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Author Topic: Creating own underground pipe  (Read 7231 times)

Midnight Farms

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Creating own underground pipe
« on: January 27, 2015, 07:24:37 PM »

As I have been looking into what I need for flow, it has become apparent that I need dual 1 1/4 inch pipes to the house. I have not found a 4 x 1 1/4 inch pex underground pipe in closed cell insulation. I am thinking about creating my own. Thoughts?

1 1/4 pex - about $1.50 / foot x 4
Sewer drain - about $1 / foot x 2 (4 inch by 10ft is $10.80 at lowes)
Spray foam - calling local guy tomorrow

I will spray a base of closed cell foam into my trench. Then my thought is to put the feed lines in the same pipe and return lines in another. Pipe is really only to protect pex a bit. I will spray into the sewer pipes as I construct it. I will lay the pipes on the bed of foam.  I will then spray a good layer of foam around the pipes to secure them in place. I am thinking about putting an extra pipe in with this to run electric wire in and/or run a feed line of water to the burner.

My assumption is that commercial pipe will be at least $10 to $12 per foot for each line. That means a total of $20 to $24 a foot. As long as I can do foam at a few dollars a foot, it should save me a ton, and provide a better insulated solution.

Any concerns? Anyone done anything similar? Does there need to be insulation in the pipe, or can it be open and rely on the outer insulation?

Thanks!
-Nick
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willieG

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 07:53:08 PM »

if I am not mistaken, the folks over at z supply can get larger sized pipes. not sure of the configurations they can supply but it might not hurt to send them an e-mail and ask them?

I know that the owner has been on here before but I don't know his name? perhaps others on here do?
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mlappin

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 08:54:17 PM »

If I was to try something similar I think I'd get the trench dug, compact the bottom very well then place a layer of sand in, then some heavy mil plastic, do your foam/pipe thingy then close it up with the plastic and place more sand on top.

What you're suggesting seems to be all the rage over to hearth.com
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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 09:51:07 AM »

I think ya need to look at the main line ...like fuel that u pay for up front, i'm so tight that I squeak went I walk and I got off  my +20$ a foot pex ...and ain't looked back.

GCTerpfan

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 02:10:52 PM »

I did something similar with my lines.  I dug my trench about 3' to 3 1/2' deep, put 4" drain tile in the bottom of the trench and covered it in about 6" of clean stone.  I then laid my pex lines on top of the stone and went ahead and got everything hooked up in the house, I left the lines at the boiler unhooked and a little long to be able to have some play in the lines as we spray foamed them.  I also taped foam blocks in between my lines every 10' or so to keep my supply and return lines from touching.

When the spray foamer showed up we simply lifted the lines up off of the gravel and sprayed about 2-3" of closed cell spray foam directly on top of the stone, he then laid the lines back down in the wet foam and sprayed another 2-3" on the top and sides of the lines.   After the spray foam cured I backfilled to the top of the foam with more clean stone, I backfilled with clean stone so that any water that gets in the trench will migrate down to the drain tile and out.  The closed cell foam is supposed to be watertight at 2" thick but I didn't want to take the chance of any water laying in the trench and absorbing into the foam. I then backfilled the rest of the way with dirt.

My boiler is about 180' from my house, this ended up costing me about $9 per foot which includes the pex, spray foam, stone and drain tile.  I have some pictures and even a short video of them spraying the foam. If I have time and any one is interested I can post them.
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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 03:02:16 PM »

I did something similar with my lines.  I dug my trench about 3' to 3 1/2' deep, put 4" drain tile in the bottom of the trench and covered it in about 6" of clean stone.  I then laid my pex lines on top of the stone and went ahead and got everything hooked up in the house, I left the lines at the boiler unhooked and a little long to be able to have some play in the lines as we spray foamed them.  I also taped foam blocks in between my lines every 10' or so to keep my supply and return lines from touching.

When the spray foamer showed up we simply lifted the lines up off of the gravel and sprayed about 2-3" of closed cell spray foam directly on top of the stone, he then laid the lines back down in the wet foam and sprayed another 2-3" on the top and sides of the lines.   After the spray foam cured I backfilled to the top of the foam with more clean stone, I backfilled with clean stone so that any water that gets in the trench will migrate down to the drain tile and out.  The closed cell foam is supposed to be watertight at 2" thick but I didn't want to take the chance of any water laying in the trench and absorbing into the foam. I then backfilled the rest of the way with dirt.

My boiler is about 180' from my house, this ended up costing me about $9 per foot which includes the pex, spray foam, stone and drain tile.  I have some pictures and even a short video of them spraying the foam. If I have time and any one is interested I can post them.

Have you measured for any temp loss while in use through those lines?  How's it performing?  How many years you been using it?

I'd love to see the video.  Youtube can be easy to post to.
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Midnight Farms

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 04:36:34 PM »

Sounds like some confidence here.

If I put PEX through a drain pipe for protection, do I need to foam in it?

Thanks!
Nick
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willieG

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 04:55:12 PM »

its just me, but before I spent 9 or 10 bucks on foam in a trench without a protective coating I would spend that money on a 3 or 5 wrap product in a tile
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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 05:37:14 PM »

Did that 9$include your extra labor And time ?
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jerkash

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 04:59:36 AM »

I've been reading post on this site for years and have seen where people make their own.  Some work and a lot wish they had bought the good stuff.  If it were me, I would try to find some good stuff already made up and not make my own.
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slimjim

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 05:05:07 AM »

As stated many times on here as well as many other forums, IF you must save some money on your set up, the pipe is not the place to cheap out!!!!!
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GCTerpfan

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 07:28:24 AM »

The pictures and video from my install are in the post below.

Quote
its just me, but before I spent 9 or 10 bucks on foam in a trench without a protective coating I would spend that money on a 3 or 5 wrap product in a tile

I did a LOT of research on pipe before I decided to do this, I read so many horror stories of people buying 3 or 5 wrap products and finding out the drain tile had a small leak which allowed the pipe to fill with water, soak the insulation and become worthless.  I also saw this happen first hand with a cousin who purchased a high quality 5 wrap product, he was very careful when installing it but still ended up with a pipe that leaked and within two years had a bare strip of ground with no snow all winter and water seeping into his basement from the pipe.  I had to install this line across a very wet part of my yard and I decided the foam in place method with was best for me.  I am not sure how much experience you have with closed cell spray foam but it cures almost rock hard and in my case the foam is protected by a layer of clean stone. I also wanted to heat two building that were side by side but I only have one pump on my stove, so my line runs from the boiler to my house, the return comes out of my house and follows the supply trench for about 30 feet before making a 90 degree left bend to 30' run to my garage, the return from my garage runs 30' back to the original trench and makes a 90 degree bend to the left and follows the house supply back to the stove.  I would not have had the ability to do this with a premade product and would have had to install a 'Y' at the stove and run two separate lines to each building which would have doubled the amount of pipe I needed.

Quote
Have you measured for any temp loss while in use through those lines?  How's it performing?  How many years you been using it?

The total loop that supply's my house and garage is close to 400' of pipe, when there is no call for heat I see about a 3 degree temp drop between my supply and return at the stone.  The water leaves stove at 180 and returns at 177.  I contribute at least some of this drop to the 40' of pipe and two plate heat exchangers that are un-insulated in my basement.  This is my first year with the stove so I am not sure about longevity but there are several people on the hearth forum that have used this method and have had it installed for longer.

Quote
Did that 9$include your extra labor And time ?

I am not sure there was any extra labor or time involved.  I had to dig the trench regardless of what I installed.  I also had to back fill the trench regardless of what I installed.  Those were the two most time consuming things.  I had to throw the drain tile in the bottom, backfill with a layer of stone and then lay the pex on top and wait for the spray foam guy to show.  I have read some stories about people trying to unroll and wrestle logstor into the trench, so this method may have actually saved me a little time.  It may have added a little time backfilling with stone instead of just pushing the dirt back in but I enjoy the time on my tractor, plus I needed the fill dirt that was left over for other parts of my yard.

I agree 100% with the people that say the pipe is not the place to cheap out, that is why I really wanted my lines insulated with closed cell foam and not with a wrapped product that could have a leaking drain tile and get wet insulation.  I priced both thermopex and logster at multiple places and both of them were over $17 per foot delivered to my house.  I just couldn't afford that, plus I wouldn't have had the flexibility to run the lines to two building like I did and I still would have had the cost of the stone and drain tile because I wanted a french drain across that part of my yard anyway.  I put a lot of thought and planning into doing it this way and it was the best method for my particular situation.  It may not be for everyone.  Time will tell how it holds up but I am really happy with the results so far.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:24:50 AM by GCTerpfan »
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GCTerpfan

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 08:01:46 AM »

I realized my link might not work.  Here are the pictures:





and video (not sure this will work):



If not try this: http://vid1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah301/GCTerpfan/Boiler%20Pipe%20Install/20140905_1037051_zpskpymnr4v.mp4
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agriffinjd

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 09:01:17 AM »

 :post:

I think it looks nice.  Thanks for including the video.
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mlappin

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Re: Creating own underground pipe
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 11:22:57 AM »

Not to nit pick, but I rented a trencher that was set up for a 6 inch trench, very little backfilling then. Once it settles I won't hardly notice it when zipping across with the ZTR. Can't even begin to say that even if I had took the time to install the 12" bucket on the mini excavator.

Logstor isn't that hard to handle. Took mine and laid the coil down in the yard, drove a piece of pipe in the ground inside the coil, placed a piece of sch 40 pipe over that, then chained the top of the pipe to the skid steer bucket so it couldn't lean over, took a one inch strap wrapped that around the end of the coil, hooked it to my Polaris Ranger and drove way, once it was all uncoiled placed cement blocks on the ends to hold it down. Let it sit in the sun a few days so it wanted to lay straight, placed in trench, backfilled, no problem. I had a much harder time handling the 1 1/4" triple wrapped pex sans tile that I used in the shop for each heat exchanger. You want something that's really fun to handle try messing with the 4" plastic hose that's used on a hard hose irrigation system.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 11:26:21 AM by mlappin »
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