Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: userdk on March 16, 2015, 05:36:24 PM
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Many of us on this forum have very limited experience, or exposure to gasification outdoor wood furnaces. If you have a gasifier, please share your story with us. How long have you had it? Have you had any problems with it? How did you resolve those problems? If you were to give a word of advice to a new buyer, what would it be? How much maintenance does your furnace require? Do you have to burn dry wood? How dry? What do you burn? How long after start-up does it take for the gasification process to begin? How much ash do you get? How easy is it to remove? What brand do you have? How much wood do you burn? and etc.
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Oh boy, this should be a good one, I have run several gassers, WoodDoctor, Sequoyah Paradise, Empire, Portage and Main and very soon will be running 2 HeatMasters so as you can tell I have been around them a bit, I started with a WoodDoctor, Energy Converter they called it, what a great improvement over the conventional wood pigs, very clean visibly, enough to run without issue at several shows, at the time we were the only folks burning a wood boiler at any shows here in the northeast, they had some issues early on with solenoids sticking and burning out but then went to a Honeywell servo motor to open the draft and that issue disappeared, firebricks used as nozzles needed to be replaced every couple of years but this was an easy task, the biggest issue I saw with the line was that the manufacturers did not pay attention to the rotting out issue, there is lots of speculation about why they rotted out, I happen to think it was profit driven and they cheaped out on steel quality, had they addressed that issue early on they would more than likely still be around today with a top of the line unit!
Sequoyah Paradise, for the first run of gassers, this was a great unit, huge firebox, not as clean, only phase 1 so we were shut off here in Maine very quickly from being able to buy or sell them but aside from electronics issues with the solenoid and that darn love controller they were pretty reliable and would burn what you threw in, I sincerely wish they had retested for the phase 2 standards.
I do not want to make this long winded so I will reserve my comments on the others until some other folks have chimed in, my suggestion to all the manufacturers is to pay special attention to making your units last in the field, never mind the EPA test it can be overcome, build a simple, reliable, long lasting unit!
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Many of us on this forum have very limited experience, or exposure to gasification outdoor wood furnaces. If you have a gasifier, please share your story with us. How long have you had it? Have you had any problems with it? How did you resolve those problems? If you were to give a word of advice to a new buyer, what would it be? How much maintenance does your furnace require? Do you have to burn dry wood? How dry? What do you burn? How long after start-up does it take for the gasification process to begin? How much ash do you get? How easy is it to remove? What brand do you have? Rate your experience 1 to 10. and etc. etc. etc.
I have Central Boiler E-Classic 1400. I'm heating my 1840's farmhouse and DHW with it. I purchased it in the summer of 2011 and put it online in the fall of the same year. The first year of operation was THE learning curve. I thought I knew everything there was know about burning wood because we had wood stoves but these outdoor units are a different animal. Plus, it would have helped if I had read the owners manual but that goes against being guy because we don't read them. :-\ Anyway, from October 2011 through early January 2012 everything was running great until the fire kept going out. It did this at the most inopportune time - getting ready to out to dinner with friends, church, heading for work, or at 1:30am in the morning in early January with 15 degrees temps showing on the outdoor thermometer. That's when I decided to open the manual. After a half hour reading I discovered that there are many air holes surrounding the lower portion of the firebox. So, I go outdoors clear the firebox of the unburnt firewood, remove all dead coals and ash buildup and walla!, there they were all plugged with creosote. I spent the following 3 hours poking, scraping and some cursing trying to get them open. After I was satisfied that they were all clear I turned the unit on and felt for air flow. To say it was at it's minimum is an understatement. After a few minutes of cussing and cursing I went back to the manual to find that the primary air elbow in the rear needs to be serviced as well. To the back of the OWB, remove the back panel, open the combustion box where the blower is located and removed the elbow only to find it was about 90% plugged with creosote. I spent another hour and half cleaning that thing and the tube that allows air to get to the firebox. Once it was clear I checked the air flow in the firebox and lo and behold I had strong air flow. After reassembly I fired her up and she's been running great ever since. I shut her down in the early spring for the summer. As part of my maintenance, I spend about a half to three quarters of an hour every 2 or 3 weeks making sure the air holes are open and that the elbow is clear too. That means removing any unburnt firewood from the firebox, remove all hot coals (I keep them aside in a metal bucket to assist in getting the coal bed re-established) poking all the primary air holes (you have to get your upper torso in the fire box to reach the holes at the far end - plus, if it's really cold outside, you won't be for long) to remove any creosote build up and perhaps remove the primary elbow to check for any creosote build up. Once I'm satisfied that everything is clean again and have good air flow through the air holes, I toss in the hot coals I had set aside, toss a few pieces of kindling wood on top of that, toss any unburnt firewood on that and get the fire going again. I aid that by leaving the reaction chamber door open for a few minutes to provide a super updraft. That gets fire roaring in no time. After the fire is going really good I shut the reaction chamber door, close the fire box door and after 15 to 20 seconds later, I close the by-pass door. I'll check on it about 2 to 3 hours later to see how thing are going. I believe CB has an upgrade kit available that instead of having the welded in place the primary air holes panel, they are removable (similar to the E-Classic 1450's), aiding in the cleaning of creosote buildup; lessening the time and effort. I also believe they have an upgrade kit for the fusion chamber. I will be looking into them with my CB dealer to see what he has to offer.
My firewood it cut to 2 feet long and the pieces range from 4 to 8/10 inches in diameter. I burn all hard wood; maple, oak, beech, some birch, an occasional elm log will be found in the pile but not too many, thankfully. I try to stay about 2 to 3 years ahead of myself so the wood has plenty of time to season/dry. The last time I checked the moisture content it read somewhere around 22%. I try to keep it there. The OWB seems to run very nice at that range for me. Once I get the fire going and good bed of coals established, it doesn't take too long for the gasification process to happen. I cannot quantify it for you because I have never timed it. My best guess is 3 to 4 minutes depending the type of wood I put in it at that time.
As for any mechanical or electronic failures; I have none to report. This is my 4th heating season with it and it has run flawlessly for me. When I close her down for the summer at the end of April, I know I'll have to replace the fire door gasket. I noticed a few weeks ago that I'm seeing a bit of liquid creosote leaking from around the door onto the ground. I plan to take the time to inspect by-pass door gasket and reaction chamber gasket at the same time. I'll change them if it needs to be done. I have a spare circ, blower, solenoids, etc... on hand for the "just in case" scenario. Sorry for the long story but I thought it was important to share my first year of operation experiences with those who are contemplating a purchase of a gasser. Paying attention to detail and making sure the primary air holes clear of any obstructions are very important items to keep in the back of your mind. Roger
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Roger....2 minutes for elbowing
Wow,, I'm definitely going back to propane,, if I have to buy a gasser.
Neighbour not happy with his gasser either
Less wood, but 6 - 8 hour burn times.
Not enough heat etc etc,
Probably was not thought out enough,, for his application.
Sounds like you got it under control,, but that's a lot of maintenance :post:
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I have only owned a gasifier, so by spending time on this forum, I think that was an advantage to me because I didn't have any owb habits ingrained in my brain. I've burned wood in fireplaces and woodstoves for years though so it's not like I never burned wood before.
I purchased a P&M Optimizer 250 4 heating seasons ago and have nothing but praises for it. It is recommended to clean it out every 1-2 weeks by many on here and I try to do that but sometimes life gets in the way and it goes more like 3-4 weeks. When done weekly, I can do it in 20 minutes. When I let it go 3-4 weeks, I need to set aside 40-45 minutes. There are horizontal and vertical heat exchange tubes that need to be wire brushed. The horizontal tubes run the length of the unit and are accessible from both ends - you can see through the unit from end to end. They are easy to clean. The vertical tubes can be difficult when not done weekly. When it comes to cleaning ashes out of the burn box, I do it when they get much more than 3"-4" deep and that's not too often. I have filled a 30 gallon metal trash can up about 4 times all winter.
I've only had 2 small issues and they were both user issues not problems with the unit. Once, while cleaning ashes, I clogged the nozzle with coals and air couldn't get through and the other problem was not knowing I had to take the box off that covers the blower and clean that once in a while - I discovered that problem during the 3rd burning season and it took about 30 minutes to figure out. I now clean that 1-2 times a year and it takes about 15 minutes.
I sell wood (aprox 100 cords a year) and what I burn is all the junk I can't sell - cut offs, big nasty knotty pieces, partially rotten, pine, and any sweet gum I come across that I don't feel like fighting with. I have put all different size and shape wood in the unit and have never had a problem with it not burning well. The wood is dry - probably all under 20% but I've never checked it and I do keep it covered. I burn about 10 cords a year heating 3000 square feet to 74 during the day and 66 at night, firing the unit up in early Oct and shutting down late April. If I were burning good solid oak, I would guess my usage would be around 5-6 cords per year.
This unit has not had 1 maintenance/electrical problem at all and I couldn't be happier with it. At the time of purchase, it seemed to be at the top of $$ scale but I think I got what I paid for - a virtually flawless unit that's easy to run and something that I expect to get a lot of life out of.
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Roger....2 minutes for elbowing
Wow,, I'm definitely going back to propane,, if I have to buy a gasser.
Neighbour not happy with his gasser either
Sounds like you got it under control,, but that's a lot of maintenance :post:
It really isn't all that much now that I have control of what needs to be done, plus I had no choice but purchase a gasser due to state regs. Think about it; you're not willing to spend a half hour once every 2 to 3 weeks to make sure it's operating as it should? Looking at the big picture, comparing to the amount of time it's heating my home and DHW...that's just a fraction of the time spent servicing it. The rest of the time I'm inside staying nice toasty warm. It's time I'm willing to make to be sure my investment runs at it's optimum. And, as I stated, CB now makes all of their OWB's with the removable side panels, thus cutting down on the amount of time it takes to clear the holes. And, with the new Firestar II controller they install on them, one can monitor how their OWB is operating from the comfort of your home without having to go outside, with a cold one in one hand and cigar in the other. I have to ask what's your neighbor have for a gasser? What's the condition of the wood? Is it too large, too much moisture content? Is he performing any maintenance at all? The gassers require some forethought and one cannot use "green" wood in them at all. It's like owning any equipment; if you want it to run at it's optimum, one needs to put some effort into maintenance. I do that with my car (nearly 10 years old and running as good as the day I bought it), my JD tractor (2001), I spend on hour a month greasing the joints and pivot points and making sure the fluids are topped off. I treat all of the implements I have for it and chainsaws, wood splitter, lawn mower, etc... the same way and none of it is new but all of it is running as good now as it did the day I purchased it. Sorry for the rant and I don't mean to lecture, just stating some facts about the gassers. Roger
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jrider - :post:
it appears most gassers operate roughly the same way. They need some TLC at once every couple to 3 weeks and it really doesn't take that much time to maintain them. Roger
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Sounds like all and all,,, you guys are happy with them.
I think I may of over re acted,, as I just throw wood in mine, once or twice a day and auger out the ashes every week.
Nice and toasty is definately worth a little maintenace though!!
:thumbup: :thumbup:
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Flue cleaning on newer models is much less of a pain than it used to be. The 2012 Heatmaster G-Series had a system of horizontal flues through the water jacket to wick the heat off the exhaust. In those flues there were some twisted pieces of steel somewhat like auger flighting to make the exhaust spiral as it exited, causing more surface area contact. The "auger flighting" had a hole in the end, accessable via access door, to which you could attach a crank handle. This system was a lot better than brushing would be, but still took a little time. In 2013, they introduced a new design, with vertical tubes up the back. The flighting inside the flues is connected to a lever via a rod across the top. Simply shake the lever forward and back to run the flighting up and down within the flues, cleaning out any creosote, ash, etc. that may have built up.
Picture below is of the sketch Heatmaster shows for the new model.
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Has anyone out there experimented with wet wood? What happens? How wet? and etc.
Pardon all my questions, but the more questions, the more input.
I know on my E-Classic 1400 if I use any wood with more than 30% moisture content the creosote build up is terrible and the coal bed will eventually diminish to the point of being completely lost (don't ask how I know). The CB manual says anything lower than 40% MC is okay but you'll have experiment with it to see what happens because I know if I have anything over 30% in my OWB the creosote build up is noticeable. That being said, I cannot speak for other manufacturers perhaps they are bit more forgiving. Roger
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Roger....2 minutes for elbowing
Wow,, I'm definitely going back to propane,, if I have to buy a gasser.
Neighbour not happy with his gasser either
Less wood, but 6 - 8 hour burn times.
Not enough heat etc etc,
Probably was not thought out enough,, for his application.
Sounds like you got it under control,, but that's a lot of maintenance :post:
??? Burn time depends on furnace size, doesn't it?
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Flue cleaning on newer models is much less of a pain than it used to be. The 2012 Heatmaster G-Series had a system of horizontal flues through the water jacket to wick the heat off the exhaust. In those flues there were some twisted pieces of steel somewhat like auger flighting to make the exhaust spiral as it exited, causing more surface area contact. The "auger flighting" had a hole in the end, accessable via access door, to which you could attach a crank handle. This system was a lot better than brushing would be, but still took a little time. In 2013, they introduced a new design, with vertical tubes up the back. The flighting inside the flues is connected to a lever via a rod across the top. Simply shake the lever forward and back to run the flighting up and down within the flues, cleaning out any creosote, ash, etc. that may have built up.
Thats what I figured they had done, haven't actually seen one in person. Do they actually use flighting or are they actual turbolators? Do those ever need removed and cleaned?
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Roger....2 minutes for elbowing
Wow,, I'm definitely going back to propane,, if I have to buy a gasser.
Neighbour not happy with his gasser either
Less wood, but 6 - 8 hour burn times.
Not enough heat etc etc,
Probably was not thought out enough,, for his application.
Sounds like you got it under control,, but that's a lot of maintenance :post:
??? Burn time depends on furnace size, doesn't it?
Yep,,, thats why I stated,,, it was not thought out
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Roger, someday we will get together and I'll show you some pictures!
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Flue cleaning on newer models is much less of a pain than it used to be. The 2012 Heatmaster G-Series had a system of horizontal flues through the water jacket to wick the heat off the exhaust. In those flues there were some twisted pieces of steel somewhat like auger flighting to make the exhaust spiral as it exited, causing more surface area contact. The "auger flighting" had a hole in the end, accessable via access door, to which you could attach a crank handle. This system was a lot better than brushing would be, but still took a little time. In 2013, they introduced a new design, with vertical tubes up the back. The flighting inside the flues is connected to a lever via a rod across the top. Simply shake the lever forward and back to run the flighting up and down within the flues, cleaning out any creosote, ash, etc. that may have built up.
Thats what I figured they had done, haven't actually seen one in person. Do they actually use flighting or are they actual turbolators? Do those ever need removed and cleaned?
I don't know what they're actually called.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Zxazp_WA5Xc/mqdefault.jpg)
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CB 2300 on a 11k sq ft school house built in 1906 some remodeling has been done it runs full out 195 -190 below 30 degrees 10 hour burn times over 30 degrees 12 hours on a full fire box load. 24" wood split hardwood ran out 3 weeks ago had a truck load of fresh off the stump come in and yes we are running it good luck to all until someone makes a dry fire box there will always be creosote to deal with
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To be perfectly honest guys, I would think with the greater efficiency of a gasser and the resulting savings in wood, a little extra time every couple of weeks to clean or do maintenance would be worth it compared to more time required cutting wood?
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Good point all right!!
Nice trade off :thumbup:
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2010 Optimizer 250. First three years heating 3700 sqft and DHWI fought with it everyday during burning season,finally got some drier wood and jumped the learning curve, added another 1200 sq ft this year and couldn't be happier, 10 degrees and below an easy 12 hour burn, 20 and above 16 hours, no major problems, wear items.
Very happy with the boiler, 15 minutes a week cleaning.
Wood is not the best,seasoned for 1 year at most, maple oak, birches,ash. 3 year plan shaping up nicely.
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I am on my second full year with my empire pro 400 heating 8000 Sq Ft. in NH. I have been very happy. Last year being my first year there was some trial and error. My wood was not very well seasoned and I had low quality wood. I had quite a lot of problems with bridging. This year with good wood I have not had any problems. With temps in the -10 range I was getting 8 hours on a load of hardwood. With temps now in the 20 I can get 10 hours on 3/4 full load. I have run low on wood so I am currently burning maple and ash that I cut in septemeber and am not having any trouble. I clean the tubes once a month. It takes about 30-45 minutes depending on how much time I have. This boiler only holds 125 gallons but with it running correctly I have no problems. I have large radiant zones in my barn and when they call I will see the temp drop about 20 degrees before it starts to recover. I run the settings at 175 on 180 off. This small differential helps the recovery time.
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Let's be honest about them gassers to they are a bit over priced well so was my Bl for something so simple to cost half a new car is just silly in my mind. I've talked to lots of folks who ask about my boiler and when I tell them the prices of the new gassers or even the price I spent installing mine myself they are floored! Like I said some may disagree but it doesnt cost anywhere near over 10k to build these units.
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You are correct Jwood at least to an extent at least but I think there are a few things you are forgetting about, let's follow the progress through it's stages shall we.
1st stage is Research and development, it costs money to have engineers on the payroll to design the stove, sometimes this is an ongoing effort that takes many years, the companies at the top never stop in that effort.
2nd would be in house testing, you can probably imagine how many units end up in the scrap pile just because somebody forgot something or didn't think the design through, engineers are a lot like doctors and lawyers, they may be doing what they do all their life but regardless of how long they have done it they are still just practicing and again just like doctors or lawyers most have very little real world knowledge or common sense.
3rd Marketing, I can tell you first hand that setting up a booth at a county fair to show your product never mind a real trade show that charges a premium for a cramped space is very expensive, for instance, Common Ground fair in Unity, Maine last year cost P+M $1,000 dollars for a 2 day show, TCI in Hartford, Ct. Was I think a bit over $3000 and rarely do we sell enough at the show itself to pay the gate fee, most sales are done at a later date by office staff that by the way has to be paid for.
4th warranty, this is a very important part of doing business as the manufacturer would be a fool if he thought every unit off the line was going to be perfect, there are going to be glitches in the process and money needs to be set aside for those glitches, I think this is where many companies fall short and then fold which now makes it harder again for the good companies to make sales.
5th in the field testing, this is very important and can be expensive for a first run of a new product, keep in mind that where most of the units are made, there is very little hardwood and most companies used softwoods for in the field testing, there are a lot of variables with different species of woods and this is where we find a lot of the issues with a new product line.
6th Manufacturers in the lab testing, you can probably understand that setting up a lab to pre test units headed for the EPAs lab is not cheap in material costs and then add on the cost of the technician that watches the results, not cheap!
7th EPA lab testing, at this point there are only 2 EPA certified labs here in these United States, they kind of have the market cornered and can charge outrageous amounts of money for the testing, pass or fail regardless of whose fault a failure is.
8th Education for the customer, yes an owners manual is sent out with every unit, who reads them, I for one never do until I run in to an issue rather it is a wood boiler or a new chain saw, I think that has a lot to do with our testosterone levels :bash: therefor most good companies will reach out to their customers on a regular basis to check in on their progress, this takes time away from sales in the office and must still be paid for. This site has again done a lot for this industry in this aspect!
9th Dealer markup, yes believe it or not, I don't think there is a single dealer out there that promotes a product without expecting a profit back, most dealers work on a very tight margin of $1000 - $5000 dollars depending on the unit, typically if a dealer offers you a deal that is not sanctioned by the manufacturer, it is coming out of his own profit margin and perhaps he no longer sees a profit so he dumps what he has in stock and gets out. This hurts us all including the customer!
10th and finally is the manufacturers profit, a company / manufacturer would be a fool to not make enough profit on it's product to pay for all of the above and not still have enough left over to put money away for it's next product, I would not want to do business with a company that didn't take all of these factors into consideration, would you?
thank you my friend for the opportunity to explain those things to you so the next person looking for a new unit can take all those factors into consideration before they buy!
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Ya no I totally get it I just think with those prices its going to be hard to ever take over the indoor woodstove market. I know this site us full of those that have made the switch myself included, but let's face it the price of the boiler and then figure on some who don't know how to install themselves well when you start talking $15-20,000 on a new setup to heat your home, that is so unappealing to most. For people looking for a cheaper way to heat their home, well it is quickly becoming not an option.
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Agreed but that cost is what it is, perhaps it is by design by the government to take another liberty from our citizens, it is certainly not from the greed of the manufacturers or dealers and should be noted as such, there will always be folks who are willing to invest for the future by getting off the tete and being independent, that is simply the market that we will need to attract, besides you have no idea how many site visits I have done where a person balks at the cost of an OWB but has a new boat in the yard or new Harley in the garage, some folks simply will never get it, you were one of those that gets it, investment in your personal future is what it should be about, congratulations again on your investment!
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People spend their money in different places. I would rather spend my money where it will save me money.
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LIBERTY !!!!!!!!!
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You are correct slim it is about prioritys and some get and some dont.
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Ya no I totally get it I just think with those prices its going to be hard to ever take over the indoor woodstove market. I know this site us full of those that have made the switch myself included, but let's face it the price of the boiler and then figure on some who don't know how to install themselves well when you start talking $15-20,000 on a new setup to heat your home, that is so unappealing to most. For people looking for a cheaper way to heat their home, well it is quickly becoming not an option.
Bingo.........
These things are too expensive for the average Joe .
15, 20 grand?? and then you finance it on your mortgage, buy a splitter,, etc etc .
Next door neighbour has a small house with a $800 cast iron wood burner in the basement.
Hes got a little fan on the back of it and some functional ductwork going up through the floor .
Cuts 2+ cords in the back yard and is good to go.
If he won a 15,,or 20 k lottery he's putting a Harley in the garage or more likely a new pickup.truck
No one would expect, or believe it, if he went out and spent it on a boiler to save some money in 10 years.
Everyone up here burns wood, or subsidizes with wood.
I know of 3 boilers in my immediate area.
Probably a few more around.
Big farm with a write off yes, but most farmers can write there heating cost off to begin with.
Who needs to babysit a boiler along with all the other chores
The market and sales can't be that good around here??
Still glad I did it........ but not for those prices!!
Just got outta bed,, coffee kicked in ..........
kk
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Big farm with a write off yes, but most farmers can write there heating cost off to begin with.
Who needs to babysit a boiler along with all the other chores
kk
I can only write off heating costs for the shop and if I wanted to be anal the percentage that it takes to heat the farm office in our house, can only write off a hundred percent of the heating cost of the house if the office is in it and if part of the agreement for our hired help is they get room and board and were living in the house. Since my wife doesn't get her income from the farm but lives in the farmhouse it's no longer a hundred percent farm use. The IRS is anal with stupid little regs that even gives a lawyer a migraine.
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Must be fun at Tax Time eh...
My point was, the average guy is not buying one of these.
And it is just gonna get less and less an option,, as the price and regulations increase.
kk
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I have been following this thread, thank you for everyone who has porovided their input. I know this is going to be a hard question to answer, but what is everyones prediction on the prices off gassers after December 31st? Do you guys think the prices will go up, down or stay about the same? Obviously there will be more of a market for gassers after the new regs take effect because that will be the only option for an outdoor boiler.
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I think that would be anybody's guess.
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Of curse everyone who is interested in buying is going to look at initial setup cost, and doesn't see beyond it. But if the technology is there and is being used for efficient burning practices the initial cost will need to be compared to oil prices at the time. $2 a gallon oil might not warrant the OWB, however $6 a gallon(and we all know its coming) would have a fairly short payback even at 25k wouldn't it. Nobody can tell where prices are going, they NEVER go down, and the Gov. is going to keep sticking it to us for as long as they can.
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Of curse everyone who is interested in buying is going to look at initial setup cost, and doesn't see beyond it. But if the technology is there and is being used for efficient burning practices the initial cost will need to be compared to oil prices at the time. $2 a gallon oil might not warrant the OWB, however $6 a gallon(and we all know its coming) would have a fairly short payback even at 25k wouldn't it. Nobody can tell where prices are going, they NEVER go down, and the Gov. is going to keep sticking it to us for as long as they can.
And that is the problem with the majority of people in this country, they never look at the long term. With proper maintenance a boiler should last at least twice as long as the payback period, three times if its a good boiler. So if it does last three times as long people should be figuring as in reality it's really only costing you a third as much each year of the payback period.
Guess I'm don't follow the masses though, I'm always looking ahead 5, 10 or more years down the road. When I get ready to plant a new alfalfa field the prep for it may have started 3-5 years ago, soil tests and what ever nutrients/lime are needed then soil test again the next year to make sure, plant it the third year maybe, if not then another rotation of corn then beans over two years and plant it the fifth year.
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I have been following this thread, thank you for everyone who has porovided their input. I know this is going to be a hard question to answer, but what is everyones prediction on the prices off gassers after December 31st? Do you guys think the prices will go up, down or stay about the same? Obviously there will be more of a market for gassers after the new regs take effect because that will be the only option for an outdoor boiler.
I would think they'd get cheaper, American companies will be primarily building gassers from then on unless they have coal models or exporting to Canada.
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Exactly, coolidge! Take last year for example, prior to me owning a OWB, I would have been so far in debt after paying $5 a gallon for propane that it would have taken me forever to pay it back. The selling point on OWB's is that yes, it is a large start up cost. However, if you take into consideration that a good owb will last 20 plus years if it is maintained and operated properly, you can prepay your heating bill up front and save huge amounts of money. So on an average home, let's say it costs 11k for a conventional boiler installed. Even if you only get 15 years out of your furnace, the monthly cost assuming you heat for 7 months out of the year will be around $100 per month. You can then add in your savings for those 7 months for DHW (for me it's $50 a month) Now, a typical person who is considering a OWB is most likely already paying a substantial amount of money just to keep their family warm. In most cases if a individual does the math it is a no brainer. Unfortunately, the initial start up cost scares a lot of people away. With a gasser, the cost will obviously be more but the plus side is the wood savings.
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Getting back to the original subject matter of this thread,
What I like to do is see what boiler a member has in his signature, then click on his/her user name and read all his previous posts. Its real easy and paints a pretty good picture of their setup, problems, praises, and wood consumption. If we all post them here this thread is going to be 20 pages.
That being said, I've had two gassers. Soon to have a smoker :). The guy on the farm/ranch is not looking for a Hobby. As was said before, he doesn't want to babysit a boiler. He wants to clean out some timber or fence rows and get some heat in the process. Lots of people live where their neighbors are very far away. This sucks for them.
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Great post Rancuss, I agree entirely on the acreage thing, the trouble is that some folks near to their neighbors want to run the conventional's and the industry refuses to patrol itself or take any responsibility for the smokers positioning, this leads our federal overlords into creating regulations that protect us idiots from ourselves.
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The problem is that even a "smoker" can be run clean if (and I am one of them) there wood is drier than of the stump and probably use less wood. Not saying my wood is wet, but it's not what I would like for my gasser.
I know the State of Maine approves a certain amount of money for households that need it for heating, weather it be oil, propane, and even wood. And I do know people who get approved for three cord, funny thing is they don't get there wood until Oct or Nov to use that year.
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Great point Coolidge, remember government always knows best, get in line!
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I have a Wood Doctor HE 5000. I like the design and at the time the price was right for a gasser to heat my size house. I would say $10000 hooked up and running. My leaky old farm house would have crushed me the last 4 years in propane alone. My grandmother owns about 30 acres of woods 10 miles away so "free" wood aint the issue. Last year and this year would have devastated the paycheck. I bought a steel unit so IF repairs had to be done, I could weld it myself. Honeywell actuators and stats are easily available. I'm not sure mine is technically a gasser. Down draft thru a series of chambers keeps the smoke to a minimum, but there isn't really a reburning of gases. No nozzles to clean is a +. It does like drier wood than I am sometimes able to get. Lots of maple and walnut around here and if it isn't seasoned for at least two years, I get a lot more creosote build up than I like. I don't always get my lazy self out there three years in advance.
I like my owb and would do it again in a heart beat when this one dies out.
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I already posted on this topic once but after reading some comments I felt the need to chime in again. I spent roughly $13,500 on my boiler, pex, concrete pad, and install because I will be the first to admit I am not nearly as handy as many of you in here. I have oil heat which in this area has run between $3-$4 a gallon the last 4 winters. I recovered ALL of my up front costs in those first 3 years.
As far "baby sitting" the owb, I do no such thing. Just the 20-30 mins of cleaning every 1-2 weeks on average....I did let it go 5 weeks this last time though and it took me a little over an hour and a much needed shower afterward but that's 100% my fault.
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I have a sequoia paridise 3300. it is a phase 1 gassifier 6 years old. works best with drier wood .
my dealer was great, replaced the controler in a blizzard. company went out of business then the dealer went to
ohio.
heard a rattling noise, went out and the entire furnace was shaking, putting out a yellowish smoke.
slim helped me out, and i finaly figured there was a blockage in the brick tunnels under the firebox.
wood is free all I have to do is cut and split.
just wish they had not gone out of business, lost my 20 yr warranty.
jd
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Empyre Pro 200
This is my first season and shut down the boiler for the first time last week for 6 months. I used just shy of two cords a month heating my 140 year old two story farm house that is well insulated including foam sprayed basement walls. I also have a 40X80 shop that I heat when it isn't too cold with a 100k BTU dragons breath air handler. The 200pro capabilities are pretty much at their max with my setup.
I am really happy with the unit and only had a few problems I was able to work out pretty quick. The combustion fan in the back of the unit has sealed bearings that only lasted about 4 months. The warranty process was incredibly easy and a new fan was delivered in five days. I would highly suggest oiling the bearings with a drop of oil when cleaning the unit once a week. I usually remove the fan when cleaning so ash does not intrude the motor housing. I think this is where bearing failure begins. My electronics warranty has run out so now I am on my own. I have a total of three fans now (one new one on machine, one backup and one I am taking apart this summer to design a better bearing setup.) Pretty much everything else I might need can be bought and shipped out online.
Creosote build up seems to be the problem for alot of owners. I do not have any to speak of but I think keeping the load times shorter is the key. All gassers like seasoned wood but with a keen eye or a 30 dollar moisture meter you can mix up the wood. I have only had a few bridge outs but eventually they cave in and it starts making good heat again. I also put in a cap full of creosote killer powder a few times a week.
I started my fire Sept 12 of last year. It was a bit early but I wanted to be able to work out some bugs if need be. The fire has never gone out. Even when the fan quit and the unit idled for 12 hours reducing a full box of wood to a not even a smoulder all had to do was get the fan going again and the fire roared to life.
I decided to build a fire today as we are dropping down to -9 tonight but well into the positives early this week. It took about 2 hours to go from stone cold to 180'F.
The manual and video shows the stove being loaded with optimum shaped wood. 6-8" in diameter for the 200pro and 3'long there abouts. I do not have access to this type of wood and I burn just about everything that doesnt have nails in it. (ok, maybe the odd pallet too). I have not had a problem at all.
The only thing I would change is the firebox size. It is ridiculously small but I guess its part of the design. If I had bought th 400 pro it would have too long of burn times and create creosote.
The smoke door has a hinge that is in a sheety spot making the stove difficult to fill to the top but on the other hand the ash cleanout is stupid easy and very efficient. I create about 1 bucket of ash a week and have never had to clean out the firebox as the ash is directed out the bottom holes in the brick.
All and all if this bitch doesn't spring a leak in the next 4 years I am one happy guy. I spend about 4000 in oil/propane a year and purchased this unit at a deep discount. My total install including concrete pad and walkway was under 10k.
Maintenance,
Pretty easy all and all and takes less than 15 min. I keep all the tools including a cheap drill in the back of the machine. Cleaning out the tubes with the fly ash brush supplied and a power drill is a snap. I also lightly scrub around the gaskets, oil the motor and blow out the fan with compressed air. I wouldn't even call it maintenance to be honest. I was doing it once a week, then once every two weeks and left it for three once. I think the buildup after three weeks was a detriment to the efficiency so now I just do it every Sunday morning as a rule.
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Maintenance,
Pretty easy all and all and takes less than 15 min. I keep all the tools including a cheap drill in the back of the machine. Cleaning out the tubes with the fly ash brush supplied and a power drill is a snap. I also lightly scrub around the gaskets, oil the motor and blow out the fan with compressed air. I wouldn't even call it maintenance to be honest. I was doing it once a week, then once every two weeks and left it for three once. I think the buildup after three weeks was a detriment to the efficiency so now I just do it every Sunday morning as a rule.
Some guys L do anything to miss church(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/GreenGuy_1.gif)(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/GreenGuy_1.gif)
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Empyre Pro 200
This is my first season and shut down the boiler for the first time last week for 6 months. I used just shy of two cords a month heating my 140 year old two story farm house that is well insulated including foam sprayed basement walls. I also have a 40X80 shop that I heat when it isn't too cold with a 100k BTU dragons breath air handler. The 200pro capabilities are pretty much at their max with my setup.
I am really happy with the unit and only had a few problems I was able to work out pretty quick. The combustion fan in the back of the unit has sealed bearings that only lasted about 4 months. The warranty process was incredibly easy and a new fan was delivered in five days. I would highly suggest oiling the bearings with a drop of oil when cleaning the unit once a week. I usually remove the fan when cleaning so ash does not intrude the motor housing. I think this is where bearing failure begins. My electronics warranty has run out so now I am on my own. I have a total of three fans now (one new one on machine, one backup and one I am taking apart this summer to design a better bearing setup.) Pretty much everything else I might need can be bought and shipped out online.
Creosote build up seems to be the problem for alot of owners. I do not have any to speak of but I think keeping the load times shorter is the key. All gassers like seasoned wood but with a keen eye or a 30 dollar moisture meter you can mix up the wood. I have only had a few bridge outs but eventually they cave in and it starts making good heat again. I also put in a cap full of creosote killer powder a few times a week.
I started my fire Sept 12 of last year. It was a bit early but I wanted to be able to work out some bugs if need be. The fire has never gone out. Even when the fan quit and the unit idled for 12 hours reducing a full box of wood to a not even a smoulder all had to do was get the fan going again and the fire roared to life.
I decided to build a fire today as we are dropping down to -9 tonight but well into the positives early this week. It took about 2 hours to go from stone cold to 180'F.
The manual and video shows the stove being loaded with optimum shaped wood. 6-8" in diameter for the 200pro and 3'long there abouts. I do not have access to this type of wood and I burn just about everything that doesnt have nails in it. (ok, maybe the odd pallet too). I have not had a problem at all.
The only thing I would change is the firebox size. It is ridiculously small but I guess its part of the design. If I had bought th 400 pro it would have too long of burn times and create creosote.
The smoke door has a hinge that is in a sheety spot making the stove difficult to fill to the top but on the other hand the ash cleanout is stupid easy and very efficient. I create about 1 bucket of ash a week and have never had to clean out the firebox as the ash is directed out the bottom holes in the brick.
All and all if this bitch doesn't spring a leak in the next 4 years I am one happy guy. I spend about 4000 in oil/propane a year and purchased this unit at a deep discount. My total install including concrete pad and walkway was under 10k.
Maintenance,
Pretty easy all and all and takes less than 15 min. I keep all the tools including a cheap drill in the back of the machine. Cleaning out the tubes with the fly ash brush supplied and a power drill is a snap. I also lightly scrub around the gaskets, oil the motor and blow out the fan with compressed air. I wouldn't even call it maintenance to be honest. I was doing it once a week, then once every two weeks and left it for three once. I think the buildup after three weeks was a detriment to the efficiency so now I just do it every Sunday morning as a rule.
So. How effective is that creosote powder? Tell me about it.
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Well I think the majority of us that have gassers have been happy with them, there is a bit of a learning curve with them all but with proper support they all seem to work pretty well.
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So Slimjim, looks like you're burning a G200 how's it been treating you?
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Not any more, HondaRacer now owns it, it went VERY WELL from February through this summers shows, I'm back to my old WoodDoctor for now until I get my new unit to try out, ( it's a secret ) and then I'll be putting in a G 400 for my permanent unit I think!
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I think I have a guess or two what your secret might be but I’ll not say it to leave everyone else in suspense. ;)
Installed my G400 a week ago, had it up and running late Friday night/early Saturday morning. Followed lighting directions from the manual and from what I’ve read on this site, relatively straight forward once a coal bed is established. Don’t let it burn down too far, won’t go out but you’ll get some smoke until the fresh wood gets going well, far as I can tell up to 6 to 8 inches of a coal bed is just fine in the G series. Haven’t seen the slot in the bottom plug up with anything as of yet.
I’m heating 2700 square feet of 1800’s farm house and 45x45 shop with no insulation under the floor or perimeter, have used a quarter cord in a week.
I almost think somebody that has never used a OWB of any kind as long as they’d follow directions would have no problems getting the hang of a G series, I was guilty of letting it burn down too far to stay ahead of the coals and ash which was imperative in my old one, not required with a G, don’t even need to really stir it up like my old one, just move the partially burnt pieces around to make sure they aren’t bridging underneath anywhere and add more wood.
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mlappin,
How much less wood would you estimate it's burning or is it just too early to tell?
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My guess is half of what old smokey burnt.
Usually this time of year I wouldn’t have bothered starting the wood boiler yet and just use the waste oil to batch burn and heat 700 gallons of water up as it took too much wood even in the shoulder season. Always ran the oil boiler along wit the wood in the winter to cut down on wood usage, not seeing that being a problem. The G400 heats 700 gallons of water up in practically no time, longest I’ve seen it run has been 20 minutes where the old one might run for hours at a time reheating all that wood.
I get done wit harvest I’m going to rerun my test I did on ole smokey a few weeks ago. I took three hundred pounds of wood, started a fire and let it go, 6 hours later the water temp was starting to drop and the water was only up to 160. I haven’t measured it out for the G400 yet but my guess would be it shut off at 180 before burning half that much, but it also heats the water faster than the fifty FPHE can heat the 450 gallons of water in the waste oil boiler tank, so it cycled on and off several times before the shop water caught up.
We had a pretty cool day awhile back with 30-40 mph winds, I turned the heat all the way up in the house and opened a window or two downwind, turned all the air handlers on in the shop, two fifty thousand and one hundred thousand BTU and left the service door open, the 400 kept up no problem and was cycling on and off. I’m also hoping for some real frigid weather this winter to see what it does, I’ll kick the snow melt on next time as well and see what happens.
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Hi. I purchased a HeatMaster G-200 in August. My small boiler was not big enough for the added garage. I hooked it up in a few days. We burned pine and hemlock until November it was not at 20%. More like 30- 45%. All I used it for was the DHW. The stove function was flawless. Once I packed the fire box to the ceiling with the soft wood it heated up no problem, but condensates out the front door seal. It was enough wood for three days only doing the DHW. So after that I was only filling enough for one day. Eliminating the condensation problem. Now I switched over to red maple,birch, some ash. This wood is only at 40% moisture. I cut the wood in summer time not realizing I was going to purchase a new furnace. Yes mLappin in the exchanger tubes there is turbulator fins that are dual function, they clean the tubes and direct the hot gasses to the tube. Just pull the handle they move up n down scrubbing the tubes all at once. And you r done Cleaning the tubes my girlfriend can do it quicker than I typed this out. It has a smoke bypass that actually works, pulling the smoke away from you, when I open the Clean out door it is gassifiing on the wood I'm using that is not the 20%. Then you rake out the ash in the reaction chamber once every three weeks. That takes one minute to do. Once a year it is recommended to clean above the heat tubes which is a easy removable panel with slide tabs. Maybe 20 minutes maximum.
The only problem I had was I lost a bearing in the blower , on the hot side. The shaft stuck to the bearing spinning it in the holder. This was not the fault of HeatMaster sense they do not assemble the motors. I talked with Ryan at steel tec and he was ok with me taking the blower from a new unit. And they sent a new one to slimjim In a few days. This unit might be pricy but when you buy quality and have service like that it is worth every penny. There was no charge for the motor.
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The only complaint I have so far with my G200 is that the fan bearing sounds like its going to give up at somepoint sooner than later. It makes quite the rattling sound when the fan starts up at first. Goes away after it is running for a minute.
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Is it a bearing sound or rubbing?
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At first I thought it was possibly the fan being out of balance because of fly ash on the fan blades. I haven't convinced myself yet that is not the problem. It has been going off and on since I got it dropped off. It could possibly be rubbing, but I don't know what the fan blade could be rubbing on? I think what I will do at the next cleaning is pull of the heat exchanger access panel and fan and flip the bypass lever forward to kick the fan on and see what I can determine.
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At first I thought it was possibly the fan being out of balance because of fly ash on the fan blades. I haven't convinced myself yet that is not the problem. It has been going off and on since I got it dropped off. It could possibly be rubbing, but I don't know what the fan blade could be rubbing on? I think what I will do at the next cleaning is pull of the heat exchanger access panel and fan and flip the bypass lever forward to kick the fan on and see what I can determine.
The design of the fan blades are pretty much what dust collectors use and are for “debris laden air”. However it might be possible that maybe in some warmer temps a little creosote formed on them than ran down the blade without dripping off and solidified. This is just a guess, mine was pretty darn clean when I pulled it last week given the environment it works in.
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Im thinking its dirty Honda as I never did clean that for the entire season from February last year!
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I have a spare here if you need it.
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Thank you Richard, I will pull it when I get a chance so that I can try to diagnose it.
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Well I tore into it today to figure it out. It appears that the output side bearing is gone. I removed the four bolts that hold the fan bracket to the back of the inspection panel and removed the fan. The blades were a little bit caked up with fly ash but nothing bad or unexpected. I was able to rock the fan blade from side to side. It wasn't excessive enough for the fan blade to come in contact with the metal bracket housing that is attached the the motor but it was very noticeable. So I removed the fan blade and the housing so that I could get down to just the motor itself. I went back outside to the furnace, plugged it in and through the bypass lever. The fan spun up and sounds like it is full of marbles. The noise doesn't change very much with the angle of the motor, horizontal or vertical, but goes away when it is almost wound all the way down when unplugged. The side to side movement of the shaft is less noticable when the fan blade isnt attached to show the side to side play that you get. I would say that fan motor is in need of replacement. Next question, I know electronics have a one year warranty on them, does that mean the new fan will have another 1 year warranty on it or is it from the purchase date of the stove? I am skeptical about the quality of the bearings Fasco is using.
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Thats a good question, I would think it would be one year from purchase date so this one is a freebee but I would doubt that if it goes again then the next one would need to be paid for and then it would again have the one year warranty. would you like for me to send one out to you in the morning or will you be in the area soon to pick it up?
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If you could send it my way that would be awesome! I just did a search for the motor and I believe this is it http://www.amazon.com/Fasco-D219-3-3-Inch-Enclosed-Reversible/dp/B007VJRP4M/ref=cm_rdp_product_img/178-0428588-2267333
Interesting enough a review says that he had to replace one on his G200 and that this one doesn't have any holes in it possibly allowing some ash in causing failure. That motor certainly doesn't appear to have any openings but I also don't think that much if any ash gets anywhere near the motor.
As far as these silly warranties go I never understand this non sense about having a failure of a product within the warranty period, having the product replaced because of failure of the product but not receiving the 'warranty' for the replacement product. What sense does that make??
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I don't understand it myself either but I know thats the way it is with circs and blower motors that I have replaced in the past, it's the motor manufacturers warranty.
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Honda racer. Thanks for that link.😀😀 Looks exactly like mine. But it says ball bearing. 👍👍👍👍Mine is a bronzed bushing. I think I will buy it and I will never have another problem.