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16
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Blown insulation worth the $$$$
« on: September 30, 2014, 05:49:55 AM »
There used to be a cellulose plant in my town when I was a kid, in school we had paper drives for the plant to use to make insulation out of, its was a really big thing back in the day, both as a fund raiser and also a donation depending on who was doing it and for what. As the plant changed and also the cellulose changed we always got the tours of it and also its progress. It ran its course and after about twenty years, everyone who'd used it, was so sick of it, the plant went broke and closed.
As for how it absorbs moisture, simple, if you have damp, foggy weather, and a lot of it, blown in cavities don't have a vapor barrier installed, its impossible to do, hence the reason for blowing in insulation in the first place. With rainy weather and high humitidy comes moisture, the manufacturers can claim all they want with the use of chemicals and process's of manufacturing, its still a paper based product, hence cellulose the name, and any paper based product can absorb moisture, will it dry out, over time yes it will, but not before it sinks in the cavity somewhat. Over time with enough sinking and drying out, you have an air gap at the top of the walls, which is why it was such a big thing to go back around a few years later, unplug all the holes used to blow it in, and top off the wall cavitiies again. I've known a few houses that had this done four times over the period of about ten years.
If you have a water leak, like in a wall or from a bath room upstairs in a house and the water runs down into the wall cavaties, the moisture will actually over power the chemicals used to treat the cellulose inslation and it will start to mold, hence why I hate it so much, I'm alergeric to mold and will get violently sick from mold, more than a few houses have been gutted due to molding cellulose insulation in my area to both clean out the old moldy insualtion and replace with new fiberglass or spray foam to elimiinate the mold issues. Just tossing out some different experiences and views on cellulose insulation, don't mean to bash the product, there are many area's of the country it works great and for many applications, but as they say, been there done that and not interested myself anymore.
As for how it absorbs moisture, simple, if you have damp, foggy weather, and a lot of it, blown in cavities don't have a vapor barrier installed, its impossible to do, hence the reason for blowing in insulation in the first place. With rainy weather and high humitidy comes moisture, the manufacturers can claim all they want with the use of chemicals and process's of manufacturing, its still a paper based product, hence cellulose the name, and any paper based product can absorb moisture, will it dry out, over time yes it will, but not before it sinks in the cavity somewhat. Over time with enough sinking and drying out, you have an air gap at the top of the walls, which is why it was such a big thing to go back around a few years later, unplug all the holes used to blow it in, and top off the wall cavitiies again. I've known a few houses that had this done four times over the period of about ten years.
If you have a water leak, like in a wall or from a bath room upstairs in a house and the water runs down into the wall cavaties, the moisture will actually over power the chemicals used to treat the cellulose inslation and it will start to mold, hence why I hate it so much, I'm alergeric to mold and will get violently sick from mold, more than a few houses have been gutted due to molding cellulose insulation in my area to both clean out the old moldy insualtion and replace with new fiberglass or spray foam to elimiinate the mold issues. Just tossing out some different experiences and views on cellulose insulation, don't mean to bash the product, there are many area's of the country it works great and for many applications, but as they say, been there done that and not interested myself anymore.
17
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Blown insulation worth the $$$$
« on: September 29, 2014, 08:03:29 PM »
I've lived in a few houses that had blown in cellulose in them, to be honest I hate the stuff, it sank down in the walls, when it gets damps from the moisture in the air it is worthless to say the least, and the list is endless. I like either foam or fiberglass, we've done fiberglass blown in the walls of my shop, but put bats on the ceiling of the attic area.
Every area is different, my area foam is eight to ten times higher priced than fiberglass for the same R value, so its not cheap by any means, but we do use the closed cell as a vapor barrier on some of the buildings we've done, been around the open cell some too, which is far better insulation that any cellulose in my opinion.
My current house is insulated with rock wool insulation, which was done long before any fiberglass was invented, its held up great over the years. We've just done my folks house remodel project about four years ago, the old fiberglass we took out of the walls was about like new, to save money they used cellulose blown in the their attic, its already shrunk by half in height, and some area's have absorbed moisture and should be replaced.
About any place rents out the fiberglass blowers and you can do it yourself to save money, just wear some protective clothing and be prepared to itch some for a few days after doing it.
Every area is different, my area foam is eight to ten times higher priced than fiberglass for the same R value, so its not cheap by any means, but we do use the closed cell as a vapor barrier on some of the buildings we've done, been around the open cell some too, which is far better insulation that any cellulose in my opinion.
My current house is insulated with rock wool insulation, which was done long before any fiberglass was invented, its held up great over the years. We've just done my folks house remodel project about four years ago, the old fiberglass we took out of the walls was about like new, to save money they used cellulose blown in the their attic, its already shrunk by half in height, and some area's have absorbed moisture and should be replaced.
About any place rents out the fiberglass blowers and you can do it yourself to save money, just wear some protective clothing and be prepared to itch some for a few days after doing it.
18
Fire Wood / Re: length of wood
« on: September 27, 2014, 11:24:34 AM »
My kids decided to have long and large wood, much less cutting and splitting, I cut my portion shorter and split it a lot smaller as well, made for easier handling for myself or my wife, turns out all my short and split stuff was always gone when it came for the us older farts to load the furnace. So about came a decree, if you cut it and split it, or don't think its necessary, the wood you were in charge of cutting and handling was off limits to anyone else, after the first year, now everything is cut in that 16-20 inch length, and split small enough for anyone to handle. It makes for easier handling and being able to stuff the furnace full easier for long times between loading and there's harmony back in the ranks, every once in a while a large chunk gets through and is left for either when the furnace is empty and there's help around to load them, or the splitter gets hooked up the skid steer and someone has at it to make it more of a manageable size.
19
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Closing down
« on: September 27, 2014, 07:20:23 AM »
Sorry to hear anyone go out because of regulations, but before I'd do that, I'd consider sticking it out a while longer, things always have to get about so bad before getting better again in any subject. Everyone is scrambling to figure out what the future holds for the wood burning industry now or will be in the future, those that figure it out and hang in there will be the survivors in the end. Not everyone will survive the ordeal, but plenty will, wood has always been burned and will always be burned, just how the equipment that does the burning will change is all, not all regulation is bad, most but not all, time will determine which list this is on, and if the regulation will stand the test of time. Plenty of regulation has come and gone over the years, some is proven to not work, or science takes time to catch up with regulations, however you want to view it is up to you, but I always tend to want to hang in till the end of anything, you know, just to see who's there with me and how the whole deal turned out. Just a different opinion to ponder over.
20
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: top loading owb's
« on: September 27, 2014, 06:53:51 AM »
I"m in Iowa, I've just been tossing the idea around somewhat, but I'm not spending anything like the 41k, let alone the 71k, most of those boilers are over a million or two btu's and far larger than my needs, was just wondering if the concept worked and how efficient they are. I've talked to several salesmen and they claim production for that 500,000-800-000 btu units production can't meet demand and customers wanting them can't get those units, one claimed he had over a 40 people on a waiting list for top loaders right now and is getting one or two more each week. Not sure if its sales hype or not, but I've talked to a couple people in my area who are wondering the same thing I am, do they work, how efficient are they and what's the long term durability of them.
I could save having to split 90 percent of what I currently split, and save a lot of chainsaw work just to fit the stuff in managable size to hand feed a boiler, the outcome would be the same, heating builidings, but the labor savings would amount to a lot over a decade or more, not yet sure if its worth the cost, but asking many questions.
The models and makes woodbutcher posted I can't find any information on anywhere, have seen several other makers units in video's or on their websites, but none in person.
I could save having to split 90 percent of what I currently split, and save a lot of chainsaw work just to fit the stuff in managable size to hand feed a boiler, the outcome would be the same, heating builidings, but the labor savings would amount to a lot over a decade or more, not yet sure if its worth the cost, but asking many questions.
The models and makes woodbutcher posted I can't find any information on anywhere, have seen several other makers units in video's or on their websites, but none in person.
21
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: home built insulated pex
« on: September 27, 2014, 06:34:04 AM »
I'd second the five wrap idea myself, drain tile, solid not perfereated is water tight, also bug and worm tight, gophers and mice will eat into it if they are inclined to do so. Tile has been around for mearly 50 years now, has undergone dozens of forumula change to get it to where it is today to hold up for the long term, no foam has ever undergone testing of that use ever from what I've been told and understand, not saying its a bad product to bury uncovered, just saying its not been tested being buried uncovered or has decades of testing and studies behind it, not to mention forumla changes to meet and match that application.
Also, its a one time application, one time use, I've dug my logstor up twice and relocated the funace twice, might end up doing a third time shortly and every time the logstor has been fine, we just hand dig near the line and uncover it and move it to its new location and lay it to grade and put dirt back over it again.
Some may ask why it was moved, simple, we moved and I took it with us, and then we had a water leak, along with a broken tile line that needed repair so we moved it slightly out of the way to do the repairs and then put it back in place, next move might be once a building is torn down to pour a new pad for it making moving around the furnace much nicer and for snow removal to be much easier.
Also, its a one time application, one time use, I've dug my logstor up twice and relocated the funace twice, might end up doing a third time shortly and every time the logstor has been fine, we just hand dig near the line and uncover it and move it to its new location and lay it to grade and put dirt back over it again.
Some may ask why it was moved, simple, we moved and I took it with us, and then we had a water leak, along with a broken tile line that needed repair so we moved it slightly out of the way to do the repairs and then put it back in place, next move might be once a building is torn down to pour a new pad for it making moving around the furnace much nicer and for snow removal to be much easier.
22
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / top loading owb's
« on: September 26, 2014, 04:46:35 AM »
Been asking anyone I can about these models, anyone have first hand experience with them, pro's or con's of them.
I'm looking at larger units of over 500,000 btu's and we've been thinking hard on not having to split most of the stuff we'd load, saving me a lot of time every year handling 30-60 cords of wood, everyone seems to have an opinion so I may as well ask everyone here.
Haven't decided on anything yet, just asking the usual stupid questions to try to figure out what's the best way to go into the future for our needs. I know these units are really new on the market and none are anywhere near me.
Also who owns logboiler?
I'm looking at larger units of over 500,000 btu's and we've been thinking hard on not having to split most of the stuff we'd load, saving me a lot of time every year handling 30-60 cords of wood, everyone seems to have an opinion so I may as well ask everyone here.
Haven't decided on anything yet, just asking the usual stupid questions to try to figure out what's the best way to go into the future for our needs. I know these units are really new on the market and none are anywhere near me.
Also who owns logboiler?
23
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: home built insulated pex
« on: September 26, 2014, 04:37:10 AM »
Foam in a can is open cell foam, if you use it as you intend to do, open cell isn't water resistant, and with drilling holes in the pvc, your creating a drain tile that will hold and absorb water, totally defeating your process completely.
I'd recommend the insulated pipe such as logstor but if your determined to use pvc, take some boards and drill holes in them, cut them into a circle to fit into the pvc and use those to hold the lines centered, drill your holes and before your done, wrap the holes in the pvc up completely with tile tape, not duct tape or anything else, tile tape is water resistant and won't rot or decay under ground or let water into the holes in the line. Glue the pvc together very well and then wrap those couplers in tile tape as well. You'll also need at least six inch pvc, not four inch because open cell foam has half the insulation value per inch as closed cell foam, or if you use four inch pvc, you line has half the insulation as logstor does. Where it comes up by the furnace, either have it come directly into the insulation/protected area of the furnace or if it has to come up outside, make sure you have an angle fitting on the line, to keep water and moisture out of the line, open cell won't shed water if you have the opening facing upwards and rain gets into it. With all the costs involved I can't imagine its cheaper than logstor, not to mention your time involved. Before I'd do that I'd buy the five wrap line that badger pipe sells but that's just me.
I'd recommend the insulated pipe such as logstor but if your determined to use pvc, take some boards and drill holes in them, cut them into a circle to fit into the pvc and use those to hold the lines centered, drill your holes and before your done, wrap the holes in the pvc up completely with tile tape, not duct tape or anything else, tile tape is water resistant and won't rot or decay under ground or let water into the holes in the line. Glue the pvc together very well and then wrap those couplers in tile tape as well. You'll also need at least six inch pvc, not four inch because open cell foam has half the insulation value per inch as closed cell foam, or if you use four inch pvc, you line has half the insulation as logstor does. Where it comes up by the furnace, either have it come directly into the insulation/protected area of the furnace or if it has to come up outside, make sure you have an angle fitting on the line, to keep water and moisture out of the line, open cell won't shed water if you have the opening facing upwards and rain gets into it. With all the costs involved I can't imagine its cheaper than logstor, not to mention your time involved. Before I'd do that I'd buy the five wrap line that badger pipe sells but that's just me.
24
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / EPA qualified boilers
« on: September 26, 2014, 04:17:41 AM »
I've been told a lot of information but I just heard a new one yesterday, is it true that the EPA certification only applies to btu output of 300,000 and below and nothing above that rating is even regulated or will be?
Can anyone shed any light on the issue of a pressure vessel being regulated differently than an open air system, I guess the basic question I have is this, are both types tested the same as far as emissions and how the boiler works, only that the pressurized system has to meet the criteria of a pressure vessel.
Can anyone shed any light on the issue of a pressure vessel being regulated differently than an open air system, I guess the basic question I have is this, are both types tested the same as far as emissions and how the boiler works, only that the pressurized system has to meet the criteria of a pressure vessel.
25
Shaver Furnace / Re: New Chest Type Top Loading Outdoor Wood Furnace
« on: September 23, 2014, 03:58:23 AM »
How many units does shaver have out in the top loading version, both in the round firebox and also the square version?
26
Fire Wood / Re: firewood storage
« on: September 21, 2014, 07:22:01 PM »
Nice storage idea and photo's to go along with them.
28
Fire Wood / Re: firewood storage
« on: September 17, 2014, 05:50:51 AM »
So you guys with carports or pole sheds, is your boiler in it as well, just outside it so you carry it out of the storage and into the furnace, or haul it when needed to the boiler?
29
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: What makes a stove junk?
« on: September 16, 2014, 11:20:34 AM »
Why on earth would anyone burn or attempt to burn car batteries? Then the next question is why are gassers so much worse than others for leaking?
30
Fire Wood / Re: firewood storage
« on: September 16, 2014, 05:15:11 AM »
How do you keep snow and rain off the wood?