Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: heat550 on September 12, 2017, 01:36:36 AM
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I was thinking I have a 50 foot run boiler to house and Im going to use insul seal . and I was looking at using 1 inch copper tubing (flexable copper in a roll )
instead of pex al pex . Has any one done it this way ? cost is twice as much . But it would lasting longer. any insite be great .
Heat550
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Am I understanding you to say that you want to bury soft copper underground? The heat loss would be worse than PAP or regular Pex.
I've seen lots of pinholed copper tubing and brass fittings (on domestic lines tho), never in Pex tubing. Pex is very, very durable. All the delaminated Pex I've heard talked about was PAP.
Just my humble opinion. :)
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Had a guy that bought a stove from me bury soft copper. Was told by his plumber pex was no good. 6 months later was buying insulated pex. Heat loss bad even with insulseal.
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Thats why radiators were always copper, very good at transferring heat. While you get some heat loss from Pex, it doesn’t transfer heat anywhere near as efficiently as copper, while pex would suck for a heat exchanger or radiator, its very good in underground lines as it has an insulating value in itself.
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Well if I use 1 inch copper tubing I can put insulation around it the black stuff inside the insul seal . It be good for ever no worry of over heating either . and easy to put in insul seal . Im still waiting to hear why its a bad idea . besides heat coming off pipe . Insul seal
is R15 and then with the air space in the 4 inch pvc is be over R15 2 inchs of foam and 1 inch of air mite add R4 . anymore thoughts before I buy the 1 inch copper tubing ? :bag:
Heat550
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Wait, why do you want to use copper vs logstor/rehau/thermopex?
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Look at the details on heat the copper can Handel compared to pex Al pex . It's makes system last longer . And I need 10 GPM flow. Short run 50 feet only needs 2-60 foot coppper. rolls
Heat550
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My 1” Pex was 15 years old when I replaced it with Logstor, I used some of it in the shop and buried the rest to a hydrant.
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Copper will probably work fine. If you get much particulate in the water it will wear out the copper much faster than pex.
I would use 1" pex-al-pex or 1-1/4" pex if I was doing it.
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I missed why you want to use pex al pex or copper vs regular pex???
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I think the reason may be to be a full 1" ID. That is why I mentioned 1-1/4" pex.
Pex-al-pex and copper wouldn't have the expansion issue to deal with that pex would but with the amount of space in the Insul-Seal, it probably wouldn't make any difference.
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I've never seen Pex B fail unless it's in direct sunlight and that was the old milky clear stuff. . We've used it since about '96. Amazingly durable stuff. And 1 1/4" crimp fittings aren't as uncommon as they used to be.
You mentioned the heat it can handle- you won't be over 212 F in an open system and boiling water at zero pressure never hurt Pex.
But if you do copper I'd love to hear your results. Interesting.
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If you want true 1 inch Id just got with logstor 1 inch. No need to reinvent the wheel.
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If you want true 1 inch Id just got with logstor 1 inch. No need to reinvent the wheel.
It sounds like he already got Insulseal insulation. He is only looking for bare pipe to put in it. I don't know of anyone that sells bare 32mm pex.
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I re read the posts and he doesn't say that he's already bought the insul seal. I am just confused why he's trying to re invent the wheel here.
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Yes Insul seal I'm using . Because it's only 50 foot run copper tube should work perfect . See this install is at my Brother's .. I have 50 foot run of insul seal on my system at my house with pex Al pex . I know for a fact that trench has 0 water temp drop I tested it for 5 years temp at boiler is exactly the same in house. Now to make it even better I'm going to use 1 inch coil tube copper L in the trench inside Insul seal no worry about pap bubbling or o rings and rings clamps. I can even use blue silicone hose if needed as they make 1.112 ID hose . So really it's easyer then dealing with pex Al pex . After the trench it's all going to be 1 inch copper inside house also. I was just seeing if there was any unforeseen issues doing it this way . I'm installing it with a 20 year + service life . And yes I know regular heater hose lasted 17 years on one of my exchangers. So I wouldn't be afraid to use the blue silicone semi radiator hose. If I need to.
And far as logstor .. radiating heat is a issue 1 inch of foam is only R7 max thats not enough your heating trench more then you think
I'm dealing with heavy clay in our area yes you dig a hole you just made a pond . Take logstor coil it in pool of water and fire up the boiler see how fast water temp in pool goes up. That's radiant heat loss. Yes some might say I'm to picky but it's true. If your in light soil this might not be a issues here it's a issue. These are just my findings with location and my install others may very. I'm still open to any info why copper tubing in trench is a negative. Besides it's on sale at local builder store 👍
Heat550
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Do you think I should use K the thickest copper tubing ? I can get that also . Under only pump pressure it be hard to
believe I could wear copper out most there be from boiler is 2-3 psi because I have the weighted ball heatmor style .
and most pump pressure would be is 13 psi . My only copper torcher test was we had 150ft going to the barn for 35 years
and there was cast iron in pump house that was at 40 psi never had a issue that was copper tubing .. rust isn't a issue on this boiler it will be running antifreeze . Yes flow charts got me on to running all copper also . :thumbup:
Heat550
Copper will probably work fine. If you get much particulate in the water it will wear out the copper much faster than pex.
I would use 1" pex-al-pex or 1-1/4" pex if I was doing it.
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I've seen very little copper run under ground and doubt others have either, so there is very little experiential knowledge to be shared. We run a lot of regular 1" wrapped pex and I know a lot of people on this forum like logstor, but it's worked for us and we know what to expect when we do an install. Sounds like you've had experience with it, but your charting ground we haven't been on so we're waiting to see what happens. Can't give a lot of advise.
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I laid 60' of logstor in clay soil that was actually a trench of water while I was back filling it. I have 0 heat loss from the boiler to the HX in my basement. I'm sure there is some, but nothing that I can measure. I was standing on the Logstor so it wouldn't float as I was back filling the trench. I wouldn't recommend planning an install through water, but I have had zero issues with the install. Copper has a much higher heat transfer than pex-al-pex. I would not want the entire underground run to be fighting itself. Copper is used for baseboards and radiators in vehicles for a reason. It is extremely efficient at heat transfer.
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One other issue with copper is corrosion. I have seen copper corrode especially when connected to dissimilar materials. That is one reason they use di-electric unions on water heaters.
You have no issue with possible corrosion with pex. I would be using 1 1/4" pex if it were me and save money doing it.
I have 1 1/4" pex for my primary loop in the house using mono-flow tee's (thanks Slim) and no problems with any crimp fittings.
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Search about copper tubing they use it for ice milt also soft copper tubing . Its just cost that gets out of hand .
Im learning as I go and far as the blue silicone heater hose they make like 3 different sizes of 1 inch . any Napa store can order it
for you as its a Eaton product . Im sure cost of the bigger 1.113 and bigger cost more but its 2 ply also . Im now reseaching best clamps to use on that blue silicone hose . really old style clamps you tighten with screw driver can cause damage . and ones you use like on a car spring style would be better they make some dam thick ones also and takes a good size pliers to get them on there .
Have any of you tried different clamps on the silicone hose ? Also I was thinking of half a flare on soft copper and sand of sharp edges.
Just a bit of a catch of the copper So the hose stays in place after clamps are on . I know there's a die for a fare tool that can used to make like smooth rounded fold . I just need to search more maybe . :thumbup:
Heat550
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I will post all temp readings when I get it fired up . Im just supplying 109,000 BTUs to the house 22x22 exchanger Fan on furnance is 4 speed max being 1600 CFM and domestic water heater side arm . and a Heatmor 200css . goals are 0 heat loss and only firing it one time a day . colder then -10f will be 2 times a day . heating 3800 sq ft house . Heatmor 200 css is rated at 5000 sqft 200,000 btus out put . and the big goal average 8-9 cord a year . house at 72f . after its installed will be the tell all :thumbup: the house is all 2x6 walls and well insulated .
Heat550
eta on fire up is about a month out . I will post pictures also putting boiler together and install of the new base with new weldment
is going to be epic LOL chain hoist and oliver 770 with sky crane attachment with chain hoist . :thumbup:
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Intall is getting more interesting now we're going with 80 feet insulseal with 2 - 1 inch copper tubes with extra insulation on the copper before sliding into insul seal . It will make insulseal over R 20
Heat550