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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / more help on pex install - can't decide
« on: August 07, 2013, 09:27:29 PM »
I have more questions on my pex install - specifically, trying to decide between Thermopex or Logstor based on ID and flow/BTU's. Let me give you the full story:
I have a 2550 square foot farmhouse. The house came with an OWB that is rated at 225,000 BTU/hour maximum output. 180 degree water pumps from the woodburner through ¾ inch pex tubing into the basement over a 65 foot run. Once the water enters the basement, it flows through another 30 foot run of ¾” pex tubing before entering a SuperStor Ultra indirect fired hot water heater. Water from the woodburner runs through the heat exchanger in the Superstor, thereby heating the water in the Superstor which then heats the house via baseboard heat. As a side note, the water from the Superstor actually flows through a gas fired boiler first before heading upstairs, with the boiler acting as a backup for the house if the wood furnace can’t keep up with demand. However, for our purposes let’s ignore the gas boiler because my goal is for the wood furnace to meet the full demand of the house.
There are a few problems with this set-up, which I inherited from the previous homeowner. First of all, the underground pex tubes are leaching a ridiculous amount of heat into the ground, to the tune of 15 degrees over the course of the run into the house. As a result, I am in the middle of installing insulated pex lines, either Thermopex or Logstor Pex-Flex, on the underground run to the house. However, after spending two days digging, replacing one broken septic pipe, one underground gutter pipe, and tunneling under a sidewalk, I want to make sure I do this absolutely right the first time. Here’s my dilemma:
Thermopex uses ¾” ID pex tubing. Pex-Flex uses a true 1” ID. Based on previous posts, Pex-Flex is a slightly better product, even though documented Thermopex failures are rare. A buddy of mine is a heating/cooling professional and will be helping me make my final connections in the basement, but he won’t be free until September. Meanwhile, I have an open trench and a wife who wants her gardens back, so I need to make a decision between the two products this week and get the pex buried in the ground. The big question is, is it worth the extra 3 dollars a foot for Pex-Flex, and the extra hour drive to the dealer, to increase the size of my pex from ¾” to 1”? I’m tempted to go with the larger Pex-Flex so I can get more BTUs into the house quicker, but if I do so, then I will need to replace the two 30 foot runs in the basement with either copper pipe or a true 1” non-insulated pex, and I don’t know pricing on these materials. I also don’t know how much more BTU’s the larger ID will give me. Predictably, the Thermopex dealer says the 1/4" difference in ID isn't a big deal and the Pex-Flex dealer uses the larger ID as a selling point. To throw another wild card in the mix, I’m fairly certain the SuperStor setup isn’t ideal: currently, the heat exchanger in the SuperStor can’t keep up with demand, so we may end up going with another type of heat exchanger once my buddy takes a look at everything and tweaks the system. (He mentioned a steel plate heat exchanger and the outdoor wood burner manufacturer included info on “Flatplate” company products in the owner’s manual). Then again, once I’m running 180 degree water into the house with the insulated pex instead of 165, maybe the SuperStor setup will be sufficient.
I’d appreciate any advice on this. I just don’t have the knowledge to run the formulas to see what I really need in terms of volume/flow/btu’s. A few more pieces of information that might help:
· Although we blew in insulation, the house is not very efficient in terms of heat loss (old drafty farm house).
· Right now I’m using Taco pump model 007-F5, 1/25th HP .71 amp 3250 RPM (I don’t know what the gpm’s are with this pump)
· The woodburner also heats a radiant floor setup in my 4 car garage, so I’m close to the maximum square footage this furnace is rated for (3800 square foot total house and garage, I think my model is rated for 4k or 4500)
· As of right now I’m leaning heavily towards buying the Pex-Flex and having the dealer install fittings for 1” copper onto it (Pex-Flex takes special fittings), I figure that way in the short term we can just use an additional fitting to temporarily step back down to ¾” for the basement run or later on go with 1”. That is, unless I have 20 guys on here telling me I’m crazy because there’s no way I’ll ever need the extra ¼” and ¾” will be sufficient in all applications.
Thanks for any input!
I have a 2550 square foot farmhouse. The house came with an OWB that is rated at 225,000 BTU/hour maximum output. 180 degree water pumps from the woodburner through ¾ inch pex tubing into the basement over a 65 foot run. Once the water enters the basement, it flows through another 30 foot run of ¾” pex tubing before entering a SuperStor Ultra indirect fired hot water heater. Water from the woodburner runs through the heat exchanger in the Superstor, thereby heating the water in the Superstor which then heats the house via baseboard heat. As a side note, the water from the Superstor actually flows through a gas fired boiler first before heading upstairs, with the boiler acting as a backup for the house if the wood furnace can’t keep up with demand. However, for our purposes let’s ignore the gas boiler because my goal is for the wood furnace to meet the full demand of the house.
There are a few problems with this set-up, which I inherited from the previous homeowner. First of all, the underground pex tubes are leaching a ridiculous amount of heat into the ground, to the tune of 15 degrees over the course of the run into the house. As a result, I am in the middle of installing insulated pex lines, either Thermopex or Logstor Pex-Flex, on the underground run to the house. However, after spending two days digging, replacing one broken septic pipe, one underground gutter pipe, and tunneling under a sidewalk, I want to make sure I do this absolutely right the first time. Here’s my dilemma:
Thermopex uses ¾” ID pex tubing. Pex-Flex uses a true 1” ID. Based on previous posts, Pex-Flex is a slightly better product, even though documented Thermopex failures are rare. A buddy of mine is a heating/cooling professional and will be helping me make my final connections in the basement, but he won’t be free until September. Meanwhile, I have an open trench and a wife who wants her gardens back, so I need to make a decision between the two products this week and get the pex buried in the ground. The big question is, is it worth the extra 3 dollars a foot for Pex-Flex, and the extra hour drive to the dealer, to increase the size of my pex from ¾” to 1”? I’m tempted to go with the larger Pex-Flex so I can get more BTUs into the house quicker, but if I do so, then I will need to replace the two 30 foot runs in the basement with either copper pipe or a true 1” non-insulated pex, and I don’t know pricing on these materials. I also don’t know how much more BTU’s the larger ID will give me. Predictably, the Thermopex dealer says the 1/4" difference in ID isn't a big deal and the Pex-Flex dealer uses the larger ID as a selling point. To throw another wild card in the mix, I’m fairly certain the SuperStor setup isn’t ideal: currently, the heat exchanger in the SuperStor can’t keep up with demand, so we may end up going with another type of heat exchanger once my buddy takes a look at everything and tweaks the system. (He mentioned a steel plate heat exchanger and the outdoor wood burner manufacturer included info on “Flatplate” company products in the owner’s manual). Then again, once I’m running 180 degree water into the house with the insulated pex instead of 165, maybe the SuperStor setup will be sufficient.
I’d appreciate any advice on this. I just don’t have the knowledge to run the formulas to see what I really need in terms of volume/flow/btu’s. A few more pieces of information that might help:
· Although we blew in insulation, the house is not very efficient in terms of heat loss (old drafty farm house).
· Right now I’m using Taco pump model 007-F5, 1/25th HP .71 amp 3250 RPM (I don’t know what the gpm’s are with this pump)
· The woodburner also heats a radiant floor setup in my 4 car garage, so I’m close to the maximum square footage this furnace is rated for (3800 square foot total house and garage, I think my model is rated for 4k or 4500)
· As of right now I’m leaning heavily towards buying the Pex-Flex and having the dealer install fittings for 1” copper onto it (Pex-Flex takes special fittings), I figure that way in the short term we can just use an additional fitting to temporarily step back down to ¾” for the basement run or later on go with 1”. That is, unless I have 20 guys on here telling me I’m crazy because there’s no way I’ll ever need the extra ¼” and ¾” will be sufficient in all applications.
Thanks for any input!
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Help with thermopex install
« on: August 05, 2013, 07:19:45 AM »
I’m getting ready to dig my trench for a thermopex install for the OWB. I’m leaving the old lines in place, and digging above them for the new thermopex. The trench will be relatively shallow but within recommendations: 10 – 12 inches. I know some guys go deeper, but for a number of reasons I’m leaving the lines shallow. My main concern is that the lines don’t sit in water, and that’s where my questions start.
I had assumed digging the lines shallow would guarantee water wouldn’t be an issue, since our house sits above a downhill slope in the backyard. The bottom of this slope is at least 5 feet below grade, and this is where all the water, including my underground gutters for the house, drains into when it rains. Therefore, my 12” trench can’t be below the water table, right?
Well, I was playing around with the bucket on the tractor and ended up digging a small 16” test pit next to the concrete slab for the OWB. You can see this pit in the photos – the garden hose is sitting in it. It rained a couple days ago and I noticed that the pit immediately filled with water and then took almost 24 hours to completely drain. This concerned me, because if the drainage is that poor, I’m worried about the lines sitting in water every time we have a thaw or it rains.
My first thought was put some stone in the bottom of the thermopex trench, but as my neighbor pointed out, the water still has to go somewhere. Should I dig another trench heading west toward the slope, fill this with stone and tie it into my main trench to give the water someplace to go? There’s also a buried pvc pipe that drains the house gutters, and my neighbor mentioned digging a channel from the thermopex trench to the pvc pipe and drilling some holes in the pipe to allow the water from the thermopex trench to seep in. As you can also see from the photos, the south gutters for the garage do NOT go underground, but spill out right next to where the thermopex trench will be dug, which probably contributed to most of the standing water in my test pit.
How would you guys handle this? I’m a newbie when it comes to excavation and know next to nothing about drainage. I want to avoid fancy solutions since I’m just using the tractor bucket and a shovel to dig, but I also want to get this right the first time. Suggestions?
(I also posted on another forum and included some detailed photos of the job site - you can see the photos here:
http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/241846.htm
I had assumed digging the lines shallow would guarantee water wouldn’t be an issue, since our house sits above a downhill slope in the backyard. The bottom of this slope is at least 5 feet below grade, and this is where all the water, including my underground gutters for the house, drains into when it rains. Therefore, my 12” trench can’t be below the water table, right?
Well, I was playing around with the bucket on the tractor and ended up digging a small 16” test pit next to the concrete slab for the OWB. You can see this pit in the photos – the garden hose is sitting in it. It rained a couple days ago and I noticed that the pit immediately filled with water and then took almost 24 hours to completely drain. This concerned me, because if the drainage is that poor, I’m worried about the lines sitting in water every time we have a thaw or it rains.
My first thought was put some stone in the bottom of the thermopex trench, but as my neighbor pointed out, the water still has to go somewhere. Should I dig another trench heading west toward the slope, fill this with stone and tie it into my main trench to give the water someplace to go? There’s also a buried pvc pipe that drains the house gutters, and my neighbor mentioned digging a channel from the thermopex trench to the pvc pipe and drilling some holes in the pipe to allow the water from the thermopex trench to seep in. As you can also see from the photos, the south gutters for the garage do NOT go underground, but spill out right next to where the thermopex trench will be dug, which probably contributed to most of the standing water in my test pit.
How would you guys handle this? I’m a newbie when it comes to excavation and know next to nothing about drainage. I want to avoid fancy solutions since I’m just using the tractor bucket and a shovel to dig, but I also want to get this right the first time. Suggestions?
(I also posted on another forum and included some detailed photos of the job site - you can see the photos here:
http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/241846.htm
3
Plumbing / filter for debris?
« on: October 05, 2012, 08:00:02 PM »My OWB got a makeover this summer (major rust out, hole the size of your fist on the top of the water jacket). I'm in the middle of getting it up and running again and noticing a lot of left over rust particles in the water. I'm going to try to flush out what I can, but I got thinking, wouldn't it be a good idea to have some kind of filtering system on these things? Sooner or later, every boiler is going to see some level of internal rusting, and I imagine those little bits of rust play havoc on the pumps. I've got two new Tacos on this thing and don't want to waste them if I can't get all the debris out. There's a braided steel line connected to the circulator pump, I'd love to rig up a filter there to catch the worst of it. The only question is, what kind of filter could I use? I'm tempted to try an oil or hydraulic filter. I figure water is a lot thinner than oil so flow shouldn't be a problem, run it a few days then pull the filter apart and check how bad the paper is. What do you think?
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