollars and promote more of it makes you a liberal, if you want those studies then please fund them without my dollar and I will be all good!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 02:00:21 PM
Neal, the thing that in my opinion, is the fact that you quote info derived from studies funded by my stolen tax dollars and promote more of it makes you a liberal, if you want those studies then please fund them without my dollar and I will be all good!
Promoting spending (reasonable) on education and science does not make me a liberal.  Stating such nonsense makes you a fool.

I guess we will never be good then.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 02:10:12 PM
Yes it does you liberal!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 02:11:11 PM
All that stolen money obviously has been well spent in your opinion then, no of course I'm ignorant and you surely are not a liberal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 02:19:23 PM
Neal could you please enlighten us ignorant people oh what we can do to save the planet, "I want to live" do we need to start building arks like in the movie 2012?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 02:27:28 PM
Yes it does you liberal!
haha

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 02:28:18 PM
Neal could you please enlighten us ignorant people oh what we can do to save the planet, "I want to live" do we need to start building arks like in the movie 2012?
I have no idea, I never promoted or said we could save the planet.

What do you suggest?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 02:29:24 PM
All that stolen money obviously has been well spent in your opinion then, no of course I'm ignorant and you surely are not a liberal
Not all of it no, a large majority of it has been well spent.  Much more so than out welfare systems (military and social).

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 02:31:30 PM
I don't suggest anything I drive a diesel :o
Plus I'm not the one saying the world is warming.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 02:39:53 PM
I don't suggest anything I drive a diesel :o
Plus I'm not the one saying the world is warming.
Ya, we are well aware you have no problem ignoring the fact the world is warming.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 02:50:06 PM
All I know is we broke records on how cold this winter was so please tell me what the scientist suggest was the reasoning?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 02:53:13 PM
All I know is we broke records on how cold this winter was so please tell me what the scientist suggest was the reasoning?
I understand that is all you know.  Congratulations.

Which scientist said cold records can't happen exactly?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 03:02:06 PM
But I thought the world is getting warmer? So Neal are you doing your part as far as correcting the problem?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 03:14:47 PM
But I thought the world is getting warmer? So Neal are you doing your part as far as correcting the problem?
How did you think that?  You just said all you know is that your house had record cold.

Not much of anything.  Is there something I should do or said should be done?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 03:18:44 PM
That's entirely up to you Neal, you apparently have the facts the rest of us according to are just ignorant.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 03:20:48 PM
That's entirely up to you Neal, you apparently have the facts the rest of us according to are just ignorant.
Indeed it is.

Not to worry, many people are.  They would rather sick their heads in the sand and believe some nonsense than do a little research themselves.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 12, 2014, 03:32:52 PM
You researched global warming? Do tell....
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 03:37:52 PM
You researched global warming? Do tell....
It's in here:

http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=5170.0 (http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=5170.0)

Have a read.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 12, 2014, 03:54:59 PM
"DO NOT FEED THE TROLL"

He'll never go away if we all keep feedin' him guys!

We can all see 'ol Nealie for what he is, but he's convinced himself that he's something entirely different.

Just leave him be and maybe he'll take to trolling elsewhere.
You have no idea what I am, and I sure as hell am not a troll.  I have not started any threads about anything other than legitimate OWF topics.

The issue here is I'm not ignorant, and have the ability to admit our planet has warmed over the past two hundred years at a very significant rate.   That doesn't make me a liberal, a troll, an animal rights nut, or any such label that has been bandied about here.  It makes me a realist.  If you, or anyone else here can't handle evidence and factual data to back up a correct position I pity you.

Neal

http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76469&page=3 (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76469&page=3)

How about the NaturallyAspirated Neal on this site. Is this you?

 Ya, you are a troll. By anyone's definition.

Recreational snowmobiling causes Global Warmin', right? 
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 04:12:35 PM
Why don't you read this Neal I don't need to plead my case to you anymore, believing your one theory based on 200 years is your version of sticking your head in the sand, and yes we all believe you are a liberal! Make sure you read it
 Global warming has finally been explained: the Earth is getting hotter because the Sun is burning more brightly than at any time during the past 1,000 years, according to new research.

A study by Swiss and German scientists suggests that increasing radiation from the sun is responsible for recent global climate changes.

Dr Sami Solanki, the director of the renowned Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Gottingen, Germany, who led the research, said: "The Sun has been at its strongest over the past 60 years and may now be affecting global temperatures.

"The Sun is in a changed state. It is brighter than it was a few hundred years ago and this brightening started relatively recently - in the last 100 to 150 years."

Dr Solanki said that the brighter Sun and higher levels of "greenhouse gases", such as carbon dioxide, both contributed to the change in the Earth's temperature but it was impossible to say which had the greater impact.

Average global temperatures have increased by about 0.2 deg Celsius over the past 20 years and are widely believed to be responsible for new extremes in weather patterns. After pressure from environmentalists, politicians agreed the Kyoto Protocol in 1997, promising to limit greenhouse gas emissions between 2008 and 2012. Britain ratified the protocol in 2002 and said it would cut emissions by 12.5 per cent from 1990 levels.

Globally, 1997, 1998 and 2002 were the hottest years since worldwide weather records were first collated in 1860.

Most scientists agree that greenhouse gases from fossil fuels have contributed to the warming of the planet in the past few decades but have questioned whether a brighter Sun is also responsible for rising temperatures.

To determine the Sun's role in global warming, Dr Solanki's research team measured magnetic zones on the Sun's surface known as sunspots, which are believed to intensify the Sun's energy output.

The team studied sunspot data going back several hundred years. They found that a dearth of sunspots signalled a cold period - which could last up to 50 years -but that over the past century their numbers had increased as the Earth's climate grew steadily warmer. The scientists also compared data from ice samples collected during an expedition to Greenland in 1991. The most recent samples contained the lowest recorded levels of beryllium 10 for more than 1,000 years. Beryllium 10 is a particle created by cosmic rays that decreases in the Earth's atmosphere as the magnetic energy from the Sun increases. Scientists can currently trace beryllium 10 levels back 1,150 years.

Dr Solanki does not know what is causing the Sun to burn brighter now or how long this cycle would last.

He says that the increased solar brightness over the past 20 years has not been enough to cause the observed climate changes but believes that the impact of more intense sunshine on the ozone layer and on cloud cover could be affecting the climate more than the sunlight itself.

Dr Bill Burrows, a climatologist and a member of the Royal Meteorological Society, welcomed Dr Solanki's research. "While the established view remains that the sun cannot be responsible for all the climate changes we have seen in the past 50 years or so, this study is certainly significant," he said.

"It shows that there is enough happening on the solar front to merit further research. Perhaps we are devoting too many resources to correcting human effects on the climate without being sure that we are the major contributor."

Dr David Viner, the senior research scientist at the University of East Anglia's climatic research unit, said the research showed that the sun did have an effect on global warming.

He added, however, that the study also showed that over the past 20 years the number of sunspots had remained roughly constant, while the Earth's temperature had continued to increase.

This suggested that over the past 20 years, human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels and deforestation had begun to dominate "the natural factors involved in climate change", he said.

Dr Gareth Jones, a climate researcher at the Met Office, said that Dr Solanki's findings were inconclusive because the study had not incorporated other potential climate change factors.

"The Sun's radiance may well have an impact on climate change but it needs to be looked at in conjunction with other factors such as greenhouse gases, sulphate aerosols and volcano activity," he said. The research adds weight to the views of David Bellamy, the conservationist. "Global warming - at least the modern nightmare version - is a myth," he said. "I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy-makers are not.

"Instead, they have an unshakeable faith in what has, unfortunately, become one of the central credos of the environmental movement: humans burn fossil fuels, which release increased levels of carbon dioxide - the principal so-called greenhouse gas - into the atmosphere, causing the atmosphere to heat up. They say this is global warming: I say this is poppycock."
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 12, 2014, 04:15:59 PM
"DO NOT FEED THE TROLL"

He'll never go away if we all keep feedin' him guys!

We can all see 'ol Nealie for what he is, but he's convinced himself that he's something entirely different.

Just leave him be and maybe he'll take to trolling elsewhere.
You have no idea what I am, and I sure as hell am not a troll.  I have not started any threads about anything other than legitimate OWF topics.

The issue here is I'm not ignorant, and have the ability to admit our planet has warmed over the past two hundred years at a very significant rate.   That doesn't make me a liberal, a troll, an animal rights nut, or any such label that has been bandied about here.  It makes me a realist.  If you, or anyone else here can't handle evidence and factual data to back up a correct position I pity you.

Neal

http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76469&page=3 (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76469&page=3)

How about the NaturallyAspirated Neal on this site. Is this you?

 Ya, you are a troll. By anyone's definition.

Recreational snowmobiling causes Global Warmin', right?

LOL....  Marty, I need to call u, just not had time

Recreational snowmobiling causing global warming, that says enough lol. Geez Louise
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 04:20:52 PM
Scott busted you Neal! What a troll!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 04:21:21 PM
"DO NOT FEED THE TROLL"

He'll never go away if we all keep feedin' him guys!

We can all see 'ol Nealie for what he is, but he's convinced himself that he's something entirely different.

Just leave him be and maybe he'll take to trolling elsewhere.
You have no idea what I am, and I sure as hell am not a troll.  I have not started any threads about anything other than legitimate OWF topics.

The issue here is I'm not ignorant, and have the ability to admit our planet has warmed over the past two hundred years at a very significant rate.   That doesn't make me a liberal, a troll, an animal rights nut, or any such label that has been bandied about here.  It makes me a realist.  If you, or anyone else here can't handle evidence and factual data to back up a correct position I pity you.

Neal

http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76469&page=3 (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76469&page=3)

How about the NaturallyAspirated Neal on this site. Is this you?

 Ya, you are a troll. By anyone's definition.

Recreational snowmobiling causes Global Warmin', right?
Indeed it is.

Bullcrap if I am, you obviously don't understand the meaning of the word.  If I was a troll I wouldn't start two massive threads about by proposed building ideas, which include an OWF as an integral component. 
http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72951#entry2710831 (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72951#entry2710831)

If I was a troll, I wouldn't consistently promote the same positions, and data sources I do on that site, as I do here.

Here, have a read, most of the qualifications apply to those attacking me, not the other way round...
http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/weirdwebculture/f/what-is-an-internet-troll.htm (http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/weirdwebculture/f/what-is-an-internet-troll.htm)

Indeed it does, pretty much everything we do does.

Neal

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 04:22:56 PM
Scott busted you Neal! What a troll!
No.

You simply don't understand what the definition of a troll is and are jumping on the bandwagon without any forethought.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 04:24:01 PM
We need a troll icon!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 04:25:44 PM
Why don't you read this Neal I don't need to plead my case to you anymore, believing your one theory based on 200 years is your version of sticking your head in the sand, and yes we all believe you are a liberal! Make sure you read it
 Global warming has finally been explained: the Earth is getting hotter because the Sun is burning more brightly than at any time during the past 1,000 years, according to new research.

A study by Swiss and German scientists suggests that increasing radiation from the sun is responsible for recent global climate changes.

Dr Sami Solanki, the director of the renowned Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research in Gottingen, Germany, who led the research, said: "The Sun has been at its strongest over the past 60 years and may now be affecting global temperatures.

"The Sun is in a changed state. It is brighter than it was a few hundred years ago and this brightening started relatively recently - in the last 100 to 150 years."

Dr Solanki said that the brighter Sun and higher levels of "greenhouse gases", such as carbon dioxide, both contributed to the change in the Earth's temperature but it was impossible to say which had the greater impact.

Average global temperatures have increased by about 0.2 deg Celsius over the past 20 years and are widely believed to be responsible for new extremes in weather patterns. After pressure from environmentalists, politicians agreed the Kyoto Protocol in 1997, promising to limit greenhouse gas emissions between 2008 and 2012. Britain ratified the protocol in 2002 and said it would cut emissions by 12.5 per cent from 1990 levels.

Globally, 1997, 1998 and 2002 were the hottest years since worldwide weather records were first collated in 1860.

Most scientists agree that greenhouse gases from fossil fuels have contributed to the warming of the planet in the past few decades but have questioned whether a brighter Sun is also responsible for rising temperatures.

To determine the Sun's role in global warming, Dr Solanki's research team measured magnetic zones on the Sun's surface known as sunspots, which are believed to intensify the Sun's energy output.

The team studied sunspot data going back several hundred years. They found that a dearth of sunspots signalled a cold period - which could last up to 50 years -but that over the past century their numbers had increased as the Earth's climate grew steadily warmer. The scientists also compared data from ice samples collected during an expedition to Greenland in 1991. The most recent samples contained the lowest recorded levels of beryllium 10 for more than 1,000 years. Beryllium 10 is a particle created by cosmic rays that decreases in the Earth's atmosphere as the magnetic energy from the Sun increases. Scientists can currently trace beryllium 10 levels back 1,150 years.

Dr Solanki does not know what is causing the Sun to burn brighter now or how long this cycle would last.

He says that the increased solar brightness over the past 20 years has not been enough to cause the observed climate changes but believes that the impact of more intense sunshine on the ozone layer and on cloud cover could be affecting the climate more than the sunlight itself.

Dr Bill Burrows, a climatologist and a member of the Royal Meteorological Society, welcomed Dr Solanki's research. "While the established view remains that the sun cannot be responsible for all the climate changes we have seen in the past 50 years or so, this study is certainly significant," he said.

"It shows that there is enough happening on the solar front to merit further research. Perhaps we are devoting too many resources to correcting human effects on the climate without being sure that we are the major contributor."

Dr David Viner, the senior research scientist at the University of East Anglia's climatic research unit, said the research showed that the sun did have an effect on global warming.

He added, however, that the study also showed that over the past 20 years the number of sunspots had remained roughly constant, while the Earth's temperature had continued to increase.

This suggested that over the past 20 years, human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels and deforestation had begun to dominate "the natural factors involved in climate change", he said.

Dr Gareth Jones, a climate researcher at the Met Office, said that Dr Solanki's findings were inconclusive because the study had not incorporated other potential climate change factors.

"The Sun's radiance may well have an impact on climate change but it needs to be looked at in conjunction with other factors such as greenhouse gases, sulphate aerosols and volcano activity," he said. The research adds weight to the views of David Bellamy, the conservationist. "Global warming - at least the modern nightmare version - is a myth," he said. "I am sure of it and so are a growing number of scientists. But what is really worrying is that the world's politicians and policy-makers are not.

"Instead, they have an unshakeable faith in what has, unfortunately, become one of the central credos of the environmental movement: humans burn fossil fuels, which release increased levels of carbon dioxide - the principal so-called greenhouse gas - into the atmosphere, causing the atmosphere to heat up. They say this is global warming: I say this is poppycock."
That seems to be in stark contrast to what GISS and Krivova et al data shows:

(http://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics/Solar_vs_temp_500.jpg)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 12, 2014, 04:26:14 PM
But I thought the world is getting warmer? So Neal are you doing your part as far as correcting the problem?
How did you think that?  You just said all you know is that your house had record cold.

Not much of anything.  Is there something I should do or said should be done?

Neal

The wife has family in England, the summer of 2012 when we were breaking records for heat which was blamed on GLOBAL WARMING, not climate change, England barely had a summer. Yet not one mention of England's much cooler than average summer by the lame stream media.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 04:27:59 PM
Ya I jumped on the bandwagon....... Your the one clinging to the human caused global warming bandwagon!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 04:29:56 PM
You do know this is the outdoor wood furnace forum and not the green forum right? :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 06:20:22 PM
You do know this is the outdoor wood furnace forum and not the green forum right? :thumbup:
I do, why would I join a "green" forum?  Is that where people who understand the logic of using factual data gather?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 12, 2014, 06:52:16 PM
You didn't read that post about the sun causing temp increase did you?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 12, 2014, 07:05:48 PM
You didn't read that post about the sun causing temp increase did you?
Sure did.  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/bc.gif)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 12, 2014, 08:24:59 PM
Neal, yes I spelled it right, until you have walked a mile in the shoes of those of us that work our balls off to support this mighty nation founded on individual liberty and have it stolen from you by socialists then please don't steal my money to support your agenda, in other words if you think it's right then by all means please support what you believe in, do not steal my money to support it as I don't support it.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 12, 2014, 08:27:31 PM
You do know this is the outdoor wood furnace forum and not the green forum right? :thumbup:
I do, why would I join a "green" forum?  Is that where people who understand the logic of using factual data gather?

Neal

If you pay someone enough... they will say there is global warming in your ass too. Doesnt make it true. You have to look if anyone (scientist included) have anything to gain from it. Where there is money you will have ppl trying to make money, simple as that. Hard to know 100% how much of it is true and how much is bs $$$
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: gainerspot on April 19, 2014, 04:18:54 AM
To think I got on here to learn some stuff about OWB this morning and got a ferry tale from Neal the troll.
It kinda like when green peace come out on a boat to the RIG I work on in the gulf of mexico.  All of them are to ignorant to know what got them there, the fuel we drilled for.   :bash: :bash: :bash:
That was a good day, they found out that our fire water system was better than the one they had.  Yes they started it, we ended it.
 
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 19, 2014, 05:03:32 AM
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/1006098_797113936976286_6885179736063800768_n.jpg)

Denial isn't something that's new fellas...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Steinacher Sales on April 19, 2014, 01:23:54 PM
Wow, my head is spinning. Who started this? LOL

Greg Steinacher

618-401-0726   :o
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 19, 2014, 01:38:16 PM
Greg have you been hitting off the same stuff that Neal has been smoking?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Steinacher Sales on April 19, 2014, 01:43:39 PM
I was wandering what happened to me. That explains it!  LOL

Greg
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 19, 2014, 08:59:35 PM
If trolls aren't real, then explain......

Neal!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 20, 2014, 07:07:39 AM
If trolls aren't real, then explain......

Neal!!!!!!!!
(http://talesofgrim.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/personal_trollface_hd.png)

Seriously though, have any links to some threads I have started to troll?  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 05:57:35 PM
H Neal.

Curious.... if you received a Monica Lewinsky "hummer" in the White House, would you deny that it is indeed sex?  ??? :P :-*
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 06:09:54 PM
H Neal.

Curious.... if you received a Monica Lewinsky "hummer" in the White House, would you deny that it is indeed sex?  ??? :P :-*
If I was Bill Clinton I would have classified that as not anyone's g'damn business.   :thumbup:

Anyone stupid enough to think that the whole Lewinsky debacle was something other than a pointless witchhunt and waste of taxpayer dollars has my pity.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 21, 2014, 06:50:51 PM

[/quote]
If I was Bill Clinton I would have classified that as not anyone's g'damn business.   :thumbup:

Anyone stupid enough to think that the whole Lewinsky debacle was something other than a pointless witchhunt and waste of taxpayer dollars has my pity.

Neal
[/quote]
Pointless witch hunt?

Hmmmmmm........ The once upon a time leader of these United States(don't worry Slim,those two words will go right over his head), the one who held the title of Commander in Chief, the one and only that every child in our nation held to the highest of moral and ethical standards, lies to not only to the entire country that he is elected to represent, but also the rest of the world, and that is no ones business?

Once again, Hmmmmmmm.........

Your true troll colors become even more apparent every time you two finger a post.

By the way, you didn't answer the question Sloppy_Snood asked of you. :o
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 07:21:03 PM
H Neal.

Curious.... if you received a Monica Lewinsky "hummer" in the White House, would you deny that it is indeed sex?  ??? :P :-*
If I was Bill Clinton I would have classified that as not anyone's g'damn business.   :thumbup:

Anyone stupid enough to think that the whole Lewinsky debacle was something other than a pointless witchhunt and waste of taxpayer dollars has my pity. Neal

Hi Neal.  While I respectfully understand your response, that answer is a response to a question not asked.

Care to answer the question posed?

Late Addition:  Sorry Marty... I made my post before reading yours.  My apologies sir.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 07:23:11 PM
Bahahahaha this is one of my favorite posts ;D
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 07:46:44 PM
Pointless witch hunt?

Hmmmmmm........ The once upon a time leader of these United States(don't worry Slim,those two words will go right over his head), the one who held the title of Commander in Chief, the one and only that every child in our nation held to the highest of moral and ethical standards, lies to not only to the entire country that he is elected to represent, but also the rest of the world, and that is no ones business?

Once again, Hmmmmmmm.........

Your true troll colors become even more apparent every time you two finger a post.

By the way, you didn't answer the question Sloppy_Snood asked of you. :o
You are only fooling yourself if you think any politician desires or achieves moral and ethical standards above the general population.  That's called naiveté. 

Damn right who the President has consensual sex with, how many times, oral, vaginal, or anal certainly isn't anyone's business but the parties involved.

It is very apparent you don't know the first thing about internet trolling, you are trying to sound hip or in the know about internet forum lingo and it is making you look silly.

I certainly did, you just don't want to hear the answer.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 07:48:23 PM
H Neal.

Curious.... if you received a Monica Lewinsky "hummer" in the White House, would you deny that it is indeed sex?  ??? :P :-*
If I was Bill Clinton I would have classified that as not anyone's g'damn business.   :thumbup:

Anyone stupid enough to think that the whole Lewinsky debacle was something other than a pointless witchhunt and waste of taxpayer dollars has my pity. Neal

Hi Neal.  While I respectfully understand your response, that answer is a response to a question not asked.

Care to answer the question posed?

Late Addition:  Sorry Marty... I made my post before reading yours.  My apologies sir.  :thumbup:
If it were me instead of Bill Clinton I would answer the same, it's not your damn business. 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 07:57:00 PM
Bahahahaha this is one of my favorite posts ;D
(http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/561150/resized_jesus-says-meme-generator-this-thread-just-got-awesome-6ed6e3.jpg)

But is has gone a bit off topic...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 07:59:47 PM
You'll have that from time to time!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:01:32 PM
You'll have that from time to time!
That's what makes a forum great.   :thumbup:

That and hopefully the admin putting in a little stiffer CAPTCHA to eliminate the spammers!

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:02:52 PM
(http://)
Hi Neal.  While I respectfully understand your response, that answer is a response to a question not asked.

Care to answer the question posed?

Late Addition:  Sorry Marty... I made my post before reading yours.  My apologies sir.  :thumbup:
If it were me instead of Bill Clinton I would answer the same, it's not your damn business. 

Neal

Thank you for making my point Neal.  :thumbup:

That's pretty much what I expected and plays right into your global warming belief system (sans acknowledgement or believing in a global cooling theory).  Oh wells....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o)

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:08:41 PM
(http://)
Hi Neal.  While I respectfully understand your response, that answer is a response to a question not asked.

Care to answer the question posed?

Late Addition:  Sorry Marty... I made my post before reading yours.  My apologies sir.  :thumbup:
If it were me instead of Bill Clinton I would answer the same, it's not your damn business. 

Neal

Thank you for making my point Neal.  :thumbup:

That's pretty much what I expected and plays right into your global warming belief system (sans acknowledgement or believing in a global cooling theory).  Oh wells....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o)
The point you are trying to pigeonhole me into is indeed pointless.  You understand that right? 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:09:45 PM
The point you are trying to pigeonhole me into is indeed pointless.  You understand that right? 

Neal

The point that you cannot answer a simple question,,, yes.  I agree.  :thumbup:

(hint: you may note I have not made direct reference to Bill Clinton, nor will I.  ;) )

I have lots of friends like that... some of them are even employed by MSNBC (unfortunately, that's a true statement about them).
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:10:00 PM
Global cooling theory?  What kinda weed are you smoking....  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:11:56 PM
The point you are trying to pigeonhole me into is indeed pointless.  You understand that right? 

Neal

The point that you cannot answer a simple question,,, yes.  I agree.  :thumbup:
With my answer, your question (the answer you wish to predetermine) is rendered moot.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 08:14:30 PM
Still laughing!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:14:41 PM
Global cooling theory?  What kinda weed are you smoking....  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)  Neal

You can't have one without the other. 

Never touched illicit drugs (admittedly have used aspirin, ibuprofen, and overindulgence of ethanol back in my youth)... doubt I will either.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:17:41 PM
The point that you cannot answer a simple question,,, yes.  I agree.  :thumbup:
With my answer, your question (the answer you wish to predetermine) is rendered moot.

Neal

I do not predetermine your answer... you are the one typing it, not I. 

Perhaps the weed is burning in your OWB  :-\ and.... nevermind... forgot, you don't own an OWB yet.  Cheers!  :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:19:04 PM
Global cooling theory?  What kinda weed are you smoking....  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)  Neal

You can't have one without the other. 

Never touched illicit drugs (admittedly have used aspirin, ibuprofen, and overindulgence of ethanol back in my youth)... doubt I will either.
And folks say I troll. 

Wasn't wood ethanol was it??   ;D

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 08:20:50 PM
Neal here is an example of the cycles that occur on earth, I know you believe that we are the cause of global warming but I believe it is all up to the sun.

 as a period of unusually warm weather in Europe and the North Atlantic that ran from approximately 250 BC to 400 AD. [1][dead link] Cooling at the end of this period in south west Florida may have been due to a reduction in solar radiation reaching the Earth, which may have triggered a change in atmospheric circulation patterns. [2]

Theophrastus (371 – c. 287 BC) wrote that date trees could grow in Greece if planted, but could not set fruit there. This is the same situation as today, and suggests that southern Aegean mean summer temperatures in the fourth and fifth centuries BC were within a degree of modern temperatures. This and other literary fragments from the time confirm that the Greek climate during that period was basically the same as it was around 2000 AD. Dendrochronological evidence from wood found at the Parthenon shows variability of climate in the fifth century BC resembling the modern pattern of variation. [3]

Tree rings from Italy in the late third century BC indicate a period of mild conditions in the area at the time that Hannibal crossed the Alps with elephants. [4]

The phrase "Roman Warm Period" appears in a 1995 doctoral thesis. [5] It was popularized by an article published in Nature in 1999.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:21:34 PM
You can't have one without the other. 

Never touched illicit drugs (admittedly have used aspirin, ibuprofen, and overindulgence of ethanol back in my youth)... doubt I will either.
And folks say I troll. 

Wasn't wood ethanol was it??   ;D Neal

No wood alcohol... which is methanol btw.... not ethanol. ;)  (<-- This represents my contribution to answering the question asked; something you choose not to do when the answer does not favor your position)

Out of context Dr. Google. ;)

Global warming theory to global cooling theory is the reference.  :thumbup: (maybe that is why you believe that nonsense?.... dunno).
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:23:04 PM
The point that you cannot answer a simple question,,, yes.  I agree.  :thumbup:
With my answer, your question (the answer you wish to predetermine) is rendered moot.

Neal

I do not predetermine your answer... you are the one typing it, not I. 

Perhaps the weed is burning in your OWB  :-\ and.... nevermind... forgot, you don't own an OWB yet.  Cheers!  :thumbup:
Sure you do, you have already shown you did.

I am well aware I don't own one.  I came to this forum looking for ideas and suggestions about a proposed system that I wish to build that has one.  You know, researching the topic, something a scientific mind should know about.....  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/c-n.gif)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:25:55 PM
.
Looking for "facts" on an OWB forum?  Wow!  This explains much.

Aside from personal experiences and field experiences from our resident dealers, not sure what "facts" can be gleaned from anyone but the engineers and craftsmen that designed, manufactured, and assembled the OWB products.....

...but good experiential information, installation practices, opinions, best practices, opinions on system designs, etc.,,,yes.  Agreed.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:29:29 PM
Neal here is an example of the cycles that occur on earth, I know you believe that we are the cause of global warming but I believe it is all up to the sun.

 as a period of unusually warm weather in Europe and the North Atlantic that ran from approximately 250 BC to 400 AD. [1][dead link] Cooling at the end of this period in south west Florida may have been due to a reduction in solar radiation reaching the Earth, which may have triggered a change in atmospheric circulation patterns. [2]

Theophrastus (371 – c. 287 BC) wrote that date trees could grow in Greece if planted, but could not set fruit there. This is the same situation as today, and suggests that southern Aegean mean summer temperatures in the fourth and fifth centuries BC were within a degree of modern temperatures. This and other literary fragments from the time confirm that the Greek climate during that period was basically the same as it was around 2000 AD. Dendrochronological evidence from wood found at the Parthenon shows variability of climate in the fifth century BC resembling the modern pattern of variation. [3]

Tree rings from Italy in the late third century BC indicate a period of mild conditions in the area at the time that Hannibal crossed the Alps with elephants. [4]

The phrase "Roman Warm Period" appears in a 1995 doctoral thesis. [5] It was popularized by an article published in Nature in 1999.
I do?  I believe I said that we impact the climate, not that we are responsible for all the warming...

Meanwhile back in present times.....
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Solar-cycle-data.png)

(http://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics/Solar_vs_temp_500.jpg)

It is quite clear the warming isn't all the sun.  That seems to be fairly clear.  Over the past 50-60 years we have seen a very significant divergence between the solar output (declining) and global temperature (increasing).

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:33:18 PM
Wow!   :o

The best part about the 30-year graph you like to post is the colors.  Very vibrant.  Unfortunately, they don't tell me much about the planet nor its normal average global temperature fluctuation over the planet's life span.  .... and politicians craft legislation over this pseudo-science! Awesome misuse of taxpayers dollars to support the globalists' socialistic agenda.  :thumbup:

Anyone know what percentage of the global warming claim has been attributed to the bovine flatulence funding out Democratic U.S. Congress authorized?  ::)  More fantastic pork barrel spending in the name of "research."  LOL!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 08:35:26 PM
So the Romans must have all had cars and factories and burned fossil fuels to make it so warm they couldn't sustain life :o
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:35:40 PM
.
Looking for "facts" on an OWB forum?  Wow!  This explains much.

Aside from personal experiences and field experiences from our resident dealers, not sure what "facts" can be gleaned from anyone but the engineers and craftsmen that assembled the products.....

...but good experiential information, yes.  :thumbup:
The guys here are pretty good, but I dunno if everything is fact.....    Thus why I stated ideas and suggestions...  Perhaps a little less condescending retort and a  little more comprehension would help you.    :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:38:05 PM
You can't have one without the other. 

Never touched illicit drugs (admittedly have used aspirin, ibuprofen, and overindulgence of ethanol back in my youth)... doubt I will either.
And folks say I troll. 

Wasn't wood ethanol was it??   ;D Neal

No wood alcohol... which is methanol btw.... not ethanol. ;)  (<-- This represents my contribution to answering the question asked; something you choose not to do when the answer does not favor your position)

Out of context Dr. Google. ;)

Global warming theory to global cooling theory is the reference.  :thumbup: (maybe that is why you believe that nonsense?.... dunno).
Actually I was insinuating more along the lines of cellulosic ethanol (which isn't methanol), which is made from wood products.  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/bc.gif)

You are not making any sense.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:38:44 PM
So the Romans must have all had cars and factories and burned fossil fuels to make it so warm they couldn't sustain life :o
What?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:41:30 PM
Wow!   :o

The best part about the 30-year graph you like to post is the colors.  Vey vibrant.  Unfortunately, they don't tell me much about the planet nor its normal average global temperature fluctuation over the planet's life span.  .... and politicians craft legislation over this pseudo-science! Awesome misuse of taxpayers dollars to support the globalists' socialistic agenda.  :thumbup:

Anyone know what percentage of the global warming claim has been attributed to the bovine flatulence funding out Democratic U.S. Congress authorized?  ::)  More fantastic pork barrel spending in the name of "research."  LOL!
(http://elbrooklyntaco.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/wtf-meme.jpg)

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that bloviation.... 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 08:44:17 PM
You said we are impacting the planet to raise temps, so what would you say caused it for the 150 years of the Roman period, vehicles factories and the burning of fossil fuels. I just don't know what else could possibly cause it?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:46:54 PM
Actually I was insinuating more along the lines of cellulosic ethanol (which isn't methanol), which is made from wood products.  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/bc.gif)

....ah.... now I understand that reference.  I was thinking more along the lines of moonshine production in the Midwest (where un-experienced moonshiners generally injure people by not monitoring their distillations closely enough and do not remove ALL of the methanol from the fermented in-process broth).

You are not making any sense.  Neal

Not really but I acknowledge that you are not following (my previous global warming posts in the other thread pretty much explain my viewpoint so I will not bore others with reiteration).
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:49:48 PM
You said we are impacting the planet to raise temps, so what would you say caused it for the 150 years of the Roman period, vehicles factories and the burning of fossil fuels. I just don't know what else could possibly cause it?
Well I am gonna go with natural phenomena as a solid guess.  However now, unlike then, we have much more sophisticated data collection abilities as well as better climate understandings.

Do you contend that only either natural, or anthropogenic processes can happen at a time? 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:52:20 PM
Actually I was insinuating more along the lines of cellulosic ethanol (which isn't methanol), which is made from wood products.  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/bc.gif)

....ah.... now I understand that reference.  I was thinking more along the lines of moonshine production in the Midwest (where un-experienced moonshiners generally injure people by not monitoring their distillations closely enough and do not remove ALL of the methanol from the fermented in-process broth).

You are not making any sense.  Neal

Not really but I acknowledge that you are not following (my previous global warming posts in the other thread pretty much explain my viewpoint so I will not bore others with reiteration).
No problem.   :thumbup:

Ok, and I am not following, because as previously stated, you are not making sense.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 21, 2014, 08:52:44 PM
Well I am gonna go with natural phenomena as a solid guess.  However now, unlike then, we have much more sophisticated data collection abilities as well as better climate understandings.

Well if that ain't some good data to support Bovine Flatulence Global Warming theory, I don't know what is!  ::)

Gotta hit the hay guys!... it's been fun.  8) -Slopster
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 08:54:46 PM
Well I am gonna go with natural phenomena as a solid guess.  However now, unlike then, we have much more sophisticated data collection abilities as well as better climate understandings.

Well if that ain't some good data to support Bovine Flatulence Global Warming theory, I don't know what is!  ::)
Again, this post is senseless.

You seem to indicate that we don't really have a more sophisticated understanding of our climate now than we did in the times of the Roman empire.  Surely you don't believe that...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 08:56:27 PM
No Neal what I'm saying is there is no concrete evidence that humans burning fossil fuels is the reason for climate change that's all.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 21, 2014, 09:01:38 PM
No Neal what I'm saying is there is no concrete evidence that humans burning fossil fuels is the reason for climate change that's all.
Ok, so they why not argue that, instead of arguing some pointless crap about cars in the Roman empire?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 09:04:58 PM
Well I was in a round about way didn't think it was that hard to figure out the Romans had a pretty big warm period without fossil fuel usage.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 21, 2014, 09:56:26 PM
Just remember Neal this debate is all in fun no hard feelings!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 22, 2014, 08:02:20 AM
Well if that ain't some good data to support Bovine Flatulence Global Warming theory, I don't know what is!  ::)
Again, this post is senseless.

You seem to indicate that we don't really have a more sophisticated understanding of our climate now than we did in the times of the Roman empire.  Surely you don't believe that... Neal

Senseless?... uh,, no.  A little silly? ... perhaps.  But perhaps you are not making the connection.

The reference is this:  the U.S. Federal government has spent an excessive amount of U.S. taxpayer cash on the study of the environmental impact of methane directly sourced from bovine flatulence on the planet and its impact on the pseudo-claim of global warming.  Pardon my language but the studies and the bovine anus has 1 thing in common: they are both full of *&$t (no study needed for determination).

Sophistication understanding?  No.  Scientific understanding?  Yes.  But as much with my beloved science, much cannot be detected through scientific methodology (e.g. slice a human cadaver into as many thin slies as a meat slicer can and I doubt you will ever "find" the human soul).

As a scientist (chemist actually), my lack of belief in any of the so-called data you are presenting on global warming is based on estimates (fancy name for educated guessing) is that you want to extrapolate 20, 50, 100, whatever years of data (post-discovery of precise and accurate temperature-measuring devices) as an isolated phenomenon (problem; issue; man is killing the earth; yada, yada, yada) when the millions of years old mother Earth lifecycle is 1,000,000s+ percent longer than the data study or a human's lifecycle to measure it.  In reality, it means little to nothing.  The earth is doing just fine without spending money to "save it" from the global warming non-issue. ;)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 09:46:06 AM
Well if that ain't some good data to support Bovine Flatulence Global Warming theory, I don't know what is!  ::)
Again, this post is senseless.

You seem to indicate that we don't really have a more sophisticated understanding of our climate now than we did in the times of the Roman empire.  Surely you don't believe that... Neal

Senseless?... uh,, no.  A little silly? ... perhaps.  But perhaps you are not making the connection.

The reference is this:  the U.S. Federal government has spent an excessive amount of U.S. taxpayer cash on the study of the environmental impact of methane directly sourced from bovine flatulence on the planet and its impact on the pseudo-claim of global warming.  Pardon my language but the studies and the bovine anus has 1 thing in common: they are both full of *&$t (no study needed for determination).

Sophistication understanding?  No.  Scientific understanding?  Yes.  But as much with my beloved science, much cannot be detected through scientific methodology (e.g. slice a human cadaver into as many thin slies as a meat slicer can and I doubt you will ever "find" the human soul).

As a scientist (chemist actually), my lack of belief in any of the so-called data you are presenting on global warming is based on estimates (fancy name for educated guessing) is that you want to extrapolate 20, 50, 100, whatever years of data (post-discovery of precise and accurate temperature-measuring devices) as an isolated phenomenon (problem; issue; man is killing the earth; yada, yada, yada) when the millions of years old mother Earth lifecycle is 1,000,000s+ percent longer than the data study or a human's lifecycle to measure it.  In reality, it means little to nothing.  The earth is doing just fine without spending money to "save it" from the global warming non-issue. ;)
Your post is complete and udder crap.

1.  It makes perfect scientific sense to study all causes of the warming, cow farts included.  Humans have domesticated massive amounts of cows.  Methane is a known GHG, and the amount that the domestication of livestock impacts our climate is certainly a legitimate study topic.  You are being highly ignorant on this issue.

2.  Yes, sophisticated understanding, that comes from continued scientific discoveries, made by studying (cow farts included).  Again, you are showing a large amount of ignorance if you think our understanding of the climate is not more sophisticated than in Roman times.  Get a freeking clue dude.

3. You are 100% incorrect in your statement that the data gathered over the last 100 years (and the past 30+ for high resolution) is estimates.  That is absolutely wrong.  It is directly measured data.

4.  Your blathering about earth and it's age, and man somehow destroying shows how out to lunch you are.  Climate change is not about man destroying the earth, that isn't going to happen.  It is about how much man's impact is absorbed by the planet and how the natural cycles and processes of the planet deal with man's influence.

Neal 
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 09:47:59 AM
Just remember Neal this debate is all in fun no hard feelings!
No problem.  :thumbup:

There is far more money in denying man's influence than admitting it.  Government grants are a drop in the bucket compared to the cost that energy companies are forcing themselves to cover up by denying.  Just look at leaded gasoline as an example.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 22, 2014, 10:17:50 AM
I'm going to agree with Sloppy on the topic of wasted money on cow fart studies, cows are not being domesticated because they make great pets, its simple supply and demand people want steaks, Hamburgers, milk and cheese!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 10:46:59 AM
I'm going to agree with Sloppy on the topic of wasted money on cow fart studies, cows are not being domesticated because they make great pets, its simple supply and demand people want steaks, Hamburgers, milk and cheese!
Well of course we domesticate them for those things, that doesn't mean we should ignore the issues that domestication creates.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 22, 2014, 11:05:25 AM
Well of course we domesticate them for those things, that doesn't mean we should ignore the issues that domestication creates.  Neal

Does this mean you support federally taxpayer-funded Cow Flatulence Global Warming studies for data collection?  :-\
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 11:20:52 AM
Neal, if we are so concerned about methane then please explain why it is that EVERY landfill that I drive by has risers sticking out of them with no way to capture the methane escaping from them, OH wait a minute I think I'm beginning to understand, it's OK as long as govt does it just plug up your dairy or beef cows ass and let the govt steal your own money to cripple yet another needed industry
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Ched Bull on April 22, 2014, 11:25:33 AM
Boy, all this fussing over Cow farts NEAL, if it were not  for man the buffalo and cows and elk and every other damned animal would be over populated and there for farting up a storm and making more methane than the Ocean. Speaking of the Ocean it is a wounder the so called Scientist don`t want to drain it some how to try to get rid of that methane. DO YOU GET MY DRIFT SOME PEOPLE CALL IT COMMON SENSE! 
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 11:31:54 AM
Well of course we domesticate them for those things, that doesn't mean we should ignore the issues that domestication creates.  Neal

Does this mean you support federally taxpayer-funded Cow Flatulence Global Warming studies for data collection?  :-\
If it is submitted responsibly yes, indeed.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 11:33:52 AM
Neal, if we are so concerned about methane then please explain why it is that EVERY landfill that I drive by has risers sticking out of them with no way to capture the methane escaping from them, OH wait a minute I think I'm beginning to understand, it's OK as long as govt does it just plug up your dairy or beef cows ass and let the govt steal your own money to cripple yet another needed industry
There have been studies on both landfill methane and cow methane.  Both make sense and are already pretty well covered.

Did any study or government recommendation suggest plugging up a cows ass?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 11:36:31 AM
Boy, all this fussing over Cow farts NEAL, if it were not  for man the buffalo and cows and elk and every other damned animal would be over populated and there for farting up a storm and making more methane than the Ocean. Speaking of the Ocean it is a wounder the so called Scientist don`t want to drain it some how to try to get rid of that methane. DO YOU GET MY DRIFT SOME PEOPLE CALL IT COMMON SENSE!
I'm not the one fussing, that seems to be in your guys's hands. 

You are suggesting people would want to drain the ocean, and yet suggest that other's aren't using common sense? 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 11:41:13 AM
The fuss is about your govt. Stealing our money to promote your theory, if you believe in it let me ask you, have you personally spent one dime of your own money to support it, stop stealing mine!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 12:07:34 PM
The fuss is about your govt. Stealing our money to promote your theory, if you believe in it let me ask you, have you personally spent one dime of your own money to support it, stop stealing mine!
First off, it isn't my theory, many people who know much more about the topic determined the theory.

Secondly, some of my money goes into researching our impact on the climate.  I am fine with that, and in fact promote it. 

Thirdly you are certainly free to move to another country, or try to change the policies you feel unjust via elections.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Ched Bull on April 22, 2014, 12:09:01 PM
AMEN SLIM! ;)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 12:14:42 PM
WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK I'M DOING and yes I could choose to let you and your socialist friends destroy this mighty nation by govt. Takeover, but as a Libertarian I will Die first! Perhaps it is you and the rest of the socialists that should leave the nation that my ancestors fought so bravely to make a liberty minded nation for.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 22, 2014, 12:15:41 PM
Beef, it's what's for dinner!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 12:16:00 PM
17 TRILLION in debt, where would you like to stop KNEEL
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 22, 2014, 12:18:43 PM
Gotta go with Slim on that one!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 22, 2014, 12:31:25 PM
Your post is complete and udder crap.

To you perhaps,,, but so is Bovine Flatulent Global Warming studies to me and others who think this is an utter waste of taxpayer money.

BTW.... I do not know if you actually intended for your post to be such an awesome play on words, I must commend you on using the word "udder" (the baggy mammary gland on a bovine/cow) along with the word "crap" (considering that are basically talking about cow farts).  If not, I think you mean "utter crap."  :thumbup:

1.  It makes perfect scientific sense to study all causes of the warming, cow farts included.  Humans have domesticated massive amounts of cows.  Methane is a known GHG, and the amount that the domestication of livestock impacts our climate is certainly a legitimate study topic.  You are being highly ignorant on this issue.

I hardly believe I am ignorant on this issue but hey, I'll just say "whatever"  ::) on that one. 

Over the lifetime of the earth, there were and have been far more animals on the planet farting away for many centuries and I am certain it will continue.  And increase in domestic livestock levels and their associated flatulent methane output levels have certainly been negated by man's reduction (and elimination in some cases) of certain animal species.  I have to believe that man's impact has caused a significant decrease in the global population levels of elephants and hippos (most of the larger mammals) has proportionately decreased the amount of flatulent methane produced by former herd levels and compensated for by cow flatulent methane levels. 

In short, a wash... but the point is that it is a waste of taxpayer money.... much of which is spent anyway by global warming-supporting politicians protecting their own interests, corporate "green" company kickbacks (do you want to hear the Solydra story again?) and misguided belief systems over that of their core constituencies.  Those politicians ARE NOT SCIENTISTS and simply use the global warming lie to exploit money and political favors from corporations and the other members of the federal government.  Same game that has been going on for decades.... even longer than global warming discussions.  Call me all the words you wish but I tend to like to think my taxpaye dollars, your taxpayer dollars, and everyone else's taxpayer dollars are quite a bit better spent on simple life necessities: food, clothing, shelter, heat (not everyone has these you know and no global warming study is ever going to help those in need of those basic necessities).

2.  Yes, sophisticated understanding, that comes from continued scientific discoveries, made by studying (cow farts included).  Again, you are showing a large amount of ignorance if you think our understanding of the climate is not more sophisticated than in Roman times.  Get a freeking clue dude.

I will take that one as I was too sloppy with my words previously.  :thumbup: Yes... data collection and technology to collect said data are indeed more sophisticated.  Bravo!

The "understanding of the climate" is not more sophisticated... it is simply based on making more connections as to what influences what on the planet and the mechanisms by which that is understood to be occuring.  If that is"sophistication of understanding" to you, so be it.  I view it more as seeing what has always been there but our eyes and minds were not processing what is truly already there.

3. You are 100% incorrect in your statement that the data gathered over the last 100 years (and the past 30+ for high resolution) is estimates.  That is absolutely wrong.  It is directly measured data.

After reading my previous post, I can understand how you interpreted my previous statement.  The "last 130-year data" (post Industrial Revolution time frame to present, generally speaking) has been measured more accurately and yes, in some cases, direct measurements.  My point with all of my "...blathering about earth and its age" is that what we have measured in the last 130 or so years cannot be easily extrapolated back into pre-Industrial Revolution temperature and global climate data!  No one knows how hot the earth actually was when it was forming, solidifying, or what species of fruit Adam and Eve were eating.  You have a VERY small data set for declaring "fact" about global warming since the majority of the data wasn't (and can no longer be) "collected."  Plain and simple.

Obviously you support federal spending on these global warming studies and many of us here at OWBI.com do not.  Support/believe what you wish but again, you have a small pail of facts in search of a problem statement.  I disagree that global warming is indeed the problem statement.  Pretty simple.

4.  Your blathering about earth and it's age, and man somehow destroying shows how out to lunch you are.  Climate change is not about man destroying the earth, that isn't going to happen.  It is about how much man's impact is absorbed by the planet and how the natural cycles and processes of the planet deal with man's influence.  Neal

You support Bovine Flatulent Global warming studies and I am out to lunch!??  :o  Wowser!

According to YOUR belief in the global warming theory(-ies), man is destroying the earth.  It is one of the underlying themes of the whole pseudo-warming issue.  Somehow all of this cow-farting methane and carbon dioxide-producing internal combustion processes are "killing the earth." 

Your pseudo-theory supporters insist that somehow, every property-destroying typhoon, Hurricane Sandy, tornado in the midwest, flood, earthquake tremor, record high temperature recorded, extinction of the Golden Toad, polar ice cap shrinking 3 millimeter fluctuation of a given location's sea level, and on and on and on and on is all do to global warming and climate change.  These events do indeed destroy the earth.  Buildings collapseCrock-O-Chit,,, plain and simple.  The alarmists supporting climate change support it for that very reason (they believe it is slowly killing the planet and all of its inhabitants). 

Destruction and creation are natural phenomena but somehow you global warming guys think that man is not part of the earth's natural evolutionary process?  We humans are animals too,,,, and we have been farting since we existed here.  But I am not going to say my butt methane is creating a global phenomenon.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 12:32:37 PM
WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK I'M DOING and yes I could choose to let you and your socialist friends destroy this mighty nation by govt. Takeover, but as a Libertarian I will Die first! Perhaps it is you and the rest of the socialists that should leave the nation that my ancestors fought so bravely to make a liberty minded nation for.
I'm certainly not socialist.  You don't have a very good understanding of political classifications if you think myself (or any of my friends) are socialist.

I am also a Libertarian.

Again, you are off the mark thinking that I am any kind of a socialist, it simply is an inaccurate judgement.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 12:33:02 PM
Beef, it's what's for dinner!
Darn tootin!

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 12:37:13 PM
17 TRILLION in debt, where would you like to stop KNEEL
I would have stopped decades ago.  The social and military welfare is gigantically out of control.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 22, 2014, 12:54:21 PM
Cow fart studies are what is out of control while that money is being spent our infrastructure is getting worse everyday, would it kill someone to spend that money on roads cause that would be excellent! And Neal no offense but I don't think anyone believes you are Libertarian.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 01:06:31 PM
Your post is complete and udder crap.

To you perhaps,,, but so is Bovine Flatulent Global Warming studies to me and others who think this is an utter waste of taxpayer money.

BTW.... I do not know if you actually intended for your post to be such an awesome play on words, I must commend you on using the word "udder" (the baggy mammary gland on a bovine/cow) along with the word "crap" (considering that are basically talking about cow farts).  If not, I think you mean "utter crap."  :thumbup:

1.  It makes perfect scientific sense to study all causes of the warming, cow farts included.  Humans have domesticated massive amounts of cows.  Methane is a known GHG, and the amount that the domestication of livestock impacts our climate is certainly a legitimate study topic.  You are being highly ignorant on this issue.

I hardly believe I am ignorant on this issue but hey, I'll just say "whatever"  ::) on that one. 

Over the lifetime of the earth, there were and have been far more animals on the planet farting away for many centuries and I am certain it will continue.  And increase in domestic livestock levels and their associated flatulent methane output levels have certainly been negated by man's reduction (and elimination in some cases) of certain animal species.  I have to believe that man's impact has caused a significant decrease in the global population levels of elephants and hippos (most of the larger mammals) has proportionately decreased the amount of flatulent methane produced by former herd levels and compensated for by cow flatulent methane levels. 

In short, a wash... but the point is that it is a waste of taxpayer money.... much of which is spent anyway by global warming-supporting politicians protecting their own interests, corporate "green" company kickbacks (do you want to hear the Solydra story again?) and misguided belief systems over that of their core constituencies.  Those politicians ARE NOT SCIENTISTS and simply use the global warming lie to exploit money and political favors from corporations and the other members of the federal government.  Same game that has been going on for decades.... even longer than global warming discussions.  Call me all the words you wish but I tend to like to think my taxpaye dollars, your taxpayer dollars, and everyone else's taxpayer dollars are quite a bit better spent on simple life necessities: food, clothing, shelter, heat (not everyone has these you know and no global warming study is ever going to help those in need of those basic necessities).

2.  Yes, sophisticated understanding, that comes from continued scientific discoveries, made by studying (cow farts included).  Again, you are showing a large amount of ignorance if you think our understanding of the climate is not more sophisticated than in Roman times.  Get a freeking clue dude.

I will take that one as I was too sloppy with my words previously.  :thumbup: Yes... data collection and technology to collect said data are indeed more sophisticated.  Bravo!

The "understanding of the climate" is not more sophisticated... it is simply based on making more connections as to what influences what on the planet and the mechanisms by which that is understood to be occuring.  If that is"sophistication of understanding" to you, so be it.  I view it more as seeing what has always been there but our eyes and minds were not processing what is truly already there.

3. You are 100% incorrect in your statement that the data gathered over the last 100 years (and the past 30+ for high resolution) is estimates.  That is absolutely wrong.  It is directly measured data.

After reading my previous post, I can understand how you interpreted my previous statement.  The "last 130-year data" (post Industrial Revolution time frame to present, generally speaking) has been measured more accurately and yes, in some cases, direct measurements.  My point with all of my "...blathering about earth and its age" is that what we have measured in the last 130 or so years cannot be easily extrapolated back into pre-Industrial Revolution temperature and global climate data!  No one knows how hot the earth actually was when it was forming, solidifying, or what species of fruit Adam and Eve were eating.  You have a VERY small data set for declaring "fact" about global warming since the majority of the data wasn't (and can no longer be) "collected."  Plain and simple.

Obviously you support federal spending on these global warming studies and many of us here at OWBI.com do not.  Support/believe what you wish but again, you have a small pail of facts in search of a problem statement.  I disagree that global warming is indeed the problem statement.  Pretty simple.

4.  Your blathering about earth and it's age, and man somehow destroying shows how out to lunch you are.  Climate change is not about man destroying the earth, that isn't going to happen.  It is about how much man's impact is absorbed by the planet and how the natural cycles and processes of the planet deal with man's influence.  Neal

You support Bovine Flatulent Global warming studies and I am out to lunch!??  :o  Wowser!

According to YOUR belief in the global warming theory(-ies), man is destroying the earth.  It is one of the underlying themes of the whole pseudo-warming issue.  Somehow all of this cow-farting methane and carbon dioxide-producing internal combustion processes are "killing the earth." 

Your pseudo-theory supporters insist that somehow, every property-destroying typhoon, Hurricane Sandy, tornado in the midwest, flood, earthquake tremor, record high temperature recorded, extinction of the Golden Toad, polar ice cap shrinking 3 millimeter fluctuation of a given location's sea level, and on and on and on and on is all do to global warming and climate change.  These events do indeed destroy the earth.  Buildings collapseCrock-O-Chit,,, plain and simple.  The alarmists supporting climate change support it for that very reason (they believe it is slowly killing the planet and all of its inhabitants). 

Destruction and creation are natural phenomena but somehow you global warming guys think that man is not part of the earth's natural evolutionary process?  We humans are animals too,,,, and we have been farting since we existed here.  But I am not going to say my butt methane is creating a global phenomenon.

Indeed it was.  Glad you caught it.   :thumbup:

You are indeed being ignorant if you think that valid research on our climate is a waste of money.

Our understanding of the climate is indeed more sophisticated.  With what we have learned and our use of technology is it quite clear that is the case.  You are trying to be obtuse with silly ambiguous descriptions. 

This is why we have proxy reconstruction of the planet's temperature, which the scientific community gives credence to.  It is actually quite easy to extrapolate the proxy data and meld it with instrumental records.  It isn't a very complicated issue.

I do support federal funding on climate research, there is much we do not yet know or understand about the climate.  It is quite easy to see it is changing, and we need to educate ourselves on that change.  I understand that many here wish to remain ignorant and uneducated on this topic, however our society, thankfully has a better perspective than that.  I believe in the factual data, and well vetted scientific consensus. If people here wish to remain ignorant, and have a conniption fit over cow farts and disregard data and the scientific community that is their prerogative as well.

I support educating ourselves.  Yes you are indeed out to lunch.   No, according to my belief man has an impact on the climate, which is changing the conditions to which we are accustomed.  I have never said that we are destroying the earth (and have actually said we are not if you bothered to pay attention).  This is not pseudo  theory, it is straight theory.  You are projecting my beliefs or agreements with what you stated, when I have never done so.  Your assumptions are off base and inaccurate.  I have stated this to you before, yet you continue down this ignorant road of stubbornness.    You are continually trying to associate what I believe (per second sentence in this paragraph) with some radical world ending beliefs.  That simply is inaccurate and idiotic. 

No one has said that creation and destruction isn't part of the earth's natural processes, however you continue to insinuate that man doesn't have any impact on earth's natural processes, and that, as history has shown is quite is a foolhardy belief.  While your farts may be an insignificant variable in the climate other activities and process which you are part of have a much more significant impact.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 01:11:19 PM
Cow fart studies are what is out of control while that money is being spent our infrastructure is getting worse everyday, would it kill someone to spend that money on roads cause that would be excellent! And Neal no offense but I don't think anyone believes you are Libertarian.
Cow fart studies are an insignificant drop in the bucket in what is out of control, don't be silly.

I can imagine that, many seem all to eager to classify me as something I'm not. 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 22, 2014, 01:51:48 PM
Cow fart studies are an insignificant drop in the bucket in what is out of control, don't be silly.

I can imagine that, many seem all to eager to classify me as something I'm not.  Neal

With all due respect, you've clearly classified yourself.  :)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 02:27:27 PM
A TRUE libertarian does not fund his pet projects in Maine with stolen tax dollars from Florida, pet projects such as yours are simply a money and power grab from the fed govt to choose the winners, again you did not answer me, how much of your personal money do you spend that I do not to promote your agenda, if you choose to support the money and power grab then do it locally with your own dam money!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 02:33:57 PM
A TRUE libertarian does not fund his pet projects in Maine with stolen tax dollars from Florida, pet projects such as yours are simply a money and power grab from the fed govt to choose the winners, again you did not answer me, how much of your personal money do you spend that I do not to promote your agenda, if you choose to support the money and power grab then do it locally with your own dam money!!!!!
There are many types of true libertarians, it simply isn't limited to the small scope you put forth. 

Also, this isn't my pet project, it is the pet project of all citizens.

It would be a percentage of how much more or less I pay in taxes.

Neal

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 02:35:30 PM
Cow fart studies are an insignificant drop in the bucket in what is out of control, don't be silly.

I can imagine that, many seem all to eager to classify me as something I'm not.  Neal

With all due respect, you've clearly classified yourself.  :)
I know, I stated that that already, or more specifically most closely align with the Libertarian viewpoint.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 02:38:09 PM
NOT MY PET PROJECT, my pet project is to leave my children with less debt and more LIBERTY than I had given to me, STOP THE SPENDING NOW!!!!! Are you saying that because I refuse to join in that I'm not a true citizen?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 02:40:06 PM
NOT MY PET PROJECT, my pet project is to leave my children with less debt and more LIBERTY than I had given to me, STOP THE SPENDING NOW!!!!! Are you saying that because I refuse to join in that I'm not a true citizen?
It is indeed your pet project, it is all of our's as a pet project.

I share that sentiment.

I also agree to stop wasteful spending.

Refuse to join what?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 22, 2014, 02:42:52 PM
I also agree to stop wasteful spending.

...but agrees with bovine flatulence study subsidies?  ::) :bash:

"....these are not the droids you are looking for...."
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 02:57:07 PM
I give up, once a socialist always a socialist, he more than likely has no young ones to be concerned about anyway, KNEEL why not check out china, perhaps they are more free with their hard earned money and they can save the world with you
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 03:00:16 PM
I also agree to stop wasteful spending.

...but agrees with bovine flatulence study subsidies?  ::) :bash:

"....these are not the droids you are looking for...."
If they are a present a serious and valid perspective yes.

Cow fart studies are not the spending you are looking for if you want to turn this country around debt wise.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 03:06:05 PM
That is just it, all yes all wasteful spending must stop or this nation is doomed, your pet project is just one of the millions that need to be pulled from the teet screaming.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 22, 2014, 03:08:35 PM
Cow fart studies are not the spending you are looking for if you want to turn this country around debt wise.

Neal

I wholly agree.  But cow fart studies and their federal subsidies clearly demonstrate how controlling media, perpetuating lies, and rewarding scientific grant funding with U.S. taxpayer dollars can influence elements of the citizenry to believe that there is a huge amount of legitimate spending occuring in the name of "science" (albeit pseudo-science).
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 03:11:49 PM
Cow fart studies are not the spending you are looking for if you want to turn this country around debt wise.

Neal

I wholly agree.  But cow fart studies and their federal subsidies clearly demonstrate how controlling media, perpetuating lies, and rewarding scientific grant funding with U.S. tapayer dollars can influence elements of the citizenry to believe that there is a huge amount of legitimate spending occuring in the name of "science" (albeit pseudo-science).
100% crap.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 03:33:01 PM
The truth hurts when it's your pet program under fire right KNEEL.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 04:38:47 PM
The truth hurts when it's your pet program under fire right KNEEL.
It's your pet program as much as mine slimstick.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 04:49:27 PM
No you are wrong Kneel, none of them are mine, you see my industry as well as myself will survive much better without your govt's influence you may support any idea you may have, don't steal my hard earned money to support it, why is that so hard for you to understand, did somebody drop you on your head as a child and you really need big govt to choose everything in life for you or have you been brainwashed into thinking you can't make it on your own.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 22, 2014, 04:59:19 PM
Fix the roads in this country if they have money to spend. Neal do you live in a big city where you are upset cause cause there is smog, I have a feeling you live in a condo!  ::)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 05:00:54 PM
No you are wrong Kneel, none of them are mine, you see my industry as well as myself will survive much better without your govt's influence you may support any idea you may have, don't steal my hard earned money to support it, why is that so hard for you to understand, did somebody drop you on your head as a child and you really need big govt to choose everything in life for you or have you been brainwashed into thinking you can't make it on your own.
(http://www.funnyloves.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Crazy-Funny-People-16-FunnyPica.com_.jpg)

You are loopy.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 05:46:38 PM
NICE SELFIE KNEEL !!!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 06:12:32 PM
NICE SELFIE KNEEL !!!!!!!
You see the size of my cup slimstick?  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/bc.gif)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 22, 2014, 06:17:01 PM
I also see you are not wearing any socks, wonder where they could be, oops if think we may have solved the mystery!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Big Wood on April 22, 2014, 06:57:16 PM
I'll get in on this can the epa to an air quality check on all the large air force planes that fly over my house wasting our hard earned money maybe some of you need to hold the governments hand but I don't also can they put catalytic converters on the bombs they are dropping clean it up in the government
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 22, 2014, 06:58:05 PM
I also see you are not wearing any socks, wonder where they could be, oops if think we may have solved the mystery!!!!!
Would you like a hit off my peace pipe?  haha

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 22, 2014, 11:02:09 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 23, 2014, 03:45:53 AM
Even if I were gay, which I am not but truly don't care if you are, I would decline from that offer as I have a suspicion that it smells like dirty socks, seriously Neal, where do we draw the line on spending?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: merrellroofing on April 23, 2014, 05:24:17 AM
My two favorite gay guys names---Neal and Bob!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: oldchenowth on April 23, 2014, 05:31:20 AM
You sure are a pompous knob, Neil.  For someone who came on this site to learn more about owb's, you seem to be full of yourself and more knowledgable than anyone else on here. Everyone else is "ignorant", "ilinformed" "full of crap" and how many other holier than thou phrases you can google.   Ironic, that the amount you know about ALL things here, you don't even own a burner.  With all your vast knowledge, why do you even need to get the menucia on this site?  You seem to ooze superior knowledge and experience from evey pour. Must be there is more weight in theory than experience, like most of these guys on here have.  Reading this latest thread has made me sick!  All the dribble you spew. 

I know I have broken a cardinal rule by my last paragraph.  I the moderators could give me one or two days to print off my PM's, I would appreciate it.  At that time I will close my account on my own.

Thank you all for your help in the past.  I will just check in under guest once in a while.

Rich
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 23, 2014, 05:38:07 AM
OH BOY , nice post pitman, ain't no particulate matter escaping there is there, I love to watch those pulls, we rarely have the big stuff here in the northeast but when I'm traveling and I get a chance I sure like to watch, what is it that they inject to get the 20 foot flames out of the stack when she revs up? Oldchenowth please do not give up, I certainly did not see anything bad in your post but then again I'm not a moderator, if anybody gets kicked off for this thread then I guess it would be myself and Neal.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 06:50:08 AM
Even if I were gay, which I am not but truly don't care if you are, I would decline from that offer as I have a suspicion that it smells like dirty socks, seriously Neal, where do we draw the line on spending?
I've made it quite clear, I am against huge overspending on social and military welfare.  I am all for cutting waste and a balanced budget.  How have you not gotten that yet, I have stated it like 5 or 6 times already...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 06:51:26 AM
;)
I'm a Dodge fan.  Got a 2500 Hemi.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 07:13:15 AM
You sure are a pompous knob, Neil.  For someone who came on this site to learn more about owb's, you seem to be full of yourself and more knowledgable than anyone else on here. Everyone else is "ignorant", "ilinformed" "full of crap" and how many other holier than thou phrases you can google.   Ironic, that the amount you know about ALL things here, you don't even own a burner.  With all your vast knowledge, why do you even need to get the menucia on this site?  You seem to ooze superior knowledge and experience from evey pour. Must be there is more weight in theory than experience, like most of these guys on here have.  Reading this latest thread has made me sick!  All the dribble you spew. 

I know I have broken a cardinal rule by my last paragraph.  I the moderators could give me one or two days to print off my PM's, I would appreciate it.  At that time I will close my account on my own.

Thank you all for your help in the past.  I will just check in under guest once in a while.

Rich
What a narcissistic whiner you are. 

Calling people out on their ignorance or stupidity on a specific (off) topic issue doesn't indicate or suggest that I somehow know more than anyone else here about all, or any other specific topic.  Get a grip dude.  I have never claimed that I am able to possess more knowledge on any topic than anyone else here.  If you know something more about the specifics of climate change and global temperature anomaly I'm all ears and willing to hear it.  However if all you put forth is some illogical line of crap, I'm gonna call you out on it.  Such as I am doing now to you.

You certainly have a comprehension problem if you think I have portrayed myself as someone who knows more about OWF than everyone else here.  I specifically started a thread declaring my noob status, and asking for insight and suggestion, which was offered, accepted, and implemented in my design.  Now, because I can accept the fact that our climate has show significant signs of warming over the past couple centuries, and admit that man has an influence in the climate you are making that into some gigantic leap of faith that portrays me as me being all knowing about OWF topics.  That's simply disgustingly childish behavior, you are basically throwing a whiny temper tantrum.

Closing your account because you can't openly admit factual data and scientific findings, or have no logical argument against someone who provides that argument?  Really?? You have to be kidding me...  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif)

That has to be one of the most stick your fingers in your ears, childish behaviors ever.  What possesses a person to take that path instead of discussion of the facts, evidence, and positions provided with sound and logical arguments?

Neal 
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 23, 2014, 07:56:37 AM
That has to be one of the most stick your fingers in your ears, childish behaviors ever.  What possesses a person to take that path instead of discussion of the facts, evidence, and positions provided with sound and logical arguments?

Neal


Hi Neal.

I am particularly interested in the logic behind your support and validity of Bovine Flatulence Global Warming theory.

Are you of the opinion that all other large mammals on the planet should be studied with taxpayer dollars for methane output via flatulence?

Also, do you feel federal funding is needed for studying the mechanisms and processes that consume the methane produced by the large animals' levels of flatulence and associated methane output?

Similarly, in your opinion, should the EPA and the World Health Organization receive additional U.S. taxpayer dollars in order to study excessive airborne particulates associated with biological outputs of methane?  Flatulence standards may need to be established as one could possibly corelate these particulate levels with the disruption of the navigational behaviors of the American honey bee.

Lastly, if airborne particulates associated with biological outputs of methane are deemed statistically significant, should federal subsidies be granted to study the reflectivity of these particles and their associated impact on global warming data validity?

Thank you.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 08:23:56 AM
That has to be one of the most stick your fingers in your ears, childish behaviors ever.  What possesses a person to take that path instead of discussion of the facts, evidence, and positions provided with sound and logical arguments?

Neal

Hi Neal.

I am particularly interested in the logic behind your support and validatity of Bovine Flatulent Global Warming theory.

Are you of the opinion that all other large mammals on the planet should be studied with taxpayer dollars for methane output via flatulence?

Also, do you feel federal funding is needed for studying the mechanisms and processes that consume the methane produced by the large animals' levels of flatulence and associated methane output?

Similarly, in your opinion, should the EPA and the World Health Organization receive additional U.S. taxpayer dollars in order to study excessive airborne particulates associated with biological outputs of methane?  Flatulence standards may need to be established as one couldpossibly coordinate these particulte levels with the disruption of the navigational behaviors of the American honey bee.

Lastly, if airborne particulates associated with biological outputs of methane are deemed statistically significant, should federal subsidies be granted to study the reflectivity of these particles and their associated impact on global warming data validity?

Thank you.  :thumbup:
It would be my opinion that we should study (most studies of this nature are done already) large animal domestication impact on the climate.  Certainly.

Indeed I do, I think that in this case the federal government is the proper authority to conduct(ed) the execution of studies of this nature, as has been done in the past.  This type of study fits perfectly under the USDA.

If both organizations can put forth a merited proposal of such studies, I would not be opposed to funding some of it.

I believe studies have already shown that anthropic emissions have a statistical significance.  http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/11/20/1314392110.abstract (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/11/20/1314392110.abstract)

Neal

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 23, 2014, 08:29:02 AM
.... and those answers sir are exactly the reasons why I shall continue to object to this kind of wasteful U.S. taxpayer dollars spending until I am decomposing.  Thank you for your replies.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 09:22:56 AM
.... and those answers sir are exactly the reasons why I shall continue to object to this kind of wasteful U.S. taxpayer dollars spending until I am decomposing.  Thank you for your replies.  :thumbup:
We fundamentally disagree.

You are welcome.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: farmboythegreat on April 23, 2014, 10:04:59 AM
 :thumbup: :post: HIT HIM WITH YOUR PURSE   :thumbup: :thumbup:  this is better that saturday morning cartoons
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 23, 2014, 10:19:22 AM
I'd be interested in some numbers, lets say comparing todays animals vs back say in the early 1800's when it would take one buffalo herd hours to go by. Just out of curiosity as I'm sure domesticated numbers are higher than the animals in the wild a few hundred years ago.

A interesting little factoid, the deer population in Indiana is actually higher now than when the state was settled by the white man. All the grain grown in the state makes for a high energy diet allowing more does to give birth to viable twins or even triplets.

Most of your gas from cows comes from a high corn diet, their fed all that corn to get the marbling in beef which the consumer demands.

Dairy cows are fed corn too of course, but not near what beef cattle are fed, too much corn will ruin a dairy cow vs a beef cow which the whole point is to get em fed out ASAP.

Personally I'm looking into getting certified as both humane and grass fed.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 23, 2014, 10:25:55 AM
They just did a study and found out that only domesticated livestock fart, no other animals pass gas! Ok that was a joke, but I think I figured out the cause for dinosaur extinction, it was all the gigantic farts from millions of dinosaurs and they obviously suffocated :o
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 23, 2014, 10:30:33 AM
Think about all the insects that fart after eating the decaying wood left to rot in the woods!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 23, 2014, 10:33:39 AM
A interesting little factoid, the deer population in Indiana is actually higher now than when the state was settled by the white man. All the grain grown in the state makes for a high energy diet allowing more does to give birth to viable twins or even triplets.

Think about all the insects that fart after eating the decaying wood left to rot in the woods!

Sh-hh-hh-hh-hh-hhh-hhh guys..... the Methane Nazis are lurking around.  :-X :P :P :P
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: farmboythegreat on April 23, 2014, 10:35:47 AM
Think about all the insects that fart after eating the decaying wood left to rot in the woods!
could you imagine a dinosaur fart ???
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 23, 2014, 10:37:25 AM
Perhaps we should steal the taxpayer money to fund a study, oops already done that
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 23, 2014, 10:38:42 AM
could you imagine a dinosaur fart ???

Kinda.... but I would imagine some additional wasteful government funding has financed a "Mammilian Flatuence Blast Radius" computational computer program.... probably for military purposes.  :o :P
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 23, 2014, 10:49:25 AM
Haha too funny guys, hey where did Neal go  ???
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 23, 2014, 10:51:24 AM
RAISING MONEY!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: sceptre74 on April 23, 2014, 10:52:13 AM
Lol. You beat me to it
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 23, 2014, 10:55:44 AM
He may have taken the first flight out to the arctic to check on the sea ice  :bash:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 23, 2014, 10:56:29 AM
RAISING MONEY!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't need too Slim,,, he counts on his congressional rep.'s to steal and misaapropriate it or him.  ;)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Sloppy_Snood on April 23, 2014, 10:59:27 AM
He may have taken the first flight out to the arctic to check on the sea ice  :bash:

I see the U.S. Coast Guard's Polar Star Heavy Icebreaker making another run up north.... fueled with our wasted U.S. taxpayer dollars!  :(
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 23, 2014, 11:18:02 AM
 :bag:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 23, 2014, 12:03:36 PM
He could also be "Out To Lunch"! That is one of Neal's favorite sayings, along with the word Indeed.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 23, 2014, 12:17:08 PM
Prius....yet another gigantic shafting to the american people.

The newest diesels in use in Europe not only get better milage than a Prius, but are actually fun to drive.

I haven't verified this yet, but my cousins from across the pond claim if you take a Blue Tec diesel and run it in lets say Beijing whats coming out the exhaust pipe is cleaner than whats going in the intake.

Diesel Co2 is half the limit of gas engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec)

Above article is somewhat out of date, newest european standards meet or surpass our latest standards for emissions.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 23, 2014, 12:44:55 PM
Europe also has a higher cetane in their diesel which burns more complete than ours
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 23, 2014, 12:45:54 PM
I meant higher cetane numbers
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 06:24:06 PM
I'd be interested in some numbers, lets say comparing todays animals vs back say in the early 1800's when it would take one buffalo herd hours to go by. Just out of curiosity as I'm sure domesticated numbers are higher than the animals in the wild a few hundred years ago.

A interesting little factoid, the deer population in Indiana is actually higher now than when the state was settled by the white man. All the grain grown in the state makes for a high energy diet allowing more does to give birth to viable twins or even triplets.

Most of your gas from cows comes from a high corn diet, their fed all that corn to get the marbling in beef which the consumer demands.

Dairy cows are fed corn too of course, but not near what beef cattle are fed, too much corn will ruin a dairy cow vs a beef cow which the whole point is to get em fed out ASAP.

Personally I'm looking into getting certified as both humane and grass fed.
Problem is corn is expensive compared to hay, which is fed to cows for the vast majority of their food consumption.  Corn is generally used to finish off the animals or supplement forage. 

I prefer a grass fed and corn finished animal myself for meat quality.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 06:27:07 PM
Haha too funny guys, hey where did Neal go  ???
Went to the Henry Ford Museum for the day.   :thumbup:

But seriously though, fart jokes aside, our mass domestication of animals does indeed have a measurable impact as far as anthropogenic related emissions go.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 06:27:46 PM
He could also be "Out To Lunch"! That is one of Neal's favorite sayings, along with the word Indeed.
Indeed!  :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 06:30:11 PM
Prius....yet another gigantic shafting to the american people.

The newest diesels in use in Europe not only get better milage than a Prius, but are actually fun to drive.

I haven't verified this yet, but my cousins from across the pond claim if you take a Blue Tec diesel and run it in lets say Beijing whats coming out the exhaust pipe is cleaner than whats going in the intake.

Diesel Co2 is half the limit of gas engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec)

Above article is somewhat out of date, newest european standards meet or surpass our latest standards for emissions.
The Prius has it's place, and is actually a decent car for that particular segment.  I am all for diesel vehicles.  We are getting a good handle on how to reduce emissions out of them.  I'd take a nice VW TDI.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Pinehouse4 on April 23, 2014, 07:18:53 PM
You sure are a pompous knob, Neil.  For someone who came on this site to learn more about owb's, you seem to be full of yourself and more knowledgable than anyone else on here. Everyone else is "ignorant", "ilinformed" "full of crap" and how many other holier than thou phrases you can google.   Ironic, that the amount you know about ALL things here, you don't even own a burner.  With all your vast knowledge, why do you even need to get the menucia on this site?  You seem to ooze superior knowledge and experience from evey pour. Must be there is more weight in theory than experience, like most of these guys on here have.  Reading this latest thread has made me sick!  All the dribble you spew. 

I know I have broken a cardinal rule by my last paragraph.  I the moderators could give me one or two days to print off my PM's, I would appreciate it.  At that time I will close my account on my own.

Thank you all for your help in the past.  I will just check in under guest once in a while.

Rich

I want to know what happened to Rich.

I cannot believe he has been moderated out for this posting.

Can someone please advise?

Bob



Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 23, 2014, 07:23:48 PM
You sure are a pompous knob, Neil.  For someone who came on this site to learn more about owb's, you seem to be full of yourself and more knowledgable than anyone else on here. Everyone else is "ignorant", "ilinformed" "full of crap" and how many other holier than thou phrases you can google.   Ironic, that the amount you know about ALL things here, you don't even own a burner.  With all your vast knowledge, why do you even need to get the menucia on this site?  You seem to ooze superior knowledge and experience from evey pour. Must be there is more weight in theory than experience, like most of these guys on here have.  Reading this latest thread has made me sick!  All the dribble you spew. 

I know I have broken a cardinal rule by my last paragraph.  I the moderators could give me one or two days to print off my PM's, I would appreciate it.  At that time I will close my account on my own.

Thank you all for your help in the past.  I will just check in under guest once in a while.

Rich

I want to know what happened to Rich.

I cannot believe he has been moderated out for this posting.

Can someone please advise?

Bob
He wasn't modded out, he left on his own and disabled his account.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 24, 2014, 04:51:47 AM
I sure hope not!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 24, 2014, 06:38:11 AM
I'd be interested in some numbers, lets say comparing todays animals vs back say in the early 1800's when it would take one buffalo herd hours to go by. Just out of curiosity as I'm sure domesticated numbers are higher than the animals in the wild a few hundred years ago.

A interesting little factoid, the deer population in Indiana is actually higher now than when the state was settled by the white man. All the grain grown in the state makes for a high energy diet allowing more does to give birth to viable twins or even triplets.

Most of your gas from cows comes from a high corn diet, their fed all that corn to get the marbling in beef which the consumer demands.

Dairy cows are fed corn too of course, but not near what beef cattle are fed, too much corn will ruin a dairy cow vs a beef cow which the whole point is to get em fed out ASAP.

Personally I'm looking into getting certified as both humane and grass fed.
Problem is corn is expensive compared to hay, which is fed to cows for the vast majority of their food consumption.  Corn is generally used to finish off the animals or supplement forage. 

I prefer a grass fed and corn finished animal myself for meat quality.   :thumbup:

Neal

Yup, used to have a dairy before the 70 head of beef cows. Even back in the day the dairy cows always had corn in their rations. Of course not as expensive if you grow it, dry it, store it and process it yourself. The beef cows get the fines that come out of the grain cleaner, not about to grind $4 plus a bushel corn for feed.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 25, 2014, 02:00:59 PM
Hmmm.....  Looks like this thread took off without me
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 25, 2014, 02:04:27 PM
It was a good time Scott!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: farmboythegreat on April 25, 2014, 02:07:03 PM
any miniute now someone is gonna call somebody a poopyhead  :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 25, 2014, 06:41:10 PM
Kaka cranium for short
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 26, 2014, 07:16:25 AM
Manure membrane....   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Homerglide on April 26, 2014, 10:23:56 AM
Here is an interesting thought.

People who are respected and looked to for good solid advice in a certain area (let's say wood heaters) can lose credibility to 50% of those in ear shot when discussing political issues.

What is it about politics that makes someone lose their objectivity?

If any of us happened upon someone's home brewed wood fueled hot water heating system, we could look through the system with an objective view of it and realize whether it is functional and to what degree of efficiency. But, see a statement concerning a political issue and immediately the blinders come on and it's all about ragging the opinion of the opposing party. 

We have the political system that for years has been coveted by most of the world and yet we take it for granted and taint its very principles by choosing to make enemies of our own fellow citizens. I say "Do not let some group of people splinter us with their propaganda machines. Refuse to be instigated against your fellow citizens"

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 26, 2014, 10:38:29 AM
LIBERTY is worth discussing at all levels, do we not have the liberty to express our opinions without being chastised for it,
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 26, 2014, 10:52:36 AM
LIBERTY is worth discussing at all levels, do we not have the liberty to express our opinions without being chastised for it,

Well sure, unless of course the IRS gets involved
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 26, 2014, 11:03:15 AM
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on the credibility issue our political rants have absolutely nothing to do with good advice, and knowledge of outdoor boilers. There are multiple political parties and political views that's how our debates get started its all in the name of entertainment don't hold it against us. :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Homerglide on April 26, 2014, 02:33:06 PM
LIBERTY is worth discussing at all levels, do we not have the liberty to express our opinions without being chastised for it,

I am not sure if that is a question. I would say the answer is no, if it is a question. A person has a right, or the liberty to say whatever they choose if it is deemed allowable in their society. To expect not to be chastised, or not be supported for that matter has nothing to do with liberty. Does it?

I think a definition of the word liberty would be in order at this point. It is used quite often and I wonder how many people have an understanding of the word and its philosophical roots.

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 26, 2014, 04:41:39 PM
Websters, Liberty, the state of being free, freedom, my heart says that liberty is the ability to be free from any oppressor, rather it be govt. a dictator, or anyone else who i choose to be free from, when i speak of Liberty i am speaking about each and every person who chooses liberty to have the freedom to speak and do with his own body or property as he (or she) wishes, along with that liberty comes the responsibility to pay for his (or her) mistakes, the problem that i see happening here is some want the liberty to do dumb things that they want and to steal my money to pay for, that is a form of oppression that I as a libertarian will fight against till the day somebody shovels dirt in my face, you sir have the liberty to disagree with me and we can disagree, if you choose to use that to judge my character and hold it against me then we sir are not friends but instead enemies, Quick true story, While in Middleton Wisconsin testing the chip boiler 2 years ago I was hanging out at the bar next door to my motel waiting for my dinner and a gorgeous black haired black eyed obviously middle eastern young lady of about 22 years old walks by waiting tables, i noticed her name tag on the way by, when she came back I stopped her to ask about her name, I had never met anybody with that name so I was curious, obviously she thought that this strange old hippie was trying to pick her up, I assured her that I am a very happily married man and that I simply was curious, I asked her why a man or woman would name their most precious possession in the world that name, she told me that her DAD named her this as he escaped the Shah of IRAN and now lives in AMERICA, her name sir is LIBERTY, my question to you would be, if a man from IRAN knows what LIBERTY is all about then why in GODS name can we not instill this in our own citizens, answer FREE STUFF FOR VOTES!!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Homerglide on April 26, 2014, 05:08:05 PM
Well then. Anyone who is so quick to establish enemies is no one for me to associate with.

Enjoy the remainder of your life and all that comes with it. The infrastructure to do your business, the military to protect you, the police, firefighters, communications, power lines, you know; everything that someone else has worked to establish for our use. And thank all of the other people who have been victimized by the government taxes that pays to support all of that.



Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 26, 2014, 05:23:06 PM
Homer where in anything that slim said do you come up with the idea that he is against The infrastructure to do your business, the military to protect you, the police, firefighters, communications, power lines, you know; everything that someone else has worked to establish for our use. And thank all of the other people who have been victimized by the government taxes that pays to support all of that. He's talking about wasted spending! No need to interpret it the way you want just because you oppose. Here is an example he is talking about from my state for instance, they are planning on spending 100,000 on a silly study on how an existing bridge affects migrating birds! That's the wasteful spending he and most others have a problem with.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Homerglide on April 26, 2014, 05:53:11 PM
I have seen many posts by that member crying about he pays too much. After his statement declaring us enemies, I chose to say what I feel about greedy all about my pocketbook type of a person. I am about the good of the whole rather than what is best for my pocketbook, when all are doing well, I do well right along side them.

I do understand that there is much waste in our governments. Until we decide to stand up to those who are controlling Washington, we will spend money to make a few richer while researching for a bridges worthiness. It is not our government, it is those with the purse strings who control government. I pay your campaign so much and you make sure I get this contract to do this that or the other. Corporate America has no business playing monopoly with our government.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 26, 2014, 06:10:19 PM
I won't get into an argument with you about how you feel about the current government but I really don't think you have any business judging slim as you don't know his history and what he's been through in his life.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 27, 2014, 04:31:07 AM
Thank you Jwood,  Homerglide you have no idea how close we are politically, there are many things that govt. Does that are necessary, allow me to give a few examples, roads and bridges, here in Maine our secondary roads are not good, like clockwork every 4 years there is a bond issue to raise money for repair of these at a cost to the taxpayer of about 6%  most people because of the matching federal funds will vote the bond issue in, I do not think it has ever been voted down, here is the tricky part, the last time I fueled my 2000 F250 ( obviously not a rich mans truck ) with diesel fuel to go do a job I think the sign on the pump stated the taxes on that fuel was 57 cents per gallon, that money was supposed to be held in a lockbox for the repair of roads and bridges just like your social security payment but instead somebody in our state legislature decided it could be better served in the general fund, again just like your social security payment, the general fund then uses that money in any way they choose to buy votes with FREE STUFF. 
  My 7 year old grandson was here last night with his Mom, I feel great shame that my generation has allowed this govt. to get to the point that his share of the federal debt is about $65,000, My Mom when she passed away from Cancer over 20 years ago left me with nothing other than memories because we were very poor, she also left me with no debt to my govt. Do you have any clue where I am going with this? do you not think it is time that the people of this great nation understand that the elite as well as govt. are working hand in hand to enslave its own citizens, the only way to stop the cycle is for us as individuals to take the responsibility for ourselves and use the liberty that our nation is known for to educate our young about how corrupt we as a nation can and have become, For the sake of my grandson I will do everything in my power to break the cycle before it is to late, STOP THE SPENDING, Corporate handouts, subsidies, Free Stuff for the citizens, govt funded methadone clinics, Monsanto, Solindra, do i need to go on. You are not my Enemy, that was a figure of speech sir and I think you know that, you have the Liberty to speak your mind and I urge you to do so, you are free for now and I  sincerely hope that we all stay that way, if you have a better idea on how to solve our debt problem then please feel free to speak up while you still can.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 27, 2014, 05:31:28 AM
When did it change that you didn't have be responsible for your own actions. Do this, do that. oh thats okay we will bail you out. We will help you with other peoples money. When is the last time anyone on this forum voted their own pay raises. The politicians are out of control.  Anything for a vote.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 27, 2014, 06:01:26 AM
I won't get into an argument with you about how you feel about the current government but I really don't think you have any business judging slim as you don't know his history and what he's been through in his life.
Funny, you never were so quick to pick up the mantle for other members being judged oh so recently...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 27, 2014, 06:06:23 AM
When did it change that you didn't have be responsible for your own actions. Do this, do that. oh thats okay we will bail you out. We will help you with other peoples money. When is the last time anyone on this forum voted their own pay raises. The politicians are out of control.  Anything for a vote.
For a large majority it is still that way.  Politicians have been out of control for decades. 

The biggest fallacy in modern times is trickle down economics given to us by Reagan.  All the while spending the treasury and creating and increasing the military welfare.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 27, 2014, 06:30:27 AM
Neal, this is one of those areas that we can agree, I read someplace that we currently have over 900 military bases in something like 160 nations, this is all funded by the American taxpayer, i'm not sure but this might be overkill and designed to enrich the war mongers like John Mccain, this is only one of the wasteful programs that we have, PLEASE do not get me wrong, I do appreciate all of what our soldiers do and they should be rewarded as they have been promised but John Mccain and his war monger buddies must go, When Ron Paul started talking about the need to cut back on the number of bases overseas he was called a crazy old man by almost all the press, perhaps some of our problem is the way he was presented by the press, we simply need to STOP THE WASTEFUL SPENDING, overseas bases are in my opinion a good place to start.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 27, 2014, 06:38:10 AM
Neal, this is one of those areas that we can agree, I read someplace that we currently have over 900 military bases in something like 160 nations, this is all funded by the American taxpayer, i'm not sure but this might be overkill and designed to enrich the war mongers like John Mccain, this is only one of the wasteful programs that we have, PLEASE do not get me wrong, I do appreciate all of what our soldiers do and they should be rewarded as they have been promised but John Mccain and his war monger buddies must go, When Ron Paul started talking about the need to cut back on the number of bases overseas he was called a crazy old man by almost all the press, perhaps some of our problem is the way he was presented by the press, we simply need to STOP THE WASTEFUL SPENDING, overseas bases are in my opinion a good place to start.

Gotta love Ron and Rand Paul!    But dont fret folks, hilary has vowed to save us all in 2016
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 27, 2014, 06:42:49 AM
OH boy, you sure do know how to stir the pot, and here I thought I was bad, Please tell us Scott how is she going to save us and hold on a minute, a thought is coming, AT THIS POINT WHAT DOES IT REALLY MATTER.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 27, 2014, 07:38:27 AM
Who is going to save us from the Hilary?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 27, 2014, 07:41:40 AM
Neal why dont you go back and read the post I originally disagreed with Homerglide on, he said when we talk politics we lose 50% of our credibility and I said that's BS so of course I'm going to side with slim,  I agree with slims views.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 27, 2014, 07:47:26 AM
It's all about conversation guys, if we don't exchange viewpoints then who will, we will all just succumb to the national press to make up our minds for us, I think we all know where that will get us, point is, talk to your neighbors, family friends and most of all our youth, don't be afraid to argue your points.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 27, 2014, 08:31:33 AM
Anyone who thinks Hilary could help anything is crazzzzzzyyyy
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 27, 2014, 04:26:45 PM
Anyone who thinks Hilary could help anything is crazzzzzzyyyy
Both sides short lists don't have anyone that is going to help.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 27, 2014, 06:00:14 PM
RAND PAUL 2016 A REAL ALTERNATIVE!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 27, 2014, 06:06:48 PM
RAND PAUL 2016 A REAL ALTERNATIVE!!!!!!!!!

yes sir
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 27, 2014, 06:11:06 PM
That is just it Neal, you are thinking 2 dimensionally, I live in the 3rd dimension, put a true Libertarian in the White House with some real patriots in congress and see what happens, hasn't been done in a long time, might be worth a try!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 27, 2014, 06:28:11 PM
Sure couldn't hurt!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 27, 2014, 08:20:18 PM
RAND PAUL 2016 A REAL ALTERNATIVE!!!!!!!!!
Not really, he is too radical on education, weak on same sex marriage, and overzealous on immigration.

He isn't too far off the mark of a standard Republican, however he is about the best that party will be able to put up.

Neal

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 27, 2014, 08:28:31 PM
That is just it Neal, you are thinking 2 dimensionally, I live in the 3rd dimension, put a true Libertarian in the White House with some real patriots in congress and see what happens, hasn't been done in a long time, might be worth a try!
I'd be for a sensible Libertarian.  Someone close to Gary Johnson would be intriguing.  I though he was the best Republican option last election.

The only real issues I have with Libertarian stance is the need to slash every aspect of federal government.  I believe we need strong education, science, and technology positions in our federal government.  These ideas are usually left unresolved or entirely opposed by Libertarians.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 28, 2014, 04:01:07 AM
Neal, Do you really think that public education works? seriously? In my neck of the woods privately educated and home schooled children are the smartest of the bunch while public schooled are NITWITS that can't even write a sentence down on paper that a normal person can read. They also have very little ability to figure things out on their own. I have raised 4 now, I do have an Idea what they did in public school and they would have been far better educated at private school or home schooled but we simply could not afford it because my wife and I have always had to work outside the home to pay the taxes that support the public schools. A little competition there would be a driver in education in my opinion. I DID VOTE for GARY JOHNSON!!!!!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 28, 2014, 05:37:37 AM
The trouble is over the years the federal government has become so bloated. Now when anyone talks about cutting back, we think the world is coming to the end. I agree with Slim about Ran Paul in the White House, but unless we get rid of most of those old lifer coots he will be fighting a uphill battle.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 28, 2014, 05:42:17 AM
Like John Mccain!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 28, 2014, 05:46:11 AM
He calls himself a Republican, but I don't think he knows what he is. He reminds me of wolf in sheep's clothing.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 28, 2014, 05:48:30 AM
"I'm a Maverick" remember hearing that saying over and over again?
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 28, 2014, 05:48:37 AM
Education from the govt is a freakin joke, unless u like ur college grads working in fast food as they do now

Its failed in every apsect,  u take some kid, tell him his whole life if he goes to college he wont have to work as hard as his parents and grandparents.  Soo, he gets some piddly piece of paper in something he doesnt care about then refuses to work because he has a piece of paper that makes him feel smart or perhaps privileged

The truly intuitive minds often have to take there own paths, ouside normal public education.

think about how stupid this is, in high school we learn about crap like Pythagorean theorem, proofs, who knows what else I learned only long enough to pass a test.  They however didnt teach things like balancing checkbooks, taxes, how to properly read a Damn tape measure, it was a total waste of time.  None of it involved real life
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 28, 2014, 05:49:40 AM
"I'm a Maverick" remember hearing that saying over and over again?

John McCain is an idiot
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 28, 2014, 05:50:48 AM
 :post: Scott
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 28, 2014, 05:52:08 AM
#1 he IS a war monger! Just imagine the money he generates for himself and his buddies with the blood of our fellow human beings, how would you like to be in his shoes the day he meets his maker.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 28, 2014, 05:54:00 AM
I wouldnt want to! I couldn't stand him as well just that saying drove me crazy!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 28, 2014, 06:34:56 AM
Neal, Do you really think that public education works? seriously? In my neck of the woods privately educated and home schooled children are the smartest of the bunch while public schooled are NITWITS that can't even write a sentence down on paper that a normal person can read. They also have very little ability to figure things out on their own. I have raised 4 now, I do have an Idea what they did in public school and they would have been far better educated at private school or home schooled but we simply could not afford it because my wife and I have always had to work outside the home to pay the taxes that support the public schools. A little competition there would be a driver in education in my opinion. I DID VOTE for GARY JOHNSON!!!!!!!
Of course public education works, there is no question that it does.  Is it far from ideal, most certainly.  And that is mainly due to poor attitude and asumptions like the one you carry. 

Do you have a link or some proof of the smartest claim?

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 28, 2014, 06:35:49 AM
The trouble is over the years the federal government has become so bloated. Now when anyone talks about cutting back, we think the world is coming to the end. I agree with Slim about Ran Paul in the White House, but unless we get rid of most of those old lifer coots he will be fighting a uphill battle.
It has been bloating for decades and will take decades to debloat.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 28, 2014, 11:54:51 AM
My wife working in a credit union for thirty years with attest to people not being to balance a check book Scott.  Has anybody thought of high schools to teach trades. The buildings are there, why not. Not everyone is going to be able to get a college degree.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 28, 2014, 02:58:15 PM
Should there be a course in high school these days called Common sense? I think so!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 28, 2014, 03:44:57 PM
I like Rand Paul, at least he is honest and not afraid of being un-politically correct.

I'd vote for Rick Perry or Scott Walker over Rand to be perfectly honest. Why? Just look at Texas or Wisconsin. Especially Wisconsin before Walker and now.

Wash my mouth out with soap, but I'm almost glad McCain didn't win, the alternative certainly isn't better of course. But at least conservatives don't have to deal with the stain of McCain as president.

All the republican party has to do to become completely irrelevant for a few more decades is run another Bush.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 28, 2014, 05:00:50 PM
Yeah Buddy!!!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 28, 2014, 05:33:55 PM
I think Rand Paul would be even more perfect if he had a better plan to fix our unfixable education system, as well as develop a firm plan against same sex marriages.
Can you believe that some imbreds actually believe that passing out birth control to teens is a positive means to prevent unwanted births?

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 28, 2014, 05:46:27 PM
I think Rand Paul would be even more perfect if he had a better plan to fix our unfixable education system, as well as develop a firm plan against same sex marriages.
Can you believe that some imbreds actually believe that passing out birth control to teens is a positive means to prevent unwanted births?

I just dont feel the govt needs to be involved in so many aspects.   It used to get me riled up over same sex marriage, but now I say, well, thats the least of our probs, if they wAnna marry a rock just say ok to save argument lol
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 28, 2014, 06:10:59 PM
How about the federal government just oversee's the states and lets them govern themselves? As long as the states dont do anything against the constitution the federal government keeps their big nose out of it? Then if you dont like the way your state handles things vote in someone who will handle things the way you like or move to a different state. The United STATES has become the Federal Government. It all comes down to POWER and MONEY! BIG government BIG spending and a LOT of people getting rich! How much of every dollar comes from China and other countries (that we end up giving a lot of to other countries) then we divide up the rest for crap like cow farts ect? How much money do we print a day? How much money do we spend a day? I Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I forgot... we need BIG government to hold our hands and tell us how to live! They will keep us safe! I know I feel better knowing they are there doing what they do!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 28, 2014, 07:23:25 PM
I think Rand Paul would be even more perfect if he had a better plan to fix our unfixable education system, as well as develop a firm plan against same sex marriages.
Can you believe that some imbreds actually believe that passing out birth control to teens is a positive means to prevent unwanted births?
Not doing so is idiotic.  If one has a teenage daughter and doesn't have a conversation about them being on birth control, they are foolish.

As for same sex marriages, this is the biggest dumb position the GOP holds to.  GTF out of individuals bedrooms.    How anyone can say they are for individual liberties and then oppose same sex marriage is complete hypocrisy.

These are not directly at you, simply my comments on the topics you brought forth.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 28, 2014, 07:27:32 PM
I think Rand Paul would be even more perfect if he had a better plan to fix our unfixable education system, as well as develop a firm plan against same sex marriages.
Can you believe that some imbreds actually believe that passing out birth control to teens is a positive means to prevent unwanted births?
Not doing so is idiotic.  If one has a teenage daughter and doesn't have a conversation about them being on birth control for latter middle school and all high school, they are foolish.

As for same sex marriages, this is the biggest dumb position the GOP holds to.  GTF out of individuals bedrooms.    How anyone can say they are for individual liberties and then oppose same sex marriage is complete hypocrisy.

These are not directly at you, simply my comments on the topics you brought forth.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 28, 2014, 10:07:18 PM
I think Rand Paul would be even more perfect if he had a better plan to fix our unfixable education system, as well as develop a firm plan against same sex marriages.
Can you believe that some imbreds actually believe that passing out birth control to teens is a positive means to prevent unwanted births?
Not doing so is idiotic.  If one has a teenage daughter and doesn't have a conversation about them being on birth control, they are foolish.

As for same sex marriages, this is the biggest dumb position the GOP holds to.  GTF out of individuals bedrooms.    How anyone can say they are for individual liberties and then oppose same sex marriage is complete hypocrisy.

These are not directly at you, simply my comments on the topics you brought forth.   :thumbup:

Neal

Exactly, what two adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is entirely up to them.

Let the states decide what is marriage. Live in a state that doesn't allow same sex marriage? Then move. It's called voting with your feet.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ELVIS1 on April 29, 2014, 01:48:42 AM
I think Americans needs to quit focusing on these little issues. I don't understand how people are more upset over a person's sexuality but than find it ok that congress gets paid off by super pacs to right bills that only favor corporate profits. Quit being led by news that keeps you focused on obtuse issues. The constitution made America great maybe we should focus on following that again instead.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 29, 2014, 03:12:52 AM
I think Americans needs to quit focusing on these little issues. I don't understand how people are more upset over a person's sexuality but than find it ok that congress gets paid off by super pacs to right bills that only favor corporate profits. Quit being led by news that keeps you focused on obtuse issues. The constitution made America great maybe we should focus on following that again instead.
    Amen. :thumbup:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 04:16:21 AM
I think Americans needs to quit focusing on these little issues. I don't understand how people are more upset over a person's sexuality but than find it ok that congress gets paid off by super pacs to right bills that only favor corporate profits. Quit being led by news that keeps you focused on obtuse issues. The constitution made America great maybe we should focus on following that again instead.
No being able to marry whom you wish isn't really a little issue...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 04:22:10 AM
I think Americans needs to quit focusing on these little issues. I don't understand how people are more upset over a person's sexuality but than find it ok that congress gets paid off by super pacs to right bills that only favor corporate profits. Quit being led by news that keeps you focused on obtuse issues. The constitution made America great maybe we should focus on following that again instead.
No being able to marry whom you wish isn't really a little issue...

Neal
I believe in the current time frame there are plenty of other things to worry about.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 29, 2014, 04:25:35 AM
How in the world did we get from the EPA to Gay marriage, by the way, Marry whomever you like in my opinion but you should not be allowed to sue a church for not marrying you because they do not subscribe to your views, You cannot gain Liberty by stealing it from somebody else!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 04:30:15 AM
Haha I am not sure when the topic turned to gay marriage its allowed in my state and it does not affect me.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 07:51:37 AM
I think Americans needs to quit focusing on these little issues. I don't understand how people are more upset over a person's sexuality but than find it ok that congress gets paid off by super pacs to right bills that only favor corporate profits. Quit being led by news that keeps you focused on obtuse issues. The constitution made America great maybe we should focus on following that again instead.
No being able to marry whom you wish isn't really a little issue...

Neal
I believe in the current time frame there are plenty of other things to worry about.
Not if you are in a position where you are barred from marrying/unionizing with whomever you like...

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 07:57:34 AM
How in the world did we get from the EPA to Gay marriage, by the way, Marry whomever you like in my opinion but you should not be allowed to sue a church for not marrying you because they do not subscribe to your views, You cannot gain Liberty by stealing it from somebody else!
Churches should not have any bearing on legal matters of marriage at all.

It's a simple fix, marriage in a legal sense should be a contract between two consenting adults.  Churches can have any kind of ceremony they want.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 29, 2014, 10:38:42 AM
The train has left the track.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: jcc273 on April 29, 2014, 10:55:50 AM
Hahaha i love how these political threads usually get so off track : ).

It is usually Neal against the world!

I think the government needs to stop trying to be people's "mothers" and worry about running the country.  If i want to get married to 10 women and 5 men then what business is it of theirs? Or if i am a pastor and don't want to marry gay couples because i don't agree then that should be my right according to my freedom of belief. Or if i want to drink a 64-oz soda that's my concern.  And if i want to smoke 2 cartons of cigarettes a day then more power to me!  In fact the last 2 would most likely make me die sooner lightening the burden i would impose on society as an old man on social security and medicare.

They should focus on running an effective country, not people's lives.  Obviously that means restricting liberties in some ways when they clearly violate the liberties and well being of other's, but personal choices should be left up to the individual.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 29, 2014, 11:21:24 AM
Like I said.. as long as the states dont go against the constitution...... Let them govern themselves.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 02:01:36 PM
Hahaha i love how these political threads usually get so off track : ).

It is usually Neal against the world!

I think the government needs to stop trying to be people's "mothers" and worry about running the country.  If i want to get married to 10 women and 5 men then what business is it of theirs? Or if i am a pastor and don't want to marry gay couples because i don't agree then that should be my right according to my freedom of belief. Or if i want to drink a 64-oz soda that's my concern.  And if i want to smoke 2 cartons of cigarettes a day then more power to me!  In fact the last 2 would most likely make me die sooner lightening the burden i would impose on society as an old man on social security and medicare.

They should focus on running an effective country, not people's lives.  Obviously that means restricting liberties in some ways when they clearly violate the liberties and well being of other's, but personal choices should be left up to the individual.
I've got lots of work to do!  haha

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 29, 2014, 02:43:20 PM

Not if you are in a position where you are barred from marrying/unionizing with whomever you like...

Neal
[/quote]

Yeah, you're right again, as always Neal. ::)
Perhaps we ought to be fighting for the right to....marry our animals? Can't be nuttin' wrong with a little beastiality.
Or....maybe marry our children? Pedophilia would be the next logical step, right? Or should that be before the animal thang?
Marrying/unionizing with whomever and whatever you like, right?

The point I'm trying to get across to you is this:
You, Neal Mastel, can be as flaming gay as you want to be. I think it's disgusting, but what you and your adult boyfriend do in the privacy of your home is not my business.
It becomes my business when you demand that our school systems teach that your lifestyle is somehow normal and should be accepted and taught as such.
Reading the crap that you type (other than your homosexual lifestyle stuff) reminds me a little bit of me when I was in my late teems and early 20's. I used to be a little (Gulping noises inserted here) liberal in my thinking. Even partially bought into the Global Warming hoax when it was in it's infancy.
I grew out of that stage, but alienated a few folks in the process.
You can grow up too.
Simply look at this life without blinders and you'll see it for what it's supposed to be.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 03:28:04 PM
 :post:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: ijon on April 29, 2014, 05:24:16 PM
Double that. :post: :post:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 29, 2014, 05:51:02 PM
Double that. :post: :post:

 :post: :post: :post:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 07:50:47 PM
Yeah, you're right again, as always Neal. ::)
Perhaps we ought to be fighting for the right to....marry our animals? Can't be nuttin' wrong with a little beastiality.
Or....maybe marry our children? Pedophilia would be the next logical step, right? Or should that be before the animal thang?
Marrying/unionizing with whomever and whatever you like, right?

The point I'm trying to get across to you is this:
You, Neal Mastel, can be as flaming gay as you want to be. I think it's disgusting, but what you and your adult boyfriend do in the privacy of your home is not my business.
It becomes my business when you demand that our school systems teach that your lifestyle is somehow normal and should be accepted and taught as such.
Reading the crap that you type (other than your homosexual lifestyle stuff) reminds me a little bit of me when I was in my late teems and early 20's. I used to be a little (Gulping noises inserted here) liberal in my thinking. Even partially bought into the Global Warming hoax when it was in it's infancy.
I grew out of that stage, but alienated a few folks in the process.
You can grow up too.
Simply look at this life without blinders and you'll see it for what it's supposed to be.
There is quite a significant difference between two consenting adults and two non-consensual beings.  That pokes holes in your beastiality & child marriages.  Your arguments are lame, and disconnected with reality.

Although I am not gay, I certainly agree with your premise that consensual adults may do whatever they wish in their home.  That makes perfect sense, our personal preferences aside. 

It becomes everyone's business when dealing with it in our school systems. 

I subscribe to neither liberal nor conservative thinking, but my own thinking, as far as your global warming beliefs, if you classify "growing up" as the ability to ignore factual data then I have zero problems remaining a child forever.

It is quite clear to me you are the one with blinders, you willfully ignore facts, and seem not only complacent in being so, but wilfully giddy in doing so.  I have no problem accepting enlightened childhood over being an ignorant old man, as it were, and I pity you.   :thumbup:

Neal

Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 08:26:57 PM
Neal,

So you join this forum not because you are interested in outdoor boilers but you  just like to stir the pot .  I think you would be better off banging your head some where else.   :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :o
Ahhh, I had many questions and comments well before the off-topic stuff began.  Didn't bother to read what I have posted I see.  (http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/c-n.gif)

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: martyinmi on April 29, 2014, 08:31:15 PM
http://newsbusters.org/forums/topic-discussion/leading-gay-activst-frank-kameny-says-bestiality-ok-long-animal-doesnt-mind (http://newsbusters.org/forums/topic-discussion/leading-gay-activst-frank-kameny-says-bestiality-ok-long-animal-doesnt-mind)

There are hundreds and hundreds of articles like this one out there.

The "difference between two consenting adults and two non-consensual beings" isn't nearly as significant as you and yours would have us believe, is it?

Let me reply to this for you already, Neal:

Rubbish. Utter nonsense.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/01/hope-and-change-are-you-ready-for-international-beastiality-rights-day-feb-1st-2014-2886566.html (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/01/hope-and-change-are-you-ready-for-international-beastiality-rights-day-feb-1st-2014-2886566.html)

 
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 08:51:29 PM
Guys we have to remember Neal is an engineer :o No offense to anyone else!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 08:52:22 PM
http://newsbusters.org/forums/topic-discussion/leading-gay-activst-frank-kameny-says-bestiality-ok-long-animal-doesnt-mind (http://newsbusters.org/forums/topic-discussion/leading-gay-activst-frank-kameny-says-bestiality-ok-long-animal-doesnt-mind)

There are hundreds and hundreds of articles like this one out there.

The "difference between two consenting adults and two non-consensual beings" isn't nearly as significant as you and yours would have us believe, is it?

Let me reply to this for you already, Neal:

Rubbish. Utter nonsense.
Hundreds and hundreds is what is complete rubbish and utter nonsense.  There are fringe folks who think that we are marching to bestiality as accepted sexual practice.  There is nothing to indicate that at all.  It's plain silly.  It's like the young earth creationists nuts encompassing Christianity.  It is simply goofy and not accurate.  There are even fewer who are trying to promote bestiality acceptance.  The same sex marriage leading to or forcibly promoting human-animal marriage is faulty logic-strawman argument.

Of course it is significant.  Without ample explanation of understanding and consensuality it isn't ok.  This is quite clear as there is no legitimate push for human-animal marriage, however we have, as a society nearly completely have come to accept homosexual marriage. 

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 08:53:56 PM
Guys we have to remember Neal is an engineer :o No offense to anyone else!
Nothing wrong with being an engineer.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 08:57:41 PM
The only problem with engineers is that most think they know everything and everyone should think like they do and can't understand why everyone doesn't think like they do. They think every problem is solvable.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 09:01:01 PM
The only problem with engineers is that most think they know everything and everyone should think like they do and can't understand why everyone doesn't think like they do. They think every problem is solvable.
There are very few problems that are not solvable.

FYI, even though my present employed (and past employment) title(s) state "engineer", I do not hold a P.E.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 09:03:40 PM
Only giving you a hard time Neal that's been my experience with them doing commercial HVAC.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 29, 2014, 09:10:45 PM
Only giving you a hard time Neal that's been my experience with them doing commercial HVAC.
As it happens my job entails fairly intricate knowledge with 15-20 ton HVAC units.  I am usually skeptical of the dispatched journeyman HVAC field guys that seem to have questionable credentials or knowledge given years of service.  I even had one ask me the purpose of the VFD for the system once.   :bash:

Pinning a position solely on education, or even field experience is questionable IMO.

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 09:17:47 PM
Yes I get where you are coming from but there are also engineers that don't have the field experience to get the concept that some designs don't always go according to plan.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 29, 2014, 09:24:47 PM
Yes I get where you are coming from but there are also engineers that don't have the field experience to get the concept that some designs don't always go according to plan.


Most, but def not all engineers I have met can tell you all about how everything should work, but for some reason the tools to do the job dont fit there hands....

Had one guy once who was an engineer for marathon petroleum who was gonna help me install as part of his deal, poor guy couldnt figure out how to use a ratchet, no joke
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 29, 2014, 09:31:41 PM
I'd say that's very accurate Scott!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 29, 2014, 10:47:08 PM
Yes I get where you are coming from but there are also engineers that don't have the field experience to get the concept that some designs don't always go according to plan.


Most, but def not all engineers I have met can tell you all about how everything should work, but for some reason the tools to do the job dont fit there hands....

Had one guy once who was an engineer for marathon petroleum who was gonna help me install as part of his deal, poor guy couldnt figure out how to use a ratchet, no joke

HAHAHA.

I have an uncle that worked for Ford as an engineer, then got his degree in aerospace, worked for Bell helicopter and now Sikorsky. He literally cannot change a flat tire, he'll sit on the side of the road for hours waiting on AAA. This was even before he started college. Same guy that couldn't figure out why CFL's kept burning up in touch lamps. After I pointed out that it said right on the package Do Not use with Dimmer, his reply was that he isn't, there touch lamps.

Neighbor directly behind me used to be an engineer for Bendix aircraft division, thought he might get his skid steer stuck in the lane feeding horses so the idjit tried to go across a freshly planted hayfield instead.

I've known several engineers over the years, other than a very narrow specific field a larger percentage than not are worthless as tits on a boar hog. No offense Neil.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 30, 2014, 05:34:05 AM
Its def not all engineers but some of them take the cake
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: PitMan on April 30, 2014, 09:58:07 AM
 ;)
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: NaturallyAspirated on April 30, 2014, 10:01:00 AM
;)
Corporations wouldn't like that government style one bit. 

I'm a fan.   :thumbup:

Neal
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: jcc273 on April 30, 2014, 11:32:12 AM
Quote
HAHAHA.

I have an uncle that worked for Ford as an engineer, then got his degree in aerospace, worked for Bell helicopter and now Sikorsky. He literally cannot change a flat tire, he'll sit on the side of the road for hours waiting on AAA. This was even before he started college. Same guy that couldn't figure out why CFL's kept burning up in touch lamps. After I pointed out that it said right on the package Do Not use with Dimmer, his reply was that he isn't, there touch lamps.

Neighbor directly behind me used to be an engineer for Bendix aircraft division, thought he might get his skid steer stuck in the lane feeding horses so the idjit tried to go across a freshly planted hayfield instead.

I've known several engineers over the years, other than a very narrow specific field a larger percentage than not are worthless as tits on a boar hog. No offense Neil.

Those things have nothing to do with what you do for a living.  I think the point your trying to make is book smarts do not equal common sense or street smarts.  If you are book smart you can go to school and become whatever, you can learn all the ends and outs of a subject and be an expert on the theory behind it.  Does it mean you can apply these concepts in the field?  No you were simply trained on the subject matter.  Stereotyping "Engineers" as a group that only know how things should work with no practical knowledge is absurd. 

First off there are tons of different types of engineers out there you don't just focus on engineering it is way to broad.  I am an Embedded Design Engineer and design circuit boards, write the software for the microprocessor, support manufacturing of the boards, and support issues in the fields.  I am the designer and i know the full ins and outs of how my design works.  I don't build the board because we have trained and experience solder and electronic techs who are amazing at it and that is what they do.  If there is a problem with a part they will fix it, if there is a wiring issue in the field they will fix it, If the device isn't doing what it is supposed to do then I will figure out why and fix it.  Everyone has there area of expertise, and that is how an efficient business works.  I could do the soldering and wiring but it would take me way longer and look a lot messier because i don't do it on a daily basis.  You talk like the title of Engineer should make you an expert on everything.

The examples you gave of your uncle and neighbor have nothing to do with their fields.  They just prove that neither one has any common sense and your uncle chose not to learn to change his own flat.

The stuff you are talking about "engineers" not being able to do is stuff you have to learn like anything else in life, it doesn't just come naturally because you aren't an engineer.  I can change my tires, replace a transmission, cut wood, grow a small garden, build a garage, install plumbing, install wiring, and fix about anything that moves.  There is also plenty i don't know how to do, for example farming.  I love the idea of farming and have slowly been learning more and more for example just got a flock of chickens but i didn't grow up on a farm or have anyone to teach me so it is something i have to lean through experience as i get older.  Being able to do these things has nothing to do with being an Engineer, they are things i took the time to learn to do myself by trial and error or from my father.  I must admit there is a mindset that goes along with doing the types of tasks you describe.  If you have that mindset you are likely to learn them and do them yourself, but not everyone does in which case they focus their thoughts and learning on other areas and that is fine.  We all learn what we choose to learn.  I know plenty of engineers who can all do this stuff and plenty who can't.  I also know plenty of people who work all kinds of other jobs and there are lots who can do this stuff and lots who can't.  So your generalization is absurd.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 30, 2014, 01:20:36 PM
Good point jcc273, however I think the conversation was not aimed at all engineers, I too find it difficult sometimes to communicate with highly educated folks, doesn't mean that I won't try but sometimes folks tend to overthink things a bit and Engineers are famous for it in my book, To most of us burning wood comes very naturally, most engineers overthink it.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Scott7m on April 30, 2014, 01:25:00 PM
I think it was clearly stated enough that it was not all engineers.  There are good ones and bad as with any other profession.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 30, 2014, 01:55:06 PM
Well said Slim and Scott  :post:
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: jcc273 on April 30, 2014, 04:01:31 PM
Quote
I think it was clearly stated enough that it was not all engineers.  There are good ones and bad as with any other profession

In the comment i was responding too i believe it was clearly stated as:

Quote
I've known several engineers over the years, other than a very narrow specific field a larger percentage than not are worthless as tits on a boar hog. No offense

I was not talking about any other comment.  The rest may have clearly stated that but he clearly stated that he thought most are that way.  If he meant everyone he should have said that.

Lumping people in groups by any means is ridiculous, and i personally do not appreciate being rolled into a group and considered "worthless as tits on a boar hog".  That's all I'm saying.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 30, 2014, 04:07:49 PM
  As an engineer, how do like your Hardy, do you appreciate the value added to your lifestyle by burning wood for heating purposes.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: mlappin on April 30, 2014, 05:22:02 PM
Common sense, if a person has it no need to be taught how to change a flat tire. If they have it then they'd never drive across fresh worked dirt instead of a lane thats been packed down for fifty years.

If things were designed with a little more common sense a lot of us would have a much easier time repairing it later when the time comes.

I deal with stuff daily that if a little more common sense was used in the design of it, it'd be much more reliable, much easier to fix and wouldn't take half a day to get it apart.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on April 30, 2014, 05:45:25 PM
I would have to agree with you 100 percent on that one, this happens to be one of those nitch areas that we as the commoners can feed the engineers a bit of real life, in the field experience, if we don't alienate one another in the process and the engineers will listen, Lets build the whole Idea of wood for fuel/ heat together.
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: Jwood on April 30, 2014, 06:26:50 PM
I would have to agree with you 100 percent on that one, this happens to be one of those nitch areas that we as the commoners can feed the engineers a bit of real life, in the field experience, if we don't alienate one another in the process and the engineers will listen, Lets build the whole Idea of wood for fuel/ heat together.

Sounds Good!
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: jcc273 on May 01, 2014, 10:56:58 AM
Quote
As an engineer, how do like your Hardy, do you appreciate the value added to your lifestyle by burning wood for heating purposes.

I like the boiler alot : ).  We always burnt wood for heat growing up but always with an indoor wood furnace.  When i bought my current house the previous owner had died in a car accident and the house (and hardy) had just sat unused through the winter : /.  As far as i know the boiler has been there since the house's construction in '86 as there was no other heat source in the house whatsoever.  I had 0 experience with these systems, so i figured i had my work cut out for me getting her running again.  This forum was very instrumental in helping me achieve just that : ).  People were able to answer all the questions i had about what i didn't know, which allowed me to get it fixed rather easily : ).

I was very impressed how well the tank and firebox had held up!  I pretty much just had to replace a bunch of plumbing, the pump, switches, valves, and blower and give her a good cleaning and flush and she has run like a champ ever since : ).  I love the cheap heat, hot water, and not having to haul wood indoors : ).

I love coming to this forum often because i always learn something new about them : ).
Title: Re: our wood stoves are horrible but epa thinks this is fine
Post by: slimjim on May 01, 2014, 11:00:12 AM
AWESOME!!!!!!!