Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: victor6deep on February 28, 2014, 07:48:31 PM
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You have received a YouTube video! The Truth About Insulated Pipe R Value (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRo_BlToxGo#)
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Believe it!
Zach is one of the most honest, intelligent, hard working people I've ever met.
If and WHEN we get rid of this cold weather and the frost leaves, I'll be burying 100' of his product that I bought last year.
I'll be creating yet another air space by putting his product in another tile.
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Believe it!
Zach is one of the most honest, intelligent, hard working people I've ever met.
If and WHEN we get rid of this cold weather and the frost leaves, I'll be burying 100' of his product that I bought last year.
I'll be creating yet another air space by putting his product in another tile.
It's good stuff, but I like the way your doing it martyinmi
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I went with the 3 wrap double tiled from zsupply and am very impressed. Just wanted to see what others thought of his product.
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Most people I don't believe buy the z supply product when they buy the 3 or 5 wrap products. They buy the cheap draintile product with the wrapped pipe system inside. The biggest problem for any manufacturer of supply pipe is water infiltration to the supply system. If water gets in the pipe they are screwed.
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I used z-suppy with double tile and it's working out great so far.
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I have the cheapo 5 wrap stuff from ebay. So far it seems ok. Temp loss is about 1 degree, over a distance of 110', and that is what my cheapo, infrared temp gun says.
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I'll probably go with z-supply 3 wrap when I replace mine. Originally I placed a 4 inch pipe inside a six inch pipe with all the insulation I could wrap around the 4 and still get it to slide inside the 6.
I'll have to dig the corners up to get the 4 inch out of them then use rubber couplers with stainless clamps to reassemble. I'd love to go with the 5 wrap instead but I think trying to get 5 inch tile to slide inside a hundred foot of 6 inch thats already buried could be futile at best.
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I'll probably go with z-supply 3 wrap when I replace mine. Originally I placed a 4 inch pipe inside a six inch pipe with all the insulation I could wrap around the 4 and still get it to slide inside the 6.
I'll have to dig the corners up to get the 4 inch out of them then use rubber couplers with stainless clamps to reassemble. I'd love to go with the 5 wrap instead but I think trying to get 5 inch tile to slide inside a hundred foot of 6 inch thats already buried could be futile at best.
Chinese fingers and a wire pulling machine and some lube.
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I'll probably go with z-supply 3 wrap when I replace mine. Originally I placed a 4 inch pipe inside a six inch pipe with all the insulation I could wrap around the 4 and still get it to slide inside the 6.
I'll have to dig the corners up to get the 4 inch out of them then use rubber couplers with stainless clamps to reassemble. I'd love to go with the 5 wrap instead but I think trying to get 5 inch tile to slide inside a hundred foot of 6 inch thats already buried could be futile at best.
Chinese fingers and a wire pulling machine and some lube.
I'd be afraid of pulling something apart in the process.
My thinking is a 3 wrap inside a 4" tile slid inside a 6" piece of sewer pipe will still have a lot of dead air space around it and should perform as well or better than a 5 wrap that is direct buried.
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A 12 degree loss at 5gpm , same pipe just increase flow to 10gpm only shows half a degree loss. The heat loss is still there just hidden by the speed of the fluid. Quality underground pipe has no air space to infiltrate and shows full documentation of test procedures. There is no such thing as bubble wrap that performs or lasts as good or even close to logstor, Urecon, Rehau, Thermopex. If there was you'd see plenty of documentation and test procedures.
As long as the customer knows this and understands a cord or more will be lost to the ground, it's his decision to buy what pipe suits his budget. I've never heard of a quality pipe consumer wishing they used a cheaper pipe instead. In the long run the quality pipe is always cheaper
And yes the info is true about the foil needing a full 6" of dead air space to achieve its R value. The dead air space has all the R , the foil just reflects it. A good read of the actual design and application of foil insulation shows where it works best.
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You see the first guy to reply sprinter???
He bought thermopex, it split and failed and became water logged.
He's now wishing he'd went with something else and you see what he's going with, and how he's doing it is top notch! Probably the best way of doing it
You often claim these standards and tests but a lot of that stuff is purely nothing more than a company paying for a certification and nothing more.
The heat loss on z supply 5 wrap is .48 per 100ft at 5 GPM
If you think creating a barrier between soaked wet soil or frozen soil in the form of an air space isn't a good idea, then I simply ask you do some research outside that of marketing labels or paid for certifications
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I'm in the middle of getting ready to replace my standard old badger 3 wrap pipe right now, I thought it was failing but upon further inspection it's not but I still want to do the best system I can
I do feel logstor is the toughest material u can drop into a trench and will be fine, but I'm not so sure that taking 5 wrap and pulling it through pvc may be even better. Even if I did do the logstor it would also be inside of an extra layer of protection with an air space around it.
The thermal conductivity is what's most important, if you can create a space between the insulation and the pipe itself it is a benefit
If you measure from the edge of pex to edge of tile on logstor it's around 1 inch, distance from edge of pex to tile on z supply 5 wrap is thicker, whether that means even better, I'm not 100% sure, but to encase it there is no doubt it will out per perform any foam pipes I've seen
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I used the zsupply 3 wrap for my hot tub, it was only 40 feet but has worked well, I was careful to put it in sand around the pipe.
My boiler to house run was done ten years ago and I put it in 4" Insul-Seal pipe, http://www.insulseal.com/index.html (http://www.insulseal.com/index.html)
I pulled pex/al/pex inside it and it has worked well for us. I used this product for my well piping also since we had to cross the driveway and the frost can go very deep here. There are (2) 45's that turn up into the bottom of the boiler and the utility room so there was room for electric lines also.
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You see the first guy to reply sprinter???
He bought thermopex, it split and failed and became water logged.
He's now wishing he'd went with something else and you see what he's going with, and how he's doing it is top notch! Probably the best way of doing it
You often claim these standards and tests but a lot of that stuff is purely nothing more than a company paying for a certification and nothing more.
The heat loss on z supply 5 wrap is .48 per 100ft at 5 GPM
If you think creating a barrier between soaked wet soil or frozen soil in the form of an air space isn't a good idea, then I simply ask you do some research outside that of marketing labels or paid for certifications
Oh boy I'd love to see some split thermopex, can't imagine what the bedding looked like if the thermopex casing failed. And no way the pex split. A highly qualified installer can make anything fail.
If you think even for a second that multimillion dollar companies throw out bogus ASTM and test data specs for sales, someone has pulled the wool on you. Unless Z supply has changed something on their test data it claims a half a degree loss with a 65kbtu load thru 1" pex. Also their testing data is no where to be found or accredited , just a few details in quotes. They also don't mention whether the test data is with PAP or the cheap pex witha .875" ID . BIG difference in flow velocity. No where do they state a specific pipe, GPM flow and temp loss in the same sentence. Let alone any test conditions.
I'll put up any of the brands I mentioned in a side by side test. I think more research also needs to be done on where and how a reflective radiant barrier will actually work. If there was even a small benefit of using it underground why aren't the big manufacturers using it? We all KNOW what standing or sitting on a single 1" layer of foam board feels like on the ice, or on my toilet seat in the outhouse in Alaska. Last I checked anything foil isn't being used, and I wonder what happens when that pipe makes a bend and the pex presses the foil against the side of the drain tile. I wonder if it makes a hotspot?
I'm not trying to say Zpipe is junk, just that it's not some miracle pipe that works as good or better than the good pipe. We are all trying to make our customers systems as efficient as possible, so why take the risk, cuz it's not a cheap one if something does go wrong. And who gets left hanging.
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Who said it was a miracle??
Also, 5 gallons per minute is 5 gallons per minute, whether it's through a garden hose or someone takin a leak
Do ya realize you could build the best pipe in the world and if you didn't want to pay for all those certifications and rest it would still be the best pipe in the world???
In regards to martys pipe, I've posted pics of it on here, look around you'll find them, it literally split and if I remember right they gave him some kinda tape to put over the split, it became water logged
I also just spoke with a guy yesterday from Minnesota who has 6 year old thermopex that has became water logged. When it comes to foam filled pipes, in my opinion thermopex is a joke when better products are only slightly more in cost
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You see the first guy to reply sprinter???
He bought thermopex, it split and failed and became water logged.
He's now wishing he'd went with something else and you see what he's going with, and how he's doing it is top notch! Probably the best way of doing it
You often claim these standards and tests but a lot of that stuff is purely nothing more than a company paying for a certification and nothing more.
The heat loss on z supply 5 wrap is .48 per 100ft at 5 GPM
If you think creating a barrier between soaked wet soil or frozen soil in the form of an air space isn't a good idea, then I simply ask you do some research outside that of marketing labels or paid for certifications
Oh boy I'd love to see some split thermopex, can't imagine what the bedding looked like if the thermopex casing failed. And no way the pex split. A highly qualified installer can make anything fail.
If you think even for a second that multimillion dollar companies throw out bogus ASTM and test data specs for sales, someone has pulled the wool on you. Unless Z supply has changed something on their test data it claims a half a degree loss with a 65kbtu load thru 1" pex. Also their testing data is no where to be found or accredited , just a few details in quotes. They also don't mention whether the test data is with PAP or the cheap pex witha .875" ID . BIG difference in flow velocity. No where do they state a specific pipe, GPM flow and temp loss in the same sentence. Let alone any test conditions.
I'll put up any of the brands I mentioned in a side by side test. I think more research also needs to be done on where and how a reflective radiant barrier will actually work. If there was even a small benefit of using it underground why aren't the big manufacturers using it? We all KNOW what standing or sitting on a single 1" layer of foam board feels like on the ice, or on my toilet seat in the outhouse in Alaska. Last I checked anything foil isn't being used, and I wonder what happens when that pipe makes a bend and the pex presses the foil against the side of the drain tile. I wonder if it makes a hotspot?
I'm not trying to say Zpipe is junk, just that it's not some miracle pipe that works as good or better than the good pipe. We are all trying to make our customers systems as efficient as possible, so why take the risk, cuz it's not a cheap one if something does go wrong. And who gets left hanging.
While we're on topic
Why would a "highly qualified installer" want to make his pipe fail??
Also, no one said they were throwing out bogus numbers, just saying like my point earlier, just because someone doesn't want to spend the money to acquire some label or certification doesn't mean it is automatically ruled out or that it's automatically inferior
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http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf (http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf)
Notice the temp changes with different velocity? 5gpm thru .875" is almost double the velocity as 5gpm thru 1"PAP. Faster velocity hides temp loss.
Let's say it this way, when fluid travels at the same velocity/speed and data is collected, the results look a lot different. But as you can see the logstor numbers are already there and can't get any clearer. Can't skew that data, nope no way to twist it.
Well if you don't wanna pay for ASTM labels, that doesn't stop you from posting the exact same test data criteria. You know so everyone can compare apples identically. But let me guess somebody figured out a better way to report test data than the hydronic industry norm. For btu/temp loss thru piping.
As far as High Q installer, I'm gonna guess that the thermopex didn't fail, but installation methods did. There's only so many ways to make that casing split, and other than a knife, I'd have to guess there was a leak from the fittings that compromised the the pipe and froze. I've seen that several times.
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Makes me glad I bought Logstor but still confused if you should run it in a 6inch tile.
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Either way I am getting 16hr burns on negative degree nights so the zpipe is good enough for me. If I do start using more wood or change pipe out to logstor in the future it would be sweet if I could pull it through the 5 inch tile. I don't really see how a thin amount of foam can make that big of a difference just my opinion. I think it has to do with the durability of the outer covering. I could see condensation forming on silver wrap or foam if the situation arises. Is the air space the creator of condensation? It very well could be. If my pipe is losing that much heat wouldn't I have some melted soil at grade level that is tight to my pipe going up into the stove? If so the ground is just as frozen around the pipe as elsewhere.l
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http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf (http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf)
Notice the temp changes with different velocity? 5gpm thru .875" is almost double the velocity as 5gpm thru 1"PAP. Faster velocity hides temp loss.
Let's say it this way, when fluid travels at the same velocity/speed and data is collected, the results look a lot different. But as you can see the logstor numbers are already there and can't get any clearer. Can't skew that data, nope no way to twist it.
Well if you don't wanna pay for ASTM labels, that doesn't stop you from posting the exact same test data criteria. You know so everyone can compare apples identically. But let me guess somebody figured out a better way to report test data than the hydronic industry norm. For btu/temp loss thru piping.
As far as High Q installer, I'm gonna guess that the thermopex didn't fail, but installation methods did. There's only so many ways to make that casing split, and other than a knife, I'd have to guess there was a leak from the fittings that compromised the the pipe and froze. I've seen that several times.
I'm waiting for Scotts reply.
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Sprinter,
This spring when I dig my Thermopex up, I'll send you a pm and you can come over take a look at it and report your findings here.
You are probably about 150 miles from me. I will even buy you dinner if you make the trip. (Dollar menu at McDonalds)
While you are here, I'll show you how impossible it would be for my "installation method to have failed" when "bedding" it in a rock free, sandy loam soil 18" - 24" deep.
Also, while you are here, we will slice of a chunk of the closed cell poly-whatever and put it in my bench vice and squeeze the water out of it. You can video that and post it here if you'd like.
I have a 110' roll of Zach's product here right now. I only need 95' of it. Perhaps you'd like to buy 15' from me and do some heat loss calculations on it?
I'm not here to bash CB's product, but I will say that their system of quality control was lacking on approximately 50' of the 100' piece that I purchased. That 50' WILL be the first place that my yard will thaw out.
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With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage. The ztile is more than just drain tile and far less likely to crack OR crush like the black tile alone. I have not come across a root compromised ztile but I have seen lots of the other. I wouldn't waste time and money with more tile, PVC, SDR or homemade is where any extra gain will come from. Spray foam kits wouldn't be so expensive if it weren't for the EPA regs and building your own would be just like running potable water mains. Stretching and pulling drain tile??? Might wanna. Test first, if you read the specs, it doesn't have ANY strength till it's buried. Our current drain tile with white PVC jacket says 3000psi crush strength, but that's only when properly bedded and backfiled to the ASTM specs.
Victor you might be a good test consumer for the forum. All we would need is an accurate flow measurement ( flow meter / calefi quick setter, zurn, Johnson control type), pretty close footage measurement, and good temp readings. The zpipe is probably the best of the foil wrap types and it has its place for those that can't budget the high dollar pipe. That goes for any part of the system as well. We would all love to buy the top of the line, I just don't like when I get a customer that was sold on the fact that its as good or better, it's just not a cheap component to have to repair.
Whether snow melts on yours or not all depends on the depth, soil moisture , frost line etc. Not everyone can view the pipe thru an infrared camera.
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With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage. The ztile is more than just drain tile and far less likely to crack OR crush like the black tile alone. I have not come across a root compromised ztile but I have seen lots of the other. I wouldn't waste time and money with more tile, PVC, SDR or homemade is where any extra gain will come from. Spray foam kits wouldn't be so expensive if it weren't for the EPA regs and building your own would be just like running potable water mains. Stretching and pulling drain tile??? Might wanna. Test first, if you read the specs, it doesn't have ANY strength till it's buried. Our current drain tile with white PVC jacket says 3000psi crush strength, but that's only when properly bedded and backfiled to the ASTM specs.
Victor you might be a good test consumer for the forum. All we would need is an accurate flow measurement ( flow meter / calefi quick setter, zurn, Johnson control type), pretty close footage measurement, and good temp readings. The zpipe is probably the best of the foil wrap types and it has its place for those that can't budget the high dollar pipe. That goes for any part of the system as well. We would all love to buy the top of the line, I just don't like when I get a customer that was sold on the fact that its as good or better, it's just not a cheap component to have to repair.
Whether snow melts on yours or not all depends on the depth, soil moisture , frost line etc. Not everyone can view the pipe thru an infrared camera.
If I do a YouTube video and the pipe doesn't hold to spec can I get a refund so I can buy logstor?
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Victor, it's one of those situations where I'm to tired to argue about it anymore. I've posted pics on this topic and martyinmi situation too
In regard to the high quality tile ? It's white? But I've not had fewer issues out of it vs the black tile. I'm not bashing z supply at all but just saying both have seemed to work for us, I know Jeff and he's a good guy and I'm sure he has done his homework on the pipe, but I've not had any issues really with either company. Although, badger has changed there foam inside the wraps now and it appears thinner
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With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage.
That's not exactly true, we've installed miles and miles of drainage tile on the home farm and leased ground. You have drain tile, then you can also buy solid tile without the perforations. For solid tile we only buy tile made of virgin plastic. We've ran this thru woods, along woods and thru fencerows, if it had a place for water to get in so will a tree root eventually, we've yet to dig any up due to plugging caused by tree roots. The only trick to keeping it root free is not to splice it, if you need six hundred feet then buy a minimum roll size of six hundred feet.
I could definitely see cheaper solid tile having a few defects in it that would allow water in, the same could happen if it was handled rough.
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With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage.
That's not exactly true, we've installed miles and miles of drainage tile on the home farm and leased ground. You have drain tile, then you can also buy solid tile without the perforations. For solid tile we only buy tile made of virgin plastic. We've ran this thru woods, along woods and thru fencerows, if it had a place for water to get in so will a tree root eventually, we've yet to dig any up due to plugging caused by tree roots. The only trick to keeping it root free is not to splice it, if you need six hundred feet then buy a minimum roll size of six hundred feet.
I could definitely see cheaper solid tile having a few defects in it that would allow water in, the same could happen if it was handled rough.
There's no doubt what we use on the farm is different than what you'll find anywhere else for corrugated tile. I'm gonna guess that most won't know this difference but now were getting into cost
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With good pipe extra sleeving isn't necessary, and if the extra sleeve isn't 100% water tight it can hold water. Which is just as bad as very wet soil. All an extra layer of drain tile is good for is bad backfill conditions. Zero drain tile on the market was ever intended on being watertight, hence the reason we use it. For drainage.
That's not exactly true, we've installed miles and miles of drainage tile on the home farm and leased ground. You have drain tile, then you can also buy solid tile without the perforations. For solid tile we only buy tile made of virgin plastic. We've ran this thru woods, along woods and thru fencerows, if it had a place for water to get in so will a tree root eventually, we've yet to dig any up due to plugging caused by tree roots. The only trick to keeping it root free is not to splice it, if you need six hundred feet then buy a minimum roll size of six hundred feet.
I could definitely see cheaper solid tile having a few defects in it that would allow water in, the same could happen if it was handled rough.
There's no doubt what we use on the farm is different than what you'll find anywhere else for corrugated tile. I'm gonna guess that most won't know this difference but now were getting into cost
Right, I'd stay away from TSC for tile. Cost is a factor though i'll admit. We still have enough tile we'd like to install that we still order by the semi load to get discounts.
If a person was looking to get some higher quality tile to slide their insulated line in I would suggest getting a phone book out and look under drainage contractor, they should be able to set you up.
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mclappin, TSC solid tile 2 years old. Search my user name and read my thread if you want.
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Like I said, I'd stay away from TSC for tile. I take it you split it to get the roots out?
I have seen cheaper brands that if you stepped on them or too rough back filling it they'd split right down the seams that the mold left.
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Yup, I cut it to take the pics. There was roots at every tree, some trees were 50' away and still had roots in them. I would never use a corrugated tile of any type for insulated lines again. FYI, I replaced this tile run with 4" PVC solid sewer pipe. It wasn't even that bad a price.
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I have been getting 16hr burns plus in our recent weather here in Michigan. Stove is set at 165-180 and home is 70 degrees around the clock also indoor humidity is tight to 40%. Stove sets 60ft from house using zsupply 3 wrap double tile and getting the same temp coming off my stove pump as my pipe as it enters the basement. I will be the first one to call this pipe a bluff but so far it is holding its own for a tile type insulated pipe. Like I said before if I start using more wood and notice temp changes between the stove and house I will gladly dig it up and post pics of the failure. Until then I think the owner of zsupply is so far a man of his word.
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Victor unless you know how fast your water is flowing the temp claim means nothing. Now if your flowing 4' per second or slower when taking measurements , that's great results. Even the most expensive pipe losses a degree to a degree and a half at 4/sec/100'.
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Like I said, I'd stay away from TSC for tile. I take it you split it to get the roots out?
I have seen cheaper brands that if you stepped on them or too rough back filling it they'd split right down the seams that the mold left.
Unfortunately nowadays everything is made as cheap as it can be to get it on the big box store shelf. We don't use anything that doesn't have an ASTM or ASSE label, as that's the building code. Sometimes we get hit cause someone didn't pay attention when buying. We had a run with junk pipe and it's all failing. Some areas were lucky and the good inspectors caught it, the unlucky ones are paying some serious repair money. And the dumb contractors are being sued by the insurance companies cuz its under the 10 year statute for using non approved materials. How much was that savings worth now. The sad part is there are customers willing to pay more for quality product but it's getting harder to find or not at all in some cases.