Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Mr. Maple on March 09, 2014, 08:51:59 AM
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Hello everyone, after much researching here and other sites, much reading and internet surfing I have narrowed my choice down for replacing our aging Empyre furnace to two choices-Portage and Main gasification units or Central Boiler gasification units. Our Empyre is the 450 deluxe, 11 going on 12 years old. It has been a good furnace, but I know now that there are better choices for efficiency, etc now than there was when we bought it. The furnace is rated for 8000 square feet, holds 300 gallons of water
My Central Boiler dealer is recommending the E classic 3200 for our situation, two older farmhouses, heated garage/workshop. I went to visit a neighbor the other day that has this model and just loves it. he uses it year round to even heat his milk house water. He tells me that he loads it once daily in the winter, every two days spring and fall, and every 4 days in the summer. Our Central Boiler dealer is about 40 minutes away.
The Portage and Main unit I am looking at would be the BL3848. I have to yet find someone nearby that has one of these to compare and speak to the owner about performance/satisfaction.
Here is the big question I have about making the final decision-Central Boiler has a much higher water jacket, and slightly higher BTU output(according to the manufacturer) , with the Portage and Main the water jacket is much smaller leading to potentially faster recovery times. Is it better to go with higher capacity or faster recovery?
What I like about the CB also is the spray foamed insulation, we had our basement and garage done, if I were to build a new house it would be done from top to bottom and everything in between. What I don't like is not having an ash pan to haul the ashes out like we have always done with our Empyre. The Portage and Main apparently has little to no ashes? This is only what I have heard as I have not yet seen one in operation or found out anymore details as of yet.
Two other notes to consider-CB dealer 40 minutes away, P& M dealer one hour 45 minutes away. What I am looking for is most efficient I can get, with longest burn times, I don't mind using more or less wood each loading, as long as it works out to using the lesser amount of wood over the entire heating season
Thanks in advance for the help
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I don't have experience with either one of these units, but from what I can gather is that they are both top notch stoves. Either one will make you happy that you bought it. At that point it all comes down to the dealer. Does one just want to make the sell and not stand by the product they sell if something should go wrong? I don't know about your dealers but I do know that Slimjim, is a P&M rep, and has gone above and beyond to help people on here. Even those who have bought a different brand stoves. I do not know of a CB dealer or rep on here, but there are some very knowledgeable owners, who are equally as passionate about their stoves.
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From how I understand it I wouldn't be worried about distance from a dealer if you went with P&M, all components are off the shelf and should be able to be bought at any well supplied HVAC store or WWGrainger even.
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New member here, long time wood burner.
I too am going to be in the market for a new stove this year as mine just started leaking this week, a pro steel that is 12 yrs old and ss, so after reading all the posts about ss I think that with 12 yrs on the unit I was lucky to get that long.
I did alot of reading the last week and would be concerned with the spray foam insulation, as if you do get a pin hole the water stays in that area and corrodes olot bigger area. Also have talked to the p7m dealer and figured out that I dont need a gassifier for my situation along with all the extra maintainance associated with it and the need to have a more perfect wood source.
I also can cay that in the last week I have inquired through the internet on 5 different brands and ONLY the p7m dealer was the ONLY 1 to call me back, and that was within 2 hrs of the internet request.
I ahve not personally tried c b as several opf my neighbors have them, one had a ss model and had leakes in the first season, altho the gave him a new fire box he had to have his son do all the work on it, upun inspaetion of the failed unit it was determined that altho the steel was ss tha welds were not ss, so the failure.
I am still undecided but leaning very heavy twords the p&m unit.
Thanks fort this site I just found the other day, has alot of good info
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Mr. Maple,
The P and M BL 3848 is not a gasser, but should do the trick for you. SlimJim will be able to give you more info on that boiler.
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For quality and performance between these two, I would put my money on the P&M all day and twice on sunday
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Thanks for the comments guys, if there are any further questions please feel free, I had a busy day yesterday and did not get to reply to this, sorry, I guess you guys handled it well without me, Thank you.
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New member here, long time wood burner.
I too am going to be in the market for a new stove this year as mine just started leaking this week, a pro steel that is 12 yrs old and ss, so after reading all the posts about ss I think that with 12 yrs on the unit I was lucky to get that long.
I did alot of reading the last week and would be concerned with the spray foam insulation, as if you do get a pin hole the water stays in that area and corrodes olot bigger area. Also have talked to the p7m dealer and figured out that I dont need a gassifier for my situation along with all the extra maintainance associated with it and the need to have a more perfect wood source.
I also can cay that in the last week I have inquired through the internet on 5 different brands and ONLY the p7m dealer was the ONLY 1 to call me back, and that was within 2 hrs of the internet request.
I ahve not personally tried c b as several opf my neighbors have them, one had a ss model and had leakes in the first season, altho the gave him a new fire box he had to have his son do all the work on it, upun inspaetion of the failed unit it was determined that altho the steel was ss tha welds were not ss, so the failure.
I am still undecided but leaning very heavy twords the p&m unit.
Thanks fort this site I just found the other day, has alot of good info
Please fill me in on the disadvantages of stainless steel? I know it's been a major marketing ploy from non stainless companies but in my personal experience I've not seen it be problematic in the least. Actually, manufacturers have corrected several issues by using stainless components. Even p and m
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I would agree with you there Scott, I think that a few manufacturers have screwed up the reputation of stainless by poor construction techniques, I know I worked with one of those companies and it certainly left a bad taste in my mouth, there are old stoves on both sides of the stainless debate that are still running today and they were built by reputable companies, I personally am wary of stainless but that is because of that companies poor knowledge of what they were working with and how to keep it from cracking, as a weekend fabricator I know I don't like to weld stainless, but I have never had any formal training on it either, If I had a stainless boiler that leaked I would more than likely not try repairing it myself but let a pro do the repairs instead.
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I would agree with you there Scott, I think that a few manufacturers have screwed up the reputation of stainless by poor construction techniques, I know I worked with one of those companies and it certainly left a bad taste in my mouth, there are old stoves on both sides of the stainless debate that are still running today and they were built by reputable companies, I personally am wary of stainless but that is because of that companies poor knowledge of what they were working with and how to keep it from cracking, as a weekend fabricator I know I don't like to weld stainless, but I have never had any formal training on it either, If I had a stainless boiler that leaked I would more than likely not try repairing it myself but let a pro do the repairs instead.
I've seen companies let poor quality control and poor design cause issues but it wasn't the materials fault. A bad design is a bad design no matter what material is being used, some may be more forgiving but if design is good, it will be great
I know how you take care of the steel prior to use is a huge issue as well, I know heatmaster is meticulous with how they take care of there rolls before it's ever used
As far as welding it, don't be afraid, just use er 409 in your mig and your good to go, you can also weld it with mild steel wire, but technically ur not supposed to but I've seen it done on 409 before with no issues
If it's a 304 stainless, different story and likely thinner material like the 1/16" fire boxes and jackets hardy uses
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Hello Sprinter,can you please specify why P & M,what do you not like about the CB? As far as the stainless goes, CB is also rolled steel like P & M now. I may be going to a farm Show this week where both brands are so I can compare apples to apples, but would rather hear from experience than salesmen, not meaning you SlimJim, look forward to your comments, but at the show I am sure both will have the best furnace and down play the other one.
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None taken, first I'm not a sales guy and second they have to make a living too, sure beats not working for a living, Farm show ? Dave is doing another one this week not sure where, if it's him there should be free beer!
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As someone who sells neither one, buy p and m
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New member here, long time wood burner.
I too am going to be in the market for a new stove this year as mine just started leaking this week, a pro steel that is 12 yrs old and ss, so after reading all the posts about ss I think that with 12 yrs on the unit I was lucky to get that long.
I did alot of reading the last week and would be concerned with the spray foam insulation, as if you do get a pin hole the water stays in that area and corrodes olot bigger area. Also have talked to the p7m dealer and figured out that I dont need a gassifier for my situation along with all the extra maintainance associated with it and the need to have a more perfect wood source.
I also can cay that in the last week I have inquired through the internet on 5 different brands and ONLY the p7m dealer was the ONLY 1 to call me back, and that was within 2 hrs of the internet request.
I ahve not personally tried c b as several opf my neighbors have them, one had a ss model and had leakes in the first season, altho the gave him a new fire box he had to have his son do all the work on it, upun inspaetion of the failed unit it was determined that altho the steel was ss tha welds were not ss, so the failure.
I am still undecided but leaning very heavy twords the p&m unit.
Thanks fort this site I just found the other day, has alot of good info
Please fill me in on the disadvantages of stainless steel? I know it's been a major marketing ploy from non stainless companies but in my personal experience I've not seen it be problematic in the least. Actually, manufacturers have corrected several issues by using stainless components. Even p and m
A few problems I've dealt with in the past with stainless was also due to poor design or the wrong stainless being used.
Stainless can also be a b*tch to weld over head or out of position.
Biggest concern I'd have on a non gasser stainless stove is that to keep it price competitive is they only use 10 gauge, which is fine if your very gentle in filling it, however I did see at a place that specializes in stainless welding and fabrication a stainless OWB that had the back so dented up from the owner (or his kids) chucking wood in that it failed. Being a gasifier uses smaller pieces and needs stacked carefully I would see the above mentioned being near the problem.
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Yea... but how about the tens of thousands of hardys out there with 16 Guage stainless,1/16 of an inch basically.
10 Guage compared to that is thick stuff, Empyre builds a deluxe model using 304 but keeps the thickness at 10 Guage vs 16 like the 304 hardy
I've just seen so many heatmasters that have had no issues it makes me really like it, but that's based primarily on my experience with heatmaster and nnot so much the other companies as I haven't had as much experience with them
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Empyre must have a good design the, after doing a lot of research if I was to use stainless it would be 409 for various reasons.
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Empyre must have a good design the, after doing a lot of research if I was to use stainless it would be 409 for various reasons.
It sure works well for Heatmaster
From my research I believe it's a good material to use as well
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Hello Sprinter,can you please specify why P & M,what do you not like about the CB? As far as the stainless goes, CB is also rolled steel like P & M now. I may be going to a farm Show this week where both brands are so I can compare apples to apples, but would rather hear from experience than salesmen, not meaning you SlimJim, look forward to your comments, but at the show I am sure both will have the best furnace and down play the other one.
In my opinion the centrals of today aren't as rugged or quality as those 8 or more years old. It seems that big company has taken the path to learn how to build its products cheaper. At the cost of quality welding, cheaper steel and tougher warranty process. They sell cause of all the bells and whistles, probably the best marketing in the industry and their history of having a very good product. Still even back in the day I would still say the P&M has always put out a higher quality product top to bottom. The scotch marine design is almost as old as Columbus' boat, because it works. Burn efficiency is one thing but overall thermal efficiency is more important. I know there are SS units out there that have some miles on them, but SS is NOT the best material to use for boilers. It doesn't transfer heat as well (11% when comparing similar thickness) and is susceptible to cracking no matter what grade it is.
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There you go bashing modern technology again. You go ahead and go to battle in your Christopher Columbus ship. I'll use todays nuclear aircraft carrier or destroyer, with radar and missiles. You can use your sails and cannon balls. You just said old technology is better. Oh and I'll take by truck down the road and we can race your horse and buggy, since old technology is better you've got to like your chances...Let's go a little more modern. I'll use air conditioning and you can roll your windows down. You've got to quit riding your modern technology is bad horse. Seriously, we already know you still prefer indoor wood stoves over the outdoor stoves. I'll use that indoor space for something else, while keeping the fire, dirt, bugs and mess outside. But that's just my choice as well.
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Boilerman, do you really need a hug or what, Your opinion is very valued here on the CB product line, just because Sprinter likes indoor boilers doesn't mean he's a bit demented, the man has numbers coming out of his head that neither of us understand, if we all work together we could help an awful lot of people gain energy independence, You and I have had our fair share of disagreements and so have Sprinter and I, you and I are simple, brand names, Sprinter and I, outside VS inside, we all have an opinion, someday if we are all lucky I'll convince you both, let's try to not be so angry all the time, ( MY WIFE TELLS ME THAT ALL THE TIME) can't we all just get along, (HUGS)
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SlimJim. I am in Canada, the farm show I am talking about is in Ottawa, about 1.25 hours from me. I tried contacting P&M but no one answered, will try again later. I am wondering about a dealer close to me, I am north of Kingston, Ontario, and especially individuals nearby that have P & M units that I can see in the field working. I have one major question on these two brands that I have narrowed my choice down to-not only wood size but wood length-how critical. I now have a gasification maple syrup evaporator, for which I needed to cut the wood longer than I used to so the wood covers the grates each load, otherwise the air will come through the grates at the easiest location where there is no wood, thereby less gasification and heat. I would rather not have to fight a large block of maple or oak onto the splitter, we still tend to cut our wood about 16-20 inches in length, would this be a problem with either of these furnaces?
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I think Brian is at that show right now, go and say Hi, ask him what he thinks, he talks funny, like he's from another country but all in all he's a great guy, stick around after the show and get to know him, I DID.
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Boilermans panties are awfully tight on his CB. I'm just saying on the last 10-12 CB jobs, I didn't see the customer support that a $11-$15k job deserves, and not one warranty case resolved without having to really squeak the wheel of the ones that did get resolved. I also think that the welding and metal thickness/quality is not what it used to be. Not when I'm seeing 15 year old CB's next door to a failed 4year old or two year old.
I'm just saying if we cut both of them in half and dissect them , more will prefer the P&M. And I did state it's my opinion. I also feel if we do weighted burns and throw an analyzer on them it would be a no brainer. But some still like fancy gadgets and gauges.
AND last but not least I will put any of my indoor models up against any CB. It truly would be an unfair challenge. It's amazing how those tiny little indoor models do the work of a giant CB even before storage. Thermal efficiency!!!!!!!!
Your more than welcome to document or post up some factual knowledge to discredit my opinion. Shouldn't be that hard since I just have an opinion.
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Update today on furnace selection, P & M is making it pretty easy to decide. I called head office over 3 weeks ago to inquire about which furnace to replace the Empyre with, where I could see one in action, and where a dealer would be close to me. I was told by the gentleman I was talking to that they would get right back to me. Guess what, haven't heard a word from them yet. I don't believe there is any excuse for this in business today. Another member from this forum sent me a private message with the name and number of a dealer 20 minutes away, so I phoned him 2 weeks ago with the same questions, guess what, NO response there either . I called him back last night to question why, told me he has been busy fielding other calls, do I not qualify as a potential customer or what? He gave me the number of a customer over 2 hours away that has the BL3444, upon speaking to him he gave me the generic answer of how happy he is with his choice, but also told me he has only had the furnace since Nov. 1, furnace was late in coming by 1 month and delivered in a snow storm with road salt all over it on an open trailer.
Any time I have spoken to the CB dealer, he has been quick to get back to me with any answers to my questions, I have spoken to a number of his clients, one told me last night that yes there had been some problems, but between the dealer and CB had been resolved very quickly. It makes me wonder just how eager P & M is to make the sale, and if there should be any problems would I be left out in the cold? P & M really needs to get their act together to be able to sell me on their unit
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I CALLED P & M 2 WEEKS AGO TO FIND OUT IF THEIR WAS A DEALER WITH IN A 100 MILES OF ME THEY SAID NO THAT IT WOULD BE BEST TO DEAL WITH THEM. THANKS TO ANOTHER MEMBER ON HERE THEY GAVE ME A DEALERS NUMBER THAT IS 75 MILES OF ME. I CALLED THEM BACK AND ASK THEM WHY THEY DIDN'T GIVE ME HIS NUMBER AND THEY NEVER GAVE ME A STRAIGHT ANSWER. I WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED THAT THEY DON'T CARE ENOUGH TO LOCATE A DEALER OR THAT THEY ARE JUST TRYING TO CUT HIM OUT OF THE LOOP
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Sure seems funny guys that I personally don't recall speaking with either of you, perhaps I did and don't recall, if so I do apologize, we have been very busy and may have slipped, not a normal year, rclay as far as local dealer, stocking dealers have a protected area of 50 miles or 1 hour, non stocking dealers are those that like to sell our units but invest little to nothing, please try to put yourself in corporate's position, whom do you suppose is going to take care of the customer, a person who invests in our product or a person who only wishes to cash in on the name brand, if you have an issue with contacting corporate or your local dealer please make me aware of your issue, I WILL TAKE CARE OF THE ISSUE!
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THAT MAKES SINCE SLIM THANKS FOR CLEARING IT UP FOR ME
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You are welcome!