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Messages - Midnight Farms

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Plumbing / Re: fitting heat exchanger into furnace
« on: February 07, 2015, 06:07:19 PM »
So, if it is one large heat exchanger, I could put a bypass valve on it that would only send hot water through the exchanger if either of the furnaces called for heat?

Plumbing / Re: fitting heat exchanger into furnace
« on: February 06, 2015, 10:00:50 PM »
Is this practice of putting the heat exchanger in the cold air return a common one?

I have two furnaces with AC coils, and very little room. They are fed by a common air return. Could I put a large heat exchanger in there to service them both?

Risks? Concerns?

Plumbing / Re: Creating own underground pipe
« on: January 28, 2015, 04:36:34 PM »
Sounds like some confidence here.

If I put PEX through a drain pipe for protection, do I need to foam in it?


Plumbing / Creating own underground pipe
« on: January 27, 2015, 07:24:37 PM »
As I have been looking into what I need for flow, it has become apparent that I need dual 1 1/4 inch pipes to the house. I have not found a 4 x 1 1/4 inch pex underground pipe in closed cell insulation. I am thinking about creating my own. Thoughts?

1 1/4 pex - about $1.50 / foot x 4
Sewer drain - about $1 / foot x 2 (4 inch by 10ft is $10.80 at lowes)
Spray foam - calling local guy tomorrow

I will spray a base of closed cell foam into my trench. Then my thought is to put the feed lines in the same pipe and return lines in another. Pipe is really only to protect pex a bit. I will spray into the sewer pipes as I construct it. I will lay the pipes on the bed of foam.  I will then spray a good layer of foam around the pipes to secure them in place. I am thinking about putting an extra pipe in with this to run electric wire in and/or run a feed line of water to the burner.

My assumption is that commercial pipe will be at least $10 to $12 per foot for each line. That means a total of $20 to $24 a foot. As long as I can do foam at a few dollars a foot, it should save me a ton, and provide a better insulated solution.

Any concerns? Anyone done anything similar? Does there need to be insulation in the pipe, or can it be open and rely on the outer insulation?


Earth Outdoor Wood Furnaces / Re: Earth Outdoor 505
« on: January 26, 2015, 07:38:19 PM »
Thank you to you both...  I was starting to wonder if anyone was going to stick up for this brand.

And thank you for the words about the closed cell insulation.  It's very tempting to go for the economic solution.  In the end, it is gonna cost more!

Anything else I should know about Earth?
The sales rep talked me out of the burner with the auger to get out coals.  You guys agree?


Plumbing / Re: Manifold system off main line
« on: January 22, 2015, 07:18:32 PM »
I have continued to look into the Manifold idea.  Unfortunately, I can't find any that are rated for more than 2.3 gpm out of each line.  The Manifold itself is rated for a total of 15 to 18gpm.  I am assuming, 2.3gpm to a furnace probably isn't enough.  Thoughts?

Second question: The dual loop idea.  Is there calculators I can use to determine if my pipe diameter, distance from burner, and devices will pull too much temperature, thus sending the water back to the OWB to cool?  The information is 150ft x 1 1/4inch from burner to house, 50ft x 1 1/4inch from wall to furnace (160K BTU Water/Air Exchanger), 10 ft x 1 from furnace to water heater (Brazed Plate Exchanger 5 inch x 12 inch x 20 plate, 97K BTU), 50 ft to wall, then 150ft back to burner.

Lastly- Is there any issue/advantage/disadvantage of going from a 1 1/4 supply and return line, down to the 1 inch for the heat exchange devices? Or is it best to utilize a 1 inch supply and return line to match the equipment?


Plumbing / Re: Should i buy the Pex from my OWB dealer?
« on: January 22, 2015, 05:38:53 PM »
Thanks for starting this.  I am also looking at Insulated Pipe, and can't decide which direction to go.  Seeing as I'd like to run four (4) x  1 1/4 pex to the house so I can have 2 supply and 2 return, price and quality of the pipe is important.  Earth Outdoor has quoted me a price for their pipe which seems to be cheap compared to others, however, I am not sure of the quality.  Rahau at $12/ft is a bit pricey.  Any other options out there folks?  I like the idea of the closed cell products - is there a list of suppliers?

General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / System Design Experts???
« on: January 22, 2015, 05:33:58 PM »
I haven't had good luck finding an installer in Ohio, so I believe we have decided to take on the install ourselves.  I believe we are capable of the work, however, I know that the best project is one that most of the work is done upfront in the design.  I am a little worried about designing the system myself.  I want it to be right the first time.

Does anyone know any knowledgeable folks in the Ohio area that might have the ability to help design a system? 


Anyone on here wanna take a crack at looking over what I have already planned for, and help design a system from the ground up?

I've tried to upload a picture of what I was thinking, however it says the upload folder is full...  I've tried Gif and jpg.  Do we need permissions to upload pictures?


Earth Outdoor Wood Furnaces / Earth Outdoor 505
« on: January 22, 2015, 05:20:47 PM »
Looking at purchasing a Earth Outdoor 505.  Talked to the sales rep, and got some pricing, but that's about all I got from them.  I didn't get the impression that they care much to "design" as system, just want to sell the burner.  They were ready to sell insulated pipe - it seems they have the ability to make their own, as he was able to quote me, custom to my anticipated need. 

So...  Does anyone have the 505 want to tell me the pros/cons of it that you have seen so far?
Anyone utilize Earth Outdoor insulated pipe?  Any good?


Plumbing / Re: Taco 009 replacement
« on: January 19, 2015, 06:18:39 PM »
It is 3 speed. At the stove is better.

RSI, why does the fact that the pump is a 3 speed affect why it should be at the burner or not?

Plumbing / Pump at the OWB or closer to destination?
« on: January 09, 2015, 08:24:18 PM »
What is everyone's opinion on placement of the pump(s)? Is there benefit to putting the pump inside the house and allow it to pull from the OWB?  My assumption is you would not need a pump at the OWB also correct?

Plumbing / Re: Sidearm vs Plate Exchanger
« on: January 09, 2015, 09:11:09 AM »
You don't just bypass the Water Tank when the plate exchanger is in the mix, and the boiler is fired?
Wouldn't this act as an on demand system basically then?

Plumbing / Re: Manifold system off main line
« on: January 08, 2015, 07:59:23 PM »
Thanks Wood Nutt...  that helps.  I guess my question about that ball valve specifically is do you lose much (if any) flow from it?

This option with basically 4 loops is great, however, that is a lot of extra insulated pipe.  And at $5 to $10 a foot for it, and lengths of 150 feet to the house, it starts to add up.  If I could do it with a large line to the Manifold at the house, I am assuming it would be cheaper, and potentially a more controllable option.
Any other thoughts about Manifolds at the house?  Anyone have pictures or other links for these?


Plumbing / Re: Manifold system off main line
« on: January 07, 2015, 08:48:06 AM »
Are there any flow issues created by plumbing a valve right at the back of the furnace (after the pump)?

This idea would allow the use of only two pumps, however you would have to figure out how to have two different sensors driving the same pump (one on the house lines and one for the greenhouse or pool lines).  May be that you just flip a switch there too.

Plumbing / Re: Manifold system off main line
« on: January 06, 2015, 09:25:42 PM »
The house is a large house.  No mistaking that.  The BTUs on each of the furnaces is either 113K or 142K - Not sure.  The house was built with many redundancies, and each furnace supports a zone of the house.  One Furnace covers the living room, kitchen and dining room.  The other supports the bedrooms and library.  When one system was down, the other was able to cover the entire house - decently.  The house structure is robust and the insulation is beyond standard.

Seems I can't upload a file - I will list it here...
Burner - Still deciding (Looking at Heatmor 400DCSS and Earth Outdoor 505)
- System #1
--- 170 ft to the house under ground
--- 50 ft in basement to the wall I plan to put the manifold on, 5 ft from each furnace and water heater.
--- Manifold
----- Furnace #1 - Water/Air 20" x 20" - 145K BTU
----- Furnace #2 - Water/Air 20" x 20" - 145K BTU
----- Hot Water - Plate Exchanger - 20 Plate - 5" x 12" - 95K BTU
----- Garage - Water/Air 18" x 18" - 120K BTU w/box fan
----- Extra position for expansion or bypass return (Thanks Judds)

- System #2
--- 40 ft to the Greenhouse
----- Hot Water - Plate Exchanger - 20 Plate - 5" x 12" - 95K BTU
----- Note: I will be utilizing a manifold system from the Hot Water tank to service the under-bed heating system. "Think" radiant "bed" heat for gardens.
--- 130 ft from Greenhouse to 35K Gallon Pool (Equipment location)
----- Shell & Tube Exchange - 600K
--- 170 ft back to burner

I was planning to utilize 1 1/4 inch insulated in ground for all outdoor lines.  I assumed I would need large pumps on both as well.
I don't expect to run both systems at the same time.  The house will be Late Fall through Early Spring.  The Greenhouse will be Early Spring and the Pool will be Spring and Late Summer. 

The other option I have is to run two sets of lines to the house.  Can manipulate how the loop is done based on the pull.  IE, set it up from Furnace #1 to Furnace #2 on the first, and Hot Water to the garage on the second.  If the return temps don't work out...  do some swapping.

What other information can I provide?
Once I get set on a "design", I will be asking for help on what specific equipment. 
Thanks for your help!

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