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[dukethebeagle]

i've been thinkin on starting this thread for a while.
i live in canada  and don't hear this epa crap much.
but for what its worth what do you all think could have been done to make conventional owb more appealing
to the greenies.any designs or burning methods etc to reduce smoke and emissions.
everyone knows what you don't see won't bother others.
just wanted to start a discussion on ways that could have helped the old designs .?

[GCTerpfan]

Burning only seasoned wood and not trash or any of the other things that have been thrown in conventional boilers would have been a start but, ultimately I think it would have happened at some point anyway.

[mlappin]

Only dry seasoned wood, load at least twice daily would have helped. If all were forced draft that might have helped some as well.

I know a place that does custom butchering and they actually burn their offal in theirs, so you can imagine that stench.

[fireboss]

Better training or education when I first got my boiler firerd up  I keept it full at all times  and I mean full ! I was there 10 times a day. I live in a development last house in a cultifsack  and woods on three sides but that boiler smoked like a locomotive ran thru 3 times a day lol now it smokes for less than 5 min! then no smoke, just heat like a Gasser comeing out the stack!  .when its ideling just the whisper come out

[dukethebeagle]

i feel at times design was made to be convenient and less on keeping smoke down.
one thing is firebox size
a huge firebox is nice for loading
but everyone know that a less condensed fire means less heat
and i believe less heat means more smoke .
its like a camp fire with 1 or 2 pieces of wood.usually u got smoke
put 10 blocks on that same pile and u got heat and usually less smoke

[coolidge]

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, manufacturers can show you, tell you, prove to you that most of theses conventionals CAN burn clean. Have seen it first hand. Build em big so you can fill emup for a two day burn, you get smoke.  Two neighbors down the road from me have conventional, both burn off the stump wood, both burn 2 times more than me(14 to 20) full cord a year, both fill the neighborhood with smoke.   Can't teach an old dog new tricks!

[Pointblank]

You can't teach an old dog new tricks, manufacturers can show you, tell you, prove to you that most of theses conventionals CAN burn clean. Have seen it first hand. Build em big so you can fill emup for a two day burn, you get smoke.  Two neighbors down the road from me have conventional, both burn off the stump wood, both burn 2 times more than me(14 to 20) full cord a year, both fill the neighborhood with smoke.   Can't teach an old dog new tricks!

This is how I see it also.
Most of these conventionals can burn clean if you take the initiative to do it.  Unfortunately, many never do

[Bud Man]

I agree with all of the above. Education,properly dried wood,firebox size and design all have an effect on the burn you get and the efficiency of any stove. But what hasn't been mentioned and is arguably the most important thing that could have been done is VOTING!!! If we could get more of the good, hard working, honest people of this country to get out and vote we wouldn't be putting up with the bunch of liberals hell-bent to ruin this country and the good people living in it. I could go on and on but you get my point.

[dukethebeagle]

amen

[juddspaintballs]

The problem was never with the boilers, but with the EPA.  Why do they have so much power and are not controlled by the people AT ALL?  They create and enforce laws without going through the judicial process AT ALL.  Thanks to the EPA, when you buy any diesel now, including a FARM TRACTOR, you now have to buy COW URINE to burn in the motor along with ULS diesel fuel.  Let's not forget, the EPA themselves just dumped MILLIONS of gallons of chemical into a river and destroyed an entire environment with no repercussions, but it's my conventional boiler's fault for ruining the earth. 

[mlappin]

 

It would have happened regardless once it became apparent that its a revenue generator.

I’m sure the labs that do the testing are required to be inspected and licensed every year and I’m pretty sure that license isn’t free.

Just look what the EPA has done to diesel engines, took what used to be one of the most reliable power plants around and turned it into a steaming pile of sensor laden crap that breaks down quite often. When I was doing physical therapy twice a week it wasn’t unusual in just the ten mile drive on the new bypass to see at least one semi sitting on the side of the road or a off ramp wit the hood up, all newer trucks as well while our 94 International with a Cat hasn’t missed a beat yet, or any of our other Internationals with the 466’s in em, they just run and run and run.

[Strawbale Builder]

The NSPS was a long and drawn out process, but like many EPA Regs there was a 90 day public comment period. I heard that EPA received only about 1800 comments. Over 40 million people live in the great lakes area alone, I realize many are city folk but REALLY 1800 comments? I thought there would be at least 100x's that. I commented twice, once as a business and once as an individual. Some past regs have gotten over 200,000 comments, not enough public comments EPA will not listen.

[slimjim]

Here's one that I feel compelled to comment on, as you folks know I live in Maine, we were one of the first in the nation to regulate non EPA certified boilers, we are the most forested state in the continental US and to this day, one of the hardest states to legally burn wood in an OWB.
 I personally was at every public hearing ( my wife and I both spoke at several of them in favor of Wood Heat ) , I was at every workshop that the DEP hosted along with a handful of other dealers and manufacturers. I felt that there was no need for the DEP to regulate OWBs and that any problem units could be resolved if we the dealers and manufacturers Policed ourselves by refusing to sell to problem areas and replacing or repairing problems with those units as well as educating the customer on proper burn practices. My comments were not met kindly by those dealers who had a high number of problem units here, instead of trying to solve the issues amongst ourselves they bashed all other brands / dealers, one of the biggest problem dealers happens to be the same dealer that sold Roxanne her unit. I still feel today first the numbers of problem units was inflated by the DEP in order to justify an emergency bill that was rammed through, there at the time were 124 units within the entire state that had a complaint, there were perhaps 25 that truly were an issue, the remainder were the result of DEP publicizing their intent to regulate and remove problem units. Of those 25, to this day not one of them has been replaced or removed. DEPs excuse for not fixing those 25 or so is that there never has been funding for replacement, they even had a special hearing to create a fund where fine monies payed by offenders of environmental laws could donate their fine to the fund, to this date not one nickel has been put into that account!
 Now, knowing a bit of our history here, you might ask why! Let me tell you my opinion, first and foremost, we in the industry did not stand together, second, we allowed the state to lie and inflate the numbers without trying to work out the problems ourselves and dispute the lies! Third, Greed, some of the dealers here were so inflicted by greed that they would sell to anyone who had the funds or desire to purchase an OWB, many times I have had a potential customer come to me at a show and tell me that they wanted our product in order to burn trash, animal carcasses, old tires, roofing material and construction debris, when I refused to sell to them, they would simply go on to the next dealer who would sell for greed! We as an industry allowed it to happen to ourselves!
 The money behind the regulations, more than likely, most of you think that the opposition to OWBs came from the oil industry, let me say this, not once have I heard in the meetings or publicly any opposition from the oil industry, not so with the wood pellet industry, not only have they opposed OWBs here but they have enough political clout that they take our hard earned tax dollars as well as a tax on ratepayers here to promote my competition ( the pellet industry ). As most of you know, as a Libertarian, I am opposed to subsidies of any sort, they are designed by government to choose winners and losers for a political price, one of our largest manufacturers here actually ran for Republican governor a few years back, Thank God and the thinking voter for booting him by a landslide and electing a real man, Mr. Paul LePage.
 If you want to fight as I do, take to social media and expose these SOBs, believe me when I say that they watch, they listen and they don't want the truth being told!

[dukethebeagle]

i agree with your point on greed slim.if u know someone lives in an urban area or a developement
why the hell would u sell them a boiler.just shooting yourself in the foot.
complaints are made,town buylaws are passed.state or provincial laws are enacted
then boom no more boilers.
then the dealer who sold that boiler starts whining
but they still don't see the error in there actions

[Strawbale Builder]

 Appreciate the work you have done in Maine Slim, our job as dealers should be education as much as sales and I know we both agree on that. I can't speak to Maine politics, but on a federal level we did have an opportunity to comment on NSPS and still only about 1800 comments. Maybe folks in states that already adopted phase 2 felt no need to comment keeping the number artificially low but still I thought there would be many more from Wisconsin alone. States  like MN, MI and WI that had not adopted phase 2 before federal implementation already did a good job regulating at a local level so I feel such low public input hurt us. No doubt there are many unscrupulous dealers that will sell a boiler to anyone no matter the circumstance and many owners that burn all kinds of nasty things and do not have the common courtesy to respect their neighbors. This has always been the biggest issue and should have been the focus, not a one size fit all federal overreach. Burning wood is independence so anytime it is threatened we have to speak up. More public comment may not have done any good but the small number was disappointing.