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1
Electronics / Upgraded my control console
« on: January 23, 2019, 11:32:01 PM »
Because I'm a sucker for automation...
And felt the need for some apgrades, but the old box was full, and it appears this one is nearly undersized. At least - or hopefully - it looks more professional than a series of additions resulting from from afterthoughts.
And felt the need for some apgrades, but the old box was full, and it appears this one is nearly undersized. At least - or hopefully - it looks more professional than a series of additions resulting from from afterthoughts.
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Deal on Grundfos pumps today.
« on: September 13, 2018, 06:23:16 AM »
You guys in the trade probably got the email or have cheap parts sourcing, but supply house is having a sale on 15-58 pumps for $70 each when you buy a 4 pack. Sale time is 4-6 PM eastern.
I'd be on this myself, but snatched a box the on the last sale. They look to be marked down a little more this time.
I'd be on this myself, but snatched a box the on the last sale. They look to be marked down a little more this time.
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / The chemical free boiler
« on: June 27, 2018, 03:54:12 PM »
There was an engineer who spent years designing a device to take the place of boiler chemical. His claim was that dissolved oxygen in the water is what actually causes the reaction with iron. From my brief research this is true. The old man believed that if you could raise the kinetic energy of the water molecules to a certain level it would be possible for the oxygen to become unbound - or undissolved. After much work he supposedly created the formula for making this effect take place (whatever it's called). The chemical guys laughed and took offense calling it snake oil. Well, I could understand that.
The man created the device, patented it and sold the units in CA, at some point his salesman hacked all of the installed units up and sold for scrap metal. Some time later he moved to the East and set up shop. There are a number of closed loop boilers in the area, and to my knowledge even up to 500hp boilers that are using this thing with rather incredible results.
I don't see how an open vent boiler could be much different aside from lower temperatures - in regard to eliminating dissolved oxygen - but I'm no expert. There is one unit at work that I maintain. The components are very simple, but the design formula was supposedly specific to the boiler.
I almost agreed to help the man weld part of the conditioners, but it didn't materialize. He had a great thing going, unfortunately at the expense of the chemical guys. They still call the whole thing snake oil, but every year at inspection time the tubes on ours look to be in top shape. The inspector claims the boilers around that have these units are quite clean.
It would sure be nice to have such a device on a wood boiler, but it's too bad the old man took the formulas with him when he died. He was paranoid about someone else getting them. Just wondering if any of you guys have heard of such a thing in other parts of the country.
The man created the device, patented it and sold the units in CA, at some point his salesman hacked all of the installed units up and sold for scrap metal. Some time later he moved to the East and set up shop. There are a number of closed loop boilers in the area, and to my knowledge even up to 500hp boilers that are using this thing with rather incredible results.
I don't see how an open vent boiler could be much different aside from lower temperatures - in regard to eliminating dissolved oxygen - but I'm no expert. There is one unit at work that I maintain. The components are very simple, but the design formula was supposedly specific to the boiler.
I almost agreed to help the man weld part of the conditioners, but it didn't materialize. He had a great thing going, unfortunately at the expense of the chemical guys. They still call the whole thing snake oil, but every year at inspection time the tubes on ours look to be in top shape. The inspector claims the boilers around that have these units are quite clean.
It would sure be nice to have such a device on a wood boiler, but it's too bad the old man took the formulas with him when he died. He was paranoid about someone else getting them. Just wondering if any of you guys have heard of such a thing in other parts of the country.
4
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Solutions for heat bleedoff
« on: June 16, 2018, 11:46:26 PM »
I don't understand how you guys are getting by without boiling over in the summer. I was very meticulous at sealing the firebox and ash door with silicone and still had to bleed some heat off with a pair of 100 cfm fans across a heat exchanger in the shop. The first idea I had was to trigger the main hx fan with a temp controller, but the garage gets HOT, and very quickly when closed up. If left on I'd say the heat would build up to 140+ on a hot day? - just an educated guess.
So with the two small fans there is enough bleedoff to prevent overshoot under normal conditions with any type of wood. I'm content with the design, the shop doesn't get over 110 like this. Tonight the shortcomings were apparent. After a reload I checked the ash drawer and closed it back up. The lip that seats in the drawer seal wasn't seated completely, offset just a little. This created a considerable air leak. About 30 minutes later the over temp alarm sounds - fortunately I'm at home. Flue temps were 450 (they're usually 150-250 during idle).
I'm just brainstorming here, hopefully someone might throw in a slick idea I'm not thinking of. Perhaps there is a simple answer for a second stage of heat bleedoff. A small, 10 plate water/water exchanger crossed my mind, but then pumps, and a tank would be required. A small heat exchanger in the window is an idea I guess, but it has a pile of implications as well. How about an electric valve that opens and dumps some water outside after passing through the main DHW hx? Don't those get stuck?
I'm just a rookie boiler operator, not sure what everyone else does, but would like some more aggressive way to pull heat out that is automated.
So with the two small fans there is enough bleedoff to prevent overshoot under normal conditions with any type of wood. I'm content with the design, the shop doesn't get over 110 like this. Tonight the shortcomings were apparent. After a reload I checked the ash drawer and closed it back up. The lip that seats in the drawer seal wasn't seated completely, offset just a little. This created a considerable air leak. About 30 minutes later the over temp alarm sounds - fortunately I'm at home. Flue temps were 450 (they're usually 150-250 during idle).
I'm just brainstorming here, hopefully someone might throw in a slick idea I'm not thinking of. Perhaps there is a simple answer for a second stage of heat bleedoff. A small, 10 plate water/water exchanger crossed my mind, but then pumps, and a tank would be required. A small heat exchanger in the window is an idea I guess, but it has a pile of implications as well. How about an electric valve that opens and dumps some water outside after passing through the main DHW hx? Don't those get stuck?
I'm just a rookie boiler operator, not sure what everyone else does, but would like some more aggressive way to pull heat out that is automated.
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Just wanted to say thanks, project complete
« on: June 04, 2018, 09:44:58 PM »
It's been a long road, not sure how things became so complex, but I owe a thanks to those of you who are always quick to respond and make the advice and info available.
Looking back things were pretty straight-cut and basic, but somewhere along the line features on top of other features were incorporated into the system driven by paranoia. At least it is possible to learn from others' mistakes, so nothing to worry about if the ash tray or firebox gets left open, I will know about it soon enough.
I've made three revisions having to shut it down each time, but this time I believe, is a winner. Having 170 degree water to wash the tractor is quite a luxury. Endless hot showers nearly free of cost are cherished.
Here is a glance at the manifold, probably ho-hum to you pro guys, but certainly a design challenge for the do-it-yourselfer. I expect someone will look at this saying - why is that like that? Well, there might be a reason... maybe...
This is my solution to temperature creep during summer use - A controller operates the pair of fans forcing air into the cabinet and through the heat exchanger when boiler temp hits X degrees, it offers a slow and steady bleed off without torching the garage all of a sudden. I see that after a hot burn and the right kind of wood the creep-up is slow, but sure to happen even when every door seal is siliconed.
There is a hole cut into the upper cabinet, open the doors for normal function.
I'll post a pic of the completed control console when I get the living room cleaned up a bit. Thus far I am pleased with everything, as it pretty much takes care of itself with redundant safeties for over and under temp conditions. It is impossible to put too much load on the system that would result in damaging return temps just as having a red hot stack is also impossible. And just for the record, every electronic component is wired with a bypass switch (except the Ranco thermostat) in case of failure.
Looking back things were pretty straight-cut and basic, but somewhere along the line features on top of other features were incorporated into the system driven by paranoia. At least it is possible to learn from others' mistakes, so nothing to worry about if the ash tray or firebox gets left open, I will know about it soon enough.
I've made three revisions having to shut it down each time, but this time I believe, is a winner. Having 170 degree water to wash the tractor is quite a luxury. Endless hot showers nearly free of cost are cherished.
Here is a glance at the manifold, probably ho-hum to you pro guys, but certainly a design challenge for the do-it-yourselfer. I expect someone will look at this saying - why is that like that? Well, there might be a reason... maybe...
This is my solution to temperature creep during summer use - A controller operates the pair of fans forcing air into the cabinet and through the heat exchanger when boiler temp hits X degrees, it offers a slow and steady bleed off without torching the garage all of a sudden. I see that after a hot burn and the right kind of wood the creep-up is slow, but sure to happen even when every door seal is siliconed.
There is a hole cut into the upper cabinet, open the doors for normal function.
I'll post a pic of the completed control console when I get the living room cleaned up a bit. Thus far I am pleased with everything, as it pretty much takes care of itself with redundant safeties for over and under temp conditions. It is impossible to put too much load on the system that would result in damaging return temps just as having a red hot stack is also impossible. And just for the record, every electronic component is wired with a bypass switch (except the Ranco thermostat) in case of failure.
6
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Does anyone put a roof over their OWB?
« on: January 30, 2018, 04:22:21 PM »
I've been hard at work on my install and was pondering this. Don't think I've seen a single picture of anyone putting a roof or carport over their boiler. It seems like it would offer a lot as far as keeping electronics, wires, and insulation dry. Splash up from the ground already looks like it may be problematic in the long run. Also the advantage of having a covered area to maintain and reload the unit.
My NCB175 has no insulation on the belly, which seems bizarre, but I will be adding some. Now if that gets wet, then the purpose is null and void.
So it is apparent that finding a carport of such a small size is hard to come by, looks like I'll have to build it myself.
Just wondering what the general consensus was.
My NCB175 has no insulation on the belly, which seems bizarre, but I will be adding some. Now if that gets wet, then the purpose is null and void.
So it is apparent that finding a carport of such a small size is hard to come by, looks like I'll have to build it myself.
Just wondering what the general consensus was.
7
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Configuration advice for new system
« on: January 07, 2018, 12:38:52 AM »
First, much thanks to those who take the time to donate your knowledge and experience. I've got a NCB-175 on the way (and sacrificed dearly for it) and a lot left on the parts list. I'm having trouble arriving at a solid conclusion on number of pumps and loops to meet the heating needs, so any responses could potentially save me hundereds on the parts list along with wasted time so - thanks in advance!
Here is the application:
VERY leaky 2500 sq/ft house, 2 floor, and built in '72. Air handler for the heat pump is in the attic - I refuse to put a HX in the plenum (for a number of reasons, including my peculiar logic
)
I had hope for the NCB-175 heating the entire house on a 0*F day comfortably, doubt it will happen, but might get close. Of all the online calculators I get an average of 240k btu requirement on the worst possible day.
1. Primary HX, manufacturer claims 200k btu, it is a unit heater with big fan. This is overkill I'm sure, had plans of changing fan motor to 3 phase with an eaton motor drive to have full rpm control. This will basically be replacing what the wood stove was doing and in same vicinity.
2. Second, HX air will be pumped through the floor, center of house, the unit claims 100k btu, the inline blower pulling the air is 440 cfm and can't (doesn't need to be) changed.
3. Third, domestic hot water,, already configured in an unorthodox (but proven effective) manner. The details are probably irrelevant, but it does have a circ pump and differential temp controller from previous setup. A plate HX will be used along with another separate pump - water heater tank cannot overheat this way.
4. Low priority so lower performance is acceptable - shop HX. The unit I have is a 150k (claimed) and way overkill because the small (affordable) units have all been sold out, so I went BIG.
Being mindful of the implications that exist with the way I wanted to set this up, I see the status quo seems to be leaving the pump running 24/7, >150* return temps, and ~20* deltaT. There seems to be an obstacle with every good configuration that I've come up with, but here is my best thought -
1-2 and 3-4 are within close proximity to each other, and all entering the house at same location.
1 and 2 will need total loop length of about 150'. 3 and 4 will need total loop length of 70'
OWB feet are 7' higher than 1,2,3,4.
The underground pex I have is 1"
My math shows up as an estimated 12.5' effective head. Flow through 1 and 2 need to be 15gpm combined (according to my math). I was thinking it may be best to run a grundfos 26-99 through two loops paralleled coming off that same pump to feed #1 and #2. By some means a filter would be nice to add here.
3 and 4 may best be together on same loop (1") due to their location being within a couple feet and priority level the same. A grundfos ups15-58 for these?
OR
Would it just be better to run a 15-58 for #1, and another for #2, and another for 3 and 4, then another 15-58 for a backup (since they are cheap). Now how do you put filters on all these affordably?
Well, this turned into a book. My apologies. I will stay awake for nights to come thinking about this until the heat blows in this house again.
Big thanks.
Here is the application:
VERY leaky 2500 sq/ft house, 2 floor, and built in '72. Air handler for the heat pump is in the attic - I refuse to put a HX in the plenum (for a number of reasons, including my peculiar logic
)I had hope for the NCB-175 heating the entire house on a 0*F day comfortably, doubt it will happen, but might get close. Of all the online calculators I get an average of 240k btu requirement on the worst possible day.
1. Primary HX, manufacturer claims 200k btu, it is a unit heater with big fan. This is overkill I'm sure, had plans of changing fan motor to 3 phase with an eaton motor drive to have full rpm control. This will basically be replacing what the wood stove was doing and in same vicinity.
2. Second, HX air will be pumped through the floor, center of house, the unit claims 100k btu, the inline blower pulling the air is 440 cfm and can't (doesn't need to be) changed.
3. Third, domestic hot water,, already configured in an unorthodox (but proven effective) manner. The details are probably irrelevant, but it does have a circ pump and differential temp controller from previous setup. A plate HX will be used along with another separate pump - water heater tank cannot overheat this way.
4. Low priority so lower performance is acceptable - shop HX. The unit I have is a 150k (claimed) and way overkill because the small (affordable) units have all been sold out, so I went BIG.
Being mindful of the implications that exist with the way I wanted to set this up, I see the status quo seems to be leaving the pump running 24/7, >150* return temps, and ~20* deltaT. There seems to be an obstacle with every good configuration that I've come up with, but here is my best thought -
1-2 and 3-4 are within close proximity to each other, and all entering the house at same location.
1 and 2 will need total loop length of about 150'. 3 and 4 will need total loop length of 70'
OWB feet are 7' higher than 1,2,3,4.
The underground pex I have is 1"
My math shows up as an estimated 12.5' effective head. Flow through 1 and 2 need to be 15gpm combined (according to my math). I was thinking it may be best to run a grundfos 26-99 through two loops paralleled coming off that same pump to feed #1 and #2. By some means a filter would be nice to add here.
3 and 4 may best be together on same loop (1") due to their location being within a couple feet and priority level the same. A grundfos ups15-58 for these?
OR
Would it just be better to run a 15-58 for #1, and another for #2, and another for 3 and 4, then another 15-58 for a backup (since they are cheap). Now how do you put filters on all these affordably?
Well, this turned into a book. My apologies. I will stay awake for nights to come thinking about this until the heat blows in this house again.
Big thanks.
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