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[pennyrilehunter]

Saw some eZe Flex Silver insulated pex made by Z supply (http://www.z-supply.com/home%20page.htm) at a dealer the other day and was wondering if anyone had any experience with it or comments on it versus the 3 or 5 wrap Low-E insulated Pex.

[RSI]

Scott uses it. I never have but got a sample of it and it is good quality. I would guess it is pretty much the same as the low e insulated triple wrap. (that is what I sell)  It is wrapped just the same. They use a single sheet and roll from the center outwards.

[Scott7m]

It's good stuff...  I like it a lot

[Hydronix]

   They show plenty of documented test/build data for the outer corrugated shell, however its the only part of the supply line that is warranted or guaranteed. They have a claim of their own test on the pipes' performance, but then right under it a disclaimer that its not guaranteed or warranted to repeat those performance claims. It claims that the foil reflects 95-98% of the conductive radiation. So that would mean if it were directly wrapped on the pipe you would only feel or detect 2-5% of the temperature of the pex line, according to their claims and the way they explain it in there info sheets.http://www.z-supply.com/home%20page_htm_files/AT%20Sales%20Sheet%202012%202%20page%20flyer.pdf    Then the thing that I am most curious about is the foam bubble wrap??, and there isn't any posted data on that piece of the pipe. I would assume that if it was as good as the outer shell , then why wouldn't that data be posted as well. Where its made any ASTM specs. It did say they used watts pex without O2 barrier, and offered P-A-P as an option but only in 1" size. Which it does mention that the watts 1" is only 7/8" I.D. or 44Kbtu/h

Just kinda makes you wonder, its performance claims of  0.72*f loss per 100' at 5gpm flow (test didn't say what supply temp or degree day) and half the price of major brands like Centrals' Thermopex or Uponor, sounds too good to be true. That temperature loss per 100' is half as much as any other ASTM rated product on the market.

Unfortunately it looks too much like  Eastlake Alternative Energy and their version of insul pipe.   http://eastlakealternativeenergy.com/insulated-boiler-pipe    and I know exactly how that version works.

Does anyone have any other data on the pipe

[Scott7m]

I've used itnfor a couple years.  As farbas data from a lab.  I have none but 90% of my customers throw a fit they have to pay 6 bucks a foot so asking them to buy something else is outnof the question in my area. 

All I know is I've not had any issues with it, I've installed it on top of the ground mid winter with snow fall laying on he pipe the next day not melting.  I've seen that non sever occasions. 

All of the technical data you like to see is fine, I'd look at it to for my one use.  But when it coes to the public, they don't wanna hear stuff they don't understand and simply want to know if it will heat there home.  I've seen folks here buy corrugated pipe with holes in it and take spray foam crack filler and squirt in the holes. 

[Hydronix]

Well thats good if you sell it and stand behind the product, not enough stand up guys out there. But you can understand the concern with so many cheap versions out there that look very similar. As an installer , I am sure you have seen alot of btu's wasted heating the ground from bogus pipe. There are plenty of articles online about it as well. With ASTM and MSDS data to support their claims, it would definitely set this pipe well apart from the others. I wouldn't want anyone mistakenly confusing the cheap stuff that doesn't work with this z-supply. At half the price, if it works as claimed, I would think it would be in their best interest to list all important data to support it. They sure do make alot of comparisons and claims versus foam based Central Thermoflex, yet they do not compare their product as being better than any other brand of similar foil wrapped product. I am sure you understand the skepticism,and " if its too good to be true then it probably is" saying.  I have never ran across a customer who found out the hard way, that didn't say " they wish they had known and purchased the better stuff the first time."  An extra $10.00/foot is pale in comparison to burning twice the # of cords, more refilling, cleaning, maintenance than they could be with good pipe. Thanks for your first hand input and experience with this.

[Scott7m]

Generally speaking I think they don't feel the need to compare it.  I'm not saying I agree with that.  However with the marketing power of central boiler telling everyone they have the greatest pipe since sliced bread it makes them the competition.  I've seen some test data from the cb stuff and recently talked to the company that makes it, I'm just not that impressed.  There was some line on here that I think t-bone posted that looked kinda like the uponor stuff.  I have never used any of the uponor insulated pex but it does look top notch

[boilerman]

Scott, I love how only the products you sell are any good and everything else is not very good or does not impress you. I also love how you always make the statement that Central Boiler can only sell their products because they are a "marketing machine". "Their furnace designs are not good, their Thermopex is not good". Maybe you didn't look at the:  Phase II OWB thread where "wish I was fishing guy" posted a link to take a tour of the Central Boiler Factory. I was very impressed! It looked like a lot more than a marketing machine company to me, but a very large successful company  Looked like they had a lot of high tech equipment, robotics, etc to produce a very quality built product and their facility looked huge. Here is the link in case you missed it: Central Boiler - Building Better Outdoor Wood Furnaces
Back to delivery lines. I am with Hydronix in thinking that the foam filled delivey lines like thermopex etc. can't be beat. My theory is that the encasement is totally filled with closed cell foam and there is no air gap. The wrapped lines allow heat to warm the gap between the drain tile type tube and wrapping. Buried in the cold frozen ground, that air gap will allow condensation to start dripping inside the tube in time (maybe 2 or 3 years or less) it fills the tube with a lot of water which easily conducts the heat to the shell, then into the ground for major heat loss. Have you ever been camping in a tent in the early spring or late fall when it freezes at night? You are warm in your sleeping bag, but water condensation is dripping from the tent ceiling due the the temp difference inside, the open air space inside, the shell of the tent and the cold air outside. Hydronix, what do you think of that theory? I have also seen the wrap line runs with major snow melt over them after a couple of years, leading to major heat loss and increased wood consumption. After many years of use, my thermopex is still performing without heat loss.

[Scott7m]

Boiler man, do u really find it that hard to accept that someone might not agree with you?  You say things on here I don't agree with but do I call your name out?  Uh, no.  Were not in 7th grade here and I can respect another's opinion.

There are a lot of good companies from which I don't carry.  I could sell any brand I wish and do stand behind the ones I sell, if I didn't beleive in them I shouldn't sell them, right? 

I could bash a company all day and night and you wouldn't care, but since you own a cb you feel the need to defend them and feel if I dont agree with them that somehow it's an attack on your intelligence. 

I have always told folks on here that cb stood behind there products and were one of the best.  I am not crazy about there gasser design and I do not need your permission to say so.  There is also a lot more that goes on in this industry that the average customer could ever realize. 

As far as the cb line, I am not crazy about it and the line I often brag the most about is one I don't even carry lol.  Once again, I do not need your permission to voice any opinions that I do have.  Whether they are pro your preferred company or not. 

Bottom line is this.  Realize not everyone will ever agree with everything you say.  Also realize that it's okay to disagree, doesn't mean you have to badger like a school girl because someone said something you don't think is true.  You have every right in the world to come here and brag on whatever you want, but something the members here don't do is call out each other because we don't agree with there opinions.  I think it's because most of us here are real men and can handle the fact we don't have to agree to get along. 

[boilerman]

Wow, looks like the school bully doesn't like when someone actually stands up to him.
Just seems that every post contains a personal advertisement for his business and products.
I'm sure others know what I mean and realize it too.
Anyway lets get over it and move on.
Any other theories on what makes a good or bad delivery line?

[Jeff]

Hello Folks,

This is Jeff Zack from Z Supply, LLC. I’d like to thank you all for discussing our products and hope no one minds if I offer a bit more information.

Also if you visit our web site at www.z-supply.com you will find two new videos that address many of the above comments.

First to our temp loss tests. These were conducted in real world environment by contract and we had no influence on the results except to provide a quality product for testing. The test pipe was 250’ long which is our standard roll size. With the pipe buried, a ground temp of 50° and under a load of 63.5k BTU eZe Flex lost 0.87° per 100'. Water temp at the boiler was 178.97°. Without a load the loss was 0.72°. All of our test results were performed after constant state had been achieved and were the average of 3 separate readings. No fudging and a reasonable 5 GPM flow rate.  But what about the disclaimer which was noted above by a poster? We know the test system was well designed but you all know that not every system is. Because of design variation we don’t think it reasonable or wise to guarantee temp loss in any individual install.

Our Silverfoam is an additive enhanced PE foam with a significant advantage over standard PE foam. As the site notes we have it manufactured specifically for us and to our specifications. It is a closed cell PE made in the United States and we laminate radiant barrier to it ourselves in our factory. Silverfoam is proprietary to us and I hope that you will not mind if we do not reveal the specific chemistry.

The only other manufacturer that I am aware of who has posted results of temp loss testing is the competitor who I suspect makes a pipe also noted above. Those are on the manufacturer’s sales site. That post claims 1.24° per 100’ for a three wrap product but offer little information as to ground temps or other test parameters. I have never seen any temp loss test results published by any of the manufacturers of the urethane filled foam products. I would be grateful to anyone who can point me to a manufacturer who has done so.

At Z Supply we have a passion to make and offer a quality product at a reasonable price.  I can see where some will feel the urethane filled supplies are superior, and in some situations that well be true, but we offer a value proposition that works well for the majority of OWB users.

Thank you once again for your interest in our products and for the opportunity to post on this forum. I wish all of you the very best in your 2012 endeavors.

Best Regards,

Jeff Zack

[hellonwheels]

Do not go with a wrapped product.  Stay with hard foam. 

[Jeff]

Hellonwheels,

This is Jeff Zack from Z Supply.

I see, from your post over on Hearth, that you had a bad experience with a different brand of wrapped pipe. I am sorry that happened to you. At Z Supply we have purposed to not allow QC problems like the pinholes you experienced. That is one of the reasons we chose white for the casing, QC is simplified from manufacture to burial, much easier to see any problems. Our casing meets ASTM F405 specifications and the spec sheet is on our site ( www.z-supply.com ). We have a real QC policy and process. We are striving to be a different kind of underground supply manufacturer.

What I am saying is, please do not lump Z Supply in with any other company just because the products are both wrapped. Check out our web site and give me a call if you like.

Best Regards,

Jeff Zack
Z Supply, LLC