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31
Plumbing / Re: other than Logstor, what are the next choices?
« on: January 16, 2015, 02:54:10 PM »[/quote]
What does he sell that stuff for per foot?
[/quote]
I bought mine through RSI (Phillip).
I don't remember what I paid for it....I think around $6.25-$6.50....not really sure.
I'm only about 80 or 90 miles from the factory, so I went and picked the 150' roll up as opposed to having it shipped.
I had the opportunity to talk to Jeff(Zsupply owner) for about a half hour or so before Phillip showed up.
You'd be hard pressed to ever speak to a more knowledgeable and honest professional in any business anywhere!
I think you can contact about any dealer anywhere and he can have Zsupply ship it to your location.
I'd definitely recommend Phillip(RSI on this forum).
It worked out really well for me when I picked mine up. Phillip happened to be having a meeting with Jeff that day, so I was able to meet him as well. I put as much faith in what he tells folks here as I do Slimjim!
32
Portage & Main / Re: ashes
« on: January 10, 2015, 04:43:36 PM »
I've not scooped any ash from mine at all during the last couple burn seasons.
I do do a thorough cleaning at seasons end, at which point coals get thrown out with the ash.
I just rake the firebox contents over the nozzle every time I load it(twice daily) in figure "X" push/pull motions. Takes less than a minute.
I also clean the secondary burn chamber 2x/week.
FYI-P&M does not recommend doing what I do, as they are afraid the nozzle opening will be damaged.
Since I have been using karlK's nozzles, fracturing does not appear to be an issue.
I do do a thorough cleaning at seasons end, at which point coals get thrown out with the ash.
I just rake the firebox contents over the nozzle every time I load it(twice daily) in figure "X" push/pull motions. Takes less than a minute.
I also clean the secondary burn chamber 2x/week.
FYI-P&M does not recommend doing what I do, as they are afraid the nozzle opening will be damaged.
Since I have been using karlK's nozzles, fracturing does not appear to be an issue.
33
Plumbing / Re: other than Logstor, what are the next choices?
« on: January 10, 2015, 04:05:14 PM »
I don't have experience with Logster or Rehau, so I won't comment on them.
I did use Thermopex for 6 or 7 years, and it was pretty good stuff.
Last spring I made the switch to Z-supply 5 wrap.
I really don't think that the top 3 foam insulated pex lines are as good as Z-supply's 5 wrap.
The reasons that the wrapped pipes transfer heat better are kinda hard to wrap(pun intended!)your head around at first, and I am a horrible communicator, so I won't even get in to them.
If you go to Z-supply's site and watch a couple of Jeff's videos, you'll quickly understand what I'm talking about. One of the things that really made me think(pertaining to heat loss/thermal transfer)was the emphasis on having a thermal break.
I won't bore any of you with my redneck experiments that I've done with both the Thermopex and the 5 wrap, but I will relay my findings of one said redneck experimentation:
In a 95' run(one way), my water temperature entering my home is almost exactly 1 degree hotter with the 5 wrap than with the Thermopex.
My water returning to the boiler is just shy of 2 degrees warmer now than what it was with the Thermopex.
I made the switch for a couple reasons.
1) I wanted to see if the wrap crowd (the folks who carry the better stuff that is manufactured like Z-supply's)were blowing smoke.
2) I had a buyer for my used Thermopex, so all the switch cost me was basically my labor.
Watch Jeff's video's when ya get a chance. You'll understand why less ($$$) is sometimes more!
I had one of my hvac friends help me do a simple heat GAIN calculation(simple for him anyways!) using the few variables that have changed in my system, as well as the ones that haven't(such as head, gpm).
Based on how much wood I consumed last year(around 8.5 full cords) and assuming my heat demand were the same this year, he figured I'd save somewhere between 1 and 2 full cords.
As always, your results may vary.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html
If you'd like some more good reading, read the thread I linked above and you'll have a better understanding as to why thermal breaks are so important in preventing thermal conductivity to the earth. Go to the 8th post on page 1, or the 5th page(last one in the thread) and scroll down to the 5th post.
I did use Thermopex for 6 or 7 years, and it was pretty good stuff.
Last spring I made the switch to Z-supply 5 wrap.
I really don't think that the top 3 foam insulated pex lines are as good as Z-supply's 5 wrap.
The reasons that the wrapped pipes transfer heat better are kinda hard to wrap(pun intended!)your head around at first, and I am a horrible communicator, so I won't even get in to them.
If you go to Z-supply's site and watch a couple of Jeff's videos, you'll quickly understand what I'm talking about. One of the things that really made me think(pertaining to heat loss/thermal transfer)was the emphasis on having a thermal break.
I won't bore any of you with my redneck experiments that I've done with both the Thermopex and the 5 wrap, but I will relay my findings of one said redneck experimentation:
In a 95' run(one way), my water temperature entering my home is almost exactly 1 degree hotter with the 5 wrap than with the Thermopex.
My water returning to the boiler is just shy of 2 degrees warmer now than what it was with the Thermopex.
I made the switch for a couple reasons.
1) I wanted to see if the wrap crowd (the folks who carry the better stuff that is manufactured like Z-supply's)were blowing smoke.
2) I had a buyer for my used Thermopex, so all the switch cost me was basically my labor.
Watch Jeff's video's when ya get a chance. You'll understand why less ($$$) is sometimes more!
I had one of my hvac friends help me do a simple heat GAIN calculation(simple for him anyways!) using the few variables that have changed in my system, as well as the ones that haven't(such as head, gpm).
Based on how much wood I consumed last year(around 8.5 full cords) and assuming my heat demand were the same this year, he figured I'd save somewhere between 1 and 2 full cords.
As always, your results may vary.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html
If you'd like some more good reading, read the thread I linked above and you'll have a better understanding as to why thermal breaks are so important in preventing thermal conductivity to the earth. Go to the 8th post on page 1, or the 5th page(last one in the thread) and scroll down to the 5th post.
34
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Strategy
« on: January 05, 2015, 04:07:59 PM »Am thinking my strategy for loading might be out the window with this cold snap coming.
Was 34 when i left for work and 13 when i got home.
It was 3*F this am and 8*F when I got home.
35
Plumbing / Re: Sidearm Install
« on: January 01, 2015, 09:22:28 AM »
I'd definitely use the pressure relief or the anode port.
I used the water inlet (cold water supply) on mine for about 6 or 7 years and it worked OK, but not great. I left the breaker for the water heater on because we would nearly run out of hot water after 1 shower or a couple loads of laundry.
Last spring break I made the switch to the PTR(Pressure/Temperature/Relief) port. It was a HUGE difference!
We've only ran out of hot water a few times this winter, but it's always been on Mondays when my wife is off. She takes a shower first thing then catches up on several loads of laundry. If she doesn't use her noggin', she will run out.
It used to take most of the day to heat up enough water to take a shower. Now it is just a matter of a few hours and it's warm enough.
Wood consumption also went up a little bit....enough to where it could actually be measured.
I think the reason that the anode or PTR locations work best is because there is either a very short pipe or none at all in those locations.
The cold water supply has a tube attached to it that directs incoming water toward the bottom of the heater.
I think the long tube in the supply port prevents proper thermo-siphoning.
The bottom of my heater never seemed to get warm(60-80 degrees).
Now it will get over 100 degrees.
Don't forget to re-install your PTR valve!
Edit: I just re-read Slim's post. He said in one sentence(the part about the dip tube) what it took me an entire paragraph to say!
I used the water inlet (cold water supply) on mine for about 6 or 7 years and it worked OK, but not great. I left the breaker for the water heater on because we would nearly run out of hot water after 1 shower or a couple loads of laundry.
Last spring break I made the switch to the PTR(Pressure/Temperature/Relief) port. It was a HUGE difference!
We've only ran out of hot water a few times this winter, but it's always been on Mondays when my wife is off. She takes a shower first thing then catches up on several loads of laundry. If she doesn't use her noggin', she will run out.
It used to take most of the day to heat up enough water to take a shower. Now it is just a matter of a few hours and it's warm enough.
Wood consumption also went up a little bit....enough to where it could actually be measured.
I think the reason that the anode or PTR locations work best is because there is either a very short pipe or none at all in those locations.
The cold water supply has a tube attached to it that directs incoming water toward the bottom of the heater.
I think the long tube in the supply port prevents proper thermo-siphoning.
The bottom of my heater never seemed to get warm(60-80 degrees).
Now it will get over 100 degrees.
Don't forget to re-install your PTR valve!
Edit: I just re-read Slim's post. He said in one sentence(the part about the dip tube) what it took me an entire paragraph to say!
36
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Your senators and legislators should watch this!
« on: January 01, 2015, 06:36:19 AM »
Very good discussion going on here! Meetings like these need to be happening EVERYWHERE in the U.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqgE5TjVvA4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqgE5TjVvA4
37
Portage & Main / Re: Creosote problem
« on: December 31, 2014, 04:42:23 PM »
What you've experienced happens from time to time with almost every wood burning appliance when the conditions are right.
In the last 10 years, I've had 3 different OWB's sitting on my slab- first was home built, second was an Empyre Proseries 100 Gasser, and now my P&M 250. All three have produced fireballs. It is the nature of these beasts. Before them, I had a Consolidated Dutchwest Federal Airtight catalytic stove that would attempt to knock me over from time to time. About a half dozen of my neighbors have OWB's, and every one of them experience what you're describing a dozen or so times every year.
Growing up, we had an Ashley free standing wood stove that would blow back on us from time to time. All of us in our family learned at an early age that it is entirely possible(and likely) at some point to lose eyebrows and eyelashes if you do not exercise caution (dad called it common sense!) while loading.
Just open your door wide and wait about 5 or ten seconds before you put your head near it.
Don't worry about the creosote in the firebox either. Your 250 gets the vast majority of it's thermal transfer from the horizontal and vertical tubes.
Also, try to only load enough wood to get you by until your next 'feeding". If you are down to 6' or 8" of coals, you are pretty much guaranteed to not have any blow backs. If you are still half full, you best be standing back!
In the last 10 years, I've had 3 different OWB's sitting on my slab- first was home built, second was an Empyre Proseries 100 Gasser, and now my P&M 250. All three have produced fireballs. It is the nature of these beasts. Before them, I had a Consolidated Dutchwest Federal Airtight catalytic stove that would attempt to knock me over from time to time. About a half dozen of my neighbors have OWB's, and every one of them experience what you're describing a dozen or so times every year.
Growing up, we had an Ashley free standing wood stove that would blow back on us from time to time. All of us in our family learned at an early age that it is entirely possible(and likely) at some point to lose eyebrows and eyelashes if you do not exercise caution (dad called it common sense!) while loading.
Just open your door wide and wait about 5 or ten seconds before you put your head near it.
Don't worry about the creosote in the firebox either. Your 250 gets the vast majority of it's thermal transfer from the horizontal and vertical tubes.
Also, try to only load enough wood to get you by until your next 'feeding". If you are down to 6' or 8" of coals, you are pretty much guaranteed to not have any blow backs. If you are still half full, you best be standing back!
38
Portage & Main / Re: Keep those dampers and flappers clean and tight!
« on: December 12, 2014, 07:05:41 PM »
Mine would stick open just a tiny bit when I first got it.
I held the rod open with a Vice-Grip pliers and bent the flat strap (what the "flapper" is attached to) downward about a half inch.
Took care of the issue completely.
I like to hear a nice, loud "clank" when the boiler is done cycling.
The other two guys that bought theirs at the same time as me did the same tweak as me, and they've not had any issues either.
BTW,
The nozzle I got from karlk last year has held up wonderfully!
After all of last season and this year so far, there is very little wear at all. I have no doubt in my mind that it will easily get me through this year too.
I am VERY, VERY impressed with his masonry skills!
I recently traded him a 3 dollar tube cleaner for a hundred dollar nozzle.
I almost feel guilty about that trade. (ALMOST!)
I held the rod open with a Vice-Grip pliers and bent the flat strap (what the "flapper" is attached to) downward about a half inch.
Took care of the issue completely.
I like to hear a nice, loud "clank" when the boiler is done cycling.
The other two guys that bought theirs at the same time as me did the same tweak as me, and they've not had any issues either.
BTW,
The nozzle I got from karlk last year has held up wonderfully!
After all of last season and this year so far, there is very little wear at all. I have no doubt in my mind that it will easily get me through this year too.
I am VERY, VERY impressed with his masonry skills!
I recently traded him a 3 dollar tube cleaner for a hundred dollar nozzle.
I almost feel guilty about that trade. (ALMOST!
)
39
Fire Wood / Re: Nervous about Stolen Wood.
« on: December 12, 2014, 06:39:46 PM »What's your address?😄
There's one in every crowd...and it's usually me!
40
For Sale / Re: Wireless Remote Thermometer. Boiler Monitor
« on: November 28, 2014, 08:08:24 PM »
Wish I'd known you had this for sale.
I just ordered one as a Christmas present for my father-in-law from fleabay.
$39.99 Free Shipping
I just ordered one as a Christmas present for my father-in-law from fleabay.
$39.99 Free Shipping
41
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: major problem solved!!!
« on: November 09, 2014, 03:55:19 PM »The 3 wrap failed because the plastic O pipe it sits in failed. Logstar has better O pipe but any type of pipe- Logstar, 3 wrap, 5 wrap can still fail. The single best thing one can do, regardless of type of pipe, is to properly back-fill the trench. A bed of pea gravel, then pipe, then cover the pipe with sand or gravel a good 6 to 10 inches, then carefully back-fill the trench with the excavated material.
Brilliant post!!! Proper back filling is a must to pipe longevity.
42
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Sabotage at Fryburg fair!!!!!!
« on: October 06, 2014, 05:07:01 PM »
Looks like a piece of re-rod (or re-bar if you're not from Michigan).
That REALLY stinks Richard.
But you know....having that happen may have been a blessing in disguise. Maybe P&M ought to employ a magnet in the bin that a piece of metal would have to pass by before entering the auger?
You'll probably never be able to prosecute the butthead, but you can bet he won't be able to keep his mouth shut for long, so in time you'll know who did it! Then you'll have to decide just how you're going to deal with it
That REALLY stinks Richard.
But you know....having that happen may have been a blessing in disguise. Maybe P&M ought to employ a magnet in the bin that a piece of metal would have to pass by before entering the auger?
You'll probably never be able to prosecute the butthead, but you can bet he won't be able to keep his mouth shut for long, so in time you'll know who did it! Then you'll have to decide just how you're going to deal with it
43
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: I Need To Do Something Really Soon .........
« on: October 06, 2014, 04:47:19 PM »Quote
Can I ask what your heat loss was with each pipe? You state you gained +1.5 degrees but how much heat loss were you having with the Thermopex?
I have no good idea what my actual heat loss was with the Thermopex.
A few years back I bought a couple of Taylor candy thermometers, and I one weekend I taped them in strategic locations to my lines to see what kind of heat loss I might have. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the line thermometers to come close to matching my actual boiler temperature (seems like it was about 10 or 12 degrees off?), so doing a heat loss calculation using my redneck method would not work.
What I did learn was that there was a definite, measurable temperature drop (almost exactly 2 degrees) from my boiler to my home.
A temperature drop surely signifies heat loss, but there are too many variables that are out of my control for me to accurately calculate line heat loss with a good degree of certainty, much less put a number on it.
I dug out the thermometers last spring (after swapping out the lines) and did my makeshift-redneck-test-procedure again, and this time I had roughly a half degree of heat loss from the boiler to my home instead of the two degrees.
Now once again, I have no way to accurately measure how much heat the earth is stealing from me, but I'll GUESS that that loss has gone down by at least 50%, probably closer to 75%.
One of my hvac friends estimated my flow rate based on the head in my system, then he took the temperature drops into consideration, and his less than scientific conclusion was that the new line should save me at least a half cord in wood consumption, possibly as much as a full cord(based on 8 full cords/year usage).
I don't know what test procedures Central Boiler employed at the time my line was new, nor what independent lab they used, but the literature said that it only lost a bit over one degree in 100' (1.17 I think?).
I do know what the test method is that zsupply employs, and the independent lab they used said that under a given heat load with a fixed flow rate their insulated pex (5 wrap) lost less than .5 degree in 100'.
Their test results jive with this northern redneck's results, or do mine jive with theirs?
Whatever the case, as I implied in a post above, I'm a believer!!!
44
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: I Need To Do Something Really Soon .........
« on: October 05, 2014, 08:19:55 PM »
What happened to the Thermopex if I may ask? Thought it was supposed to be a close imitation of Logstor/Rehau.
Nothing happened with it.
It had a couple splits in it toward the end that I had caused from forcing it too much too fast when un-rolling it, but the water penetration was minimal.
There is a lot of heat loss associated with insulated lines like Thermopex because there is no conductive break.
I believe that if Thermopex, Logster, or Rehau were pulled through Sch. 40 pvc, heat loss would be very,very minimal.
Check out link below.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,48429.0.html
I gained about 1.5 degrees (measured with Maverick electronic thermometer that has been in place for 3 years)from my boiler to my house (100'), and although I didn't measure, I'm sure the return temperature was a bit higher as well.
I had a buyer for my used Thermopex, so I'm only really out my labor and a little beer for my brother who came over with his digger.
Zsupply has a GREAT video, and part of it deals with conductive breaks and why they are important in limiting heat loss.
I was skeptical at first, but now I'm a believer in QUALITY wrapped insulated pipe.
I picked up my pipe myself in Muskegon (here in Mi where it is made) and had the opportunity to talk with one of the owners for a while.
What an intelligent person!
I also got to meet Phillip (RSI) while I was at Zsupply. He's really shy in person, but one of the most honest and descent salesmen you'll ever encounter.
45
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: I Need To Do Something Really Soon .........
« on: October 05, 2014, 07:36:05 PM »
You'll not be disappointed with the 5 wrap from Zsupply.
I replaced my Thermopex with it early this past spring.
I bought mine through RSI, and since I bought a 150' roll, I got a heck of a deal.
I replaced my Thermopex with it early this past spring.
I bought mine through RSI, and since I bought a 150' roll, I got a heck of a deal.