Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Empyre => Topic started by: ecc_33 on April 24, 2014, 05:47:13 PM
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Well....Today I decided to clean the stove for the summer. After taking the blower motor off and the air flap I found what appeared to be the same holes as others. Sucks I spent over 12 grand on a system to find this out after a few months of use :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: Pro fab def has some serious problems with this. As you seen in the other guys post. I heat 1507 sqft with a full walk out basement 9 ft ceilings. Almost always loaded twice a day. Specially after seeing the 400 do the same thing. Prob a 16 times or so I went more than 14 hours on a burn time. Rant over. Time to turn it up a bit and drink :o
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This is also on the side of the air box. The back of the box were the fan mounts looked like new. So my questons is. If my chinsy azz repair kit looks like the guy with the 400 issue. What do you screw or self tap the metal plate to if the metal under the "repair kit" is junk? Eventually sooner than later that WHOLE piece of metal is going to be trashed and most likely cause a big fire or just fall off from rotting out. Since I have a service truck with all the fixins maybe I should just cut that piece out with a torch and weld in a heavier piece of plate steel?
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Wow I think we should all give pro fab a call on your behalf and others. They need to address this issue and fast!
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I would start by having a good healthy conversation with corporate, threats of lawsuits and lawyers does no good as you can see from the guy in PA, I wish we could have swung by to see him on our way back but with the posts that he made as well as the PM's that I received I thought better of getting involved, this is as you know a great place to come for ideas and answers but constructive conversations will get you much further than lawyers, let's all put our heads together and see if we can come up with a solution to their problem, I think having a beer is a great start then a PM to Scott7m might help, he has some difficult stuff going on right now so please be patient and I'm sure he will be happy to help. What am I looking at in the picture? Is that the air box that we see?
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Could you take a picture further back so we can see where the holes are in relation to the rest of the boiler?
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Great start!
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Ive already been in contact with him and it will be taken care of...
As far as a heavier piece of steel, not sure it would help much really. The stainless kits they send out have seemed to work well. placing some board insulation around the fan box could help alleviate that as well.
I just dont see the heavier steel amounting to anything other than a slight delay, making the patch corrosion resistant will help tho
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What is it that we are looking at Scott, is there a possible better fix?
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What is it that we are looking at Scott, is there a possible better fix?
Slim thats where the fan attaches to the air duct in the back of stove. As boiler shuts down the trapped gases go to the cold spot which is near the fan. Im not sure what can easily be done to correct it, the ideas I spoke to you about the draft would clean those gases out for sure. But in its current design im not sure. He said rest of the boiler was clean so, we shall see. I think when folks take these pics they need to stand back so ppl can actually see where the issue is instead of just a pic of a hole, maybe from folks seeing the whole picture someone may come up with a better idea
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That's exactly what I was saying Scott the hole don't show much except holes :thumbup:
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Thanks guys . I did call Scott ASAP and he was very helpful as always. It was gettin late and I was in a hurry. When the muddy yard dries out some I'll get more pics. The boiler in itself was very clean. Hardly any creosote build up. Tubes were nice and dry light flakey ash inside. The inside of the air box was horrible though. Lits of very hard creosote
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I went up and checked my pro 400 today just to make sure I didn't miss anything and mine is fine so far. I have shut it down for the season and when I removed the fan to clean it the metal in the air box all looked good and solid. I have a large load on mine so I think that is what is helping me. I usually don't get long burn times when real cold only about 8 hours and mine cycles often.
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I went up and checked my pro 400 today just to make sure I didn't miss anything and mine is fine so far. I have shut it down for the season and when I removed the fan to clean it the metal in the air box all looked good and solid. I have a large load on mine so I think that is what is helping me. I usually don't get long burn times when real cold only about 8 hours and mine cycles often.
This maybe most of the problem? When mine does cycle it is often just not on for very long. Maybe 5-8 minutes at a time. Enough to get stuff hot than its out! I have noticed that. Guys this isn't a dig at Scott or pro fab at ANY GIVIN TIME. I just would like to inform people of stuff I have encountered with this boiler. Scott has prob been more than willing than he really should over the phone and through text which I am very greatful about. I am honestly posting all this stuff to hopefully come up with solution or try to figure out a fix for this. I figure im most likely stuck with my investment.
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That's the right attitude ecc, Scott is that portion of the air intake welded to the boiler or is it the bracket that holds the fan, Jwood is trying a couple of chemical treatments for steel, we were talking yesterday about his test, I wonder if it might have a use here, Jwood, could you after doing your experiment try the same stuff using heat and creosote to see what it will take? It seems like such a shame that we can put a space ship on mars but can't ( as an industry ) stop creosote from attacking steel, there has to be a better way!
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Sure I can try, how hot does that part of the stove get?
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Scott would certainly be better to answer that question, I am sure that there has to be something on the market that is non flammable but also a protectant that could be used to treat the steel, this is one place that competitors should be working together to stop the industries issues of corrosion.
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That's the right attitude ecc, Scott is that portion of the air intake welded to the boiler or is it the bracket that holds the fan, Jwood is trying a couple of chemical treatments for steel, we were talking yesterday about his test, I wonder if it might have a use here, Jwood, could you after doing your experiment try the same stuff using heat and creosote to see what it will take? It seems like such a shame that we can put a space ship on mars but can't ( as an industry ) stop creosote from attacking steel, there has to be a better way!
Yes, It is all welded directly to the back left corner of the fire box. I will get more pics I promise. I just grass seeded my yard last weekend and it just got done raining a bunch. I hate to walk down and back through it. Maybe by tomorrow it will dry out some and I'll get to it.
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Sure I can try, how hot does that part of the stove get?
I honestly don't know. I never put a heat gun on it while it was running. I am suprised if it does get hot that it didn't catch fire. The insulation was right up against the hole. Its not charred at all but I had to pull it out.
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Any idea how hot it gets there and is there any chance of fire getting back to it if an epoxy or protectant were applied to the new box.
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For that area check out these products on this website, if you could post better pictures of what the whole are looks like would help.
http://www.aremco.com/high-temp-refractory-coatings/ (http://www.aremco.com/high-temp-refractory-coatings/)
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I believe an easy way for Pro fab to address this issue starting on new stoves would be to have those pieces ceramic coated just like a ceramic coated header on a car.
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Nice, I would think the 4-500 degree stuff used for stack scrubbers on paper mills would be perfect.
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I agree and let's say they started putting it on new boilers, if they contracted someone to ceramic coat those pieces it might cost them a little more but it has to be cheaper than sending out a fix it kit down the line.
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The cost of fix kits are the least of the manufacturers concerns, it is the bad press that they cause that gets expensive, is that stuff available in small quantities that we might be able to try some on a small scale. Perhaps Scott could speak with the manufacturer to see if they would have any objection? Maybe we could start a forum fund to pay for the experiment, voluntary of course with no government subsidies, I would be in, any others, say 20 bucks each share.
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That area doesnt get hot per say. All of the cold air is being blown in right at that very spot where we see the problems.
Maybe some type of thin refractory or a coating would stop the issue. But its something to think about and try to figure out. I hate he had this issue but seems like if we can figure out a fix for it he'll be in great shape.
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The cost of fix kits are the least of the manufacturers concerns, it is the bad press that they cause that gets expensive, is that stuff available in small quantities that we might be able to try some on a small scale. Perhaps Scott could speak with the manufacturer to see if they would have any objection? Maybe we could start a forum fund to pay for the experiment, voluntary of course with no government subsidies, I would be in, any others, say 20 bucks each share.
If we could get stuff like that in small quanities id def be in on it. Im sure Eric would like to give it a try as well
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Scott will the new mount need to be welded on or is there enough left to screw it on? do you think using something like this will affect his warranty?
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I emailed Aremco about the quantity, Im sure I won't hear anything until Monday.
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Thanks Jwood, please let us know when you hear from them.
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I sure will if I don't receive an email I will call Monday!
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Here are some pictures of my Pro 400. Hope this helps.
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That area doesnt get hot per say. All of the cold air is being blown in right at that very spot where we see the problems.
Maybe some type of thin refractory or a coating would stop the issue. But its something to think about and try to figure out. I hate he had this issue but seems like if we can figure out a fix for it he'll be in great shape.
Could a piece of 409 stainless be used there instead?
If engineered properly the expansion differences between the stainless and standard metal could be negated.
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Thanks belknap so yours is fixed already I see, how thick is the piece of metal they sent you compared to the old burnt out piece?
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Oh scratch that last post yours never burnt out.
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Scott will the new mount need to be welded on or is there enough left to screw it on? do you think using something like this will affect his warranty?
def would not affect his warranty.... There is plenty of good metal left on his to screw the plate on
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Thanks belknap so yours is fixed already I see, how thick is the piece of metal they sent you compared to the old burnt out piece?
Huh?? Nothing has been done to his. Thats all original, hes not had this issue
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That area doesnt get hot per say. All of the cold air is being blown in right at that very spot where we see the problems.
Maybe some type of thin refractory or a coating would stop the issue. But its something to think about and try to figure out. I hate he had this issue but seems like if we can figure out a fix for it he'll be in great shape.
Could a piece of 409 stainless be used there instead?
If engineered properly the expansion differences between the stainless and standard metal could be negated.
The repair kits are 304 I think....
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Yes I know Scott I corrected myself before you posted.
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I do have a question though as far as screwing that piece of stainless they give in the fix it kit, I can see how you would get the screws in on the fan side but how do you get the ones that go on the side? Maybe its not as tight of a squeeze as the picture suggests?
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I think you would have to take the exterior sheathing off. I can't see getting anything in there on the side to install the self tapping screws.
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Gotcha! It sure looked like a nightmare getting a drill in there.
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Yes I know Scott I corrected myself before you posted.
Didn't see that til after I posted, I was scrolling through
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This area altho it's not supposed to get hot can catch fire if creosote nearly plugs it up, it's important to inspect this area a few times a winter
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No problem Scott, are you talking about pulling the fan off and checking inside there?
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No problem Scott, are you talking about pulling the fan off and checking inside there?
Yep, just takes a couple mins once you do it a time or 2
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Hate that folks are having this issue but am excited to see folks coming together to try to fix this issue
my thoughts on it are it is likely possible to have a coating stop corrosion, but that doesn't cure how the trapped gases stay in there which isnt good and in time will cause creosote to form in there, but perhaps we can make it manageable
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I wish we all had more knowledge of that particular boiler but I agree Scott we should be able to come together and hopefully figure something out :thumbup:
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It is not just that boiler and it is high time that the industry works together to solve the problem, let's look at this one to start and then adapt it to any stove facing the issue. Scott can we get the attention of corporate to the thread and get some feedback as to what their solution might be? pictures of the new mount and where it goes might help, I think for now that Jwood is on the right track with the coatings, as far as creosote building up there, that is simple, clean it with your normal cleaning cycle, a product that I like to use for cleaning smoke and creosote that does not damage paint is Spray 9 fireplace glass cleaner, spray it on and wipe it off and it is about $9 per bottle at your local hardware store or stove shop.
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Here is the new plate and parts they send, I stole it from Spyders Post. It makes a lot more sense looking at how it goes when you see belknaps pictures.
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OK so this screws onto the existing air inlet tube and then the blower mounts to it? Scott go out in the barn and see the soft rubber plug used as a moisture drain on the bottom of the air filter on your diesel tractor, could this not be used as a drain for the airbox?
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Not sure
im sure someone from pro fab is reading along as nearly all manufacturers do..
I can see if they have any input but I think youll hear mount the kit and do a routine cleaning
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What do you think about the drain idea?
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It seems as the air box has a really small drain hole in it from the factory. But its so small it gets plugged up with creososte really fast. I thought about taking a step bit and opening it up some. I really didn't think the air box was getting that much creosote in it or I would have cleaned it out way more often. The coating idea is a good one! Would you coat the inside or the outside of the box? The inside would be super hard to do and with all the gunk in it now wouldn't really work imho. I wish my yard wasn't all muddy so I could get my service truck close enough to blow air in the box to clean it better.
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Could you spray the tube with the spray 9 product that i mentioned to clean it?
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It would be hard but I've got a pretty good product here that I'm testing.
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The hole where the blower mounts is pretty big maybe 4" x 4". I was able to get in there and clean it out. My vertical tube was pretty well plugged. The horizontal tubes weren't too bad. I will have to clean it a couple of times a season. I sprayed mine good with the diesel hydraulic fluid mix and I looked pretty good. Not too dirty.
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Inside the box of course, yes it would have to be clean for the coatings to do there thing
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What are you guys cleaning your air tubes with?
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I use the cleaning tool for a drill.
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For the ones that are already dirty maybe that Fluid Film would even possibly work?
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Try the Spray nine product to clean it first.
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I gotta look stuff up is that a cleaner or lube slim?
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Smoke and Creosote cleaner that does not harm the paint.
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Thanks Slim!
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The cost of fix kits are the least of the manufacturers concerns, it is the bad press that they cause that gets expensive, is that stuff available in small quantities that we might be able to try some on a small scale. Perhaps Scott could speak with the manufacturer to see if they would have any objection? Maybe we could start a forum fund to pay for the experiment, voluntary of course with no government subsidies, I would be in, any others, say 20 bucks each share.
If we could get stuff like that in small quanities id def be in on it. Im sure Eric would like to give it a try as well
Ok so here is what I got from AREMCO after I explained that it was a highly corrosive area on an OWB these were two of the products recommend prices and such.
You can order direct thru our New York facility because we do not have any distributors in the US.
The minimum order quantity for these items is one pint. Please note that they are classified as Hazardous Materials and must ship in a special container that costs $20.00 each.
Following is a quotation:
Item A, Corr-Paint CP4010-S1, 1 Pint @ $92.00/pint, 1 Quart @ $150.00/quart Item B, Corr-Paint CP4000-S1, 1 Pint @ $92.00/pint, 1 Quart @ $150.00/quart Item C, Hazardous Packaging Fee, $20.00/container
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I use the cleaning tool for a drill.
I ment the tubes inside the air box chamber for the draft fan. IIRC I seen 3 tubes. I think that cleaner would work well in the air box. I need to get some.
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for the vertical tube I used the brush. for the horizontal ones I removed the bricks and cleaned them out with a vacuum.
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I would start by having a good healthy conversation with corporate, threats of lawsuits and lawyers does no good as you can see from the guy in PA, I wish we could have swung by to see him on our way back but with the posts that he made as well as the PM's that I received I thought better of getting involved, this is as you know a great place to come for ideas and answers but constructive conversations will get you much further than lawyers, let's all put our heads together and see if we can come up with a solution to their problem, I think having a beer is a great start then a PM to Scott7m might help, he has some difficult stuff going on right now so please be patient and I'm sure he will be happy to help. What am I looking at in the picture? Is that the air box that we see?
Welcome to the club ecc_33. Hope you get a quick resolution.
Slimjim just happen to catch this post. I find it interesting. As I recall. I called you and said "thanks for offering to come. But there is no need for it"
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Yes I did spyder, please try to put yourself in my position, i represent a totally different company, a direct competitor, involving myself and our corporate office in any lawsuits would simply not be a smart move would it! I am hoping that you follow what is being said on this thread and can get your issue resolved, I think we are onto something with the coatings.
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without starting with a brand new boiler or cutting that metal off the fire box and welding a new blower box on i honestly feel you will never get all that stuff clean enough to get a epoxy or a painted on substaints to stick to the walls. The holes are just to small on my boiler to get it that clean imho.
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without starting with a brand new boiler or cutting that metal off the fire box and welding a new blower box on i honestly feel you will never get all that stuff clean enough to get a epoxy or a painted on substaints to stick to the walls. The holes are just to small on my boiler to get it that clean imho.
Ive seen them have damage that far up, its always back next to the cool fan
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can a new box be welded on Scott, will they supply it? I tried calling you a few minutes ago, now is a good time!
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can a new box be welded on Scott, will they supply it? I tried calling you a few minutes ago, now is a good time!
perhaps, ill have to see what corporate says
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I took all the fire brick out of the stove monday and cleaned it all out. Air passages looked good and had hardly anything in them!