Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Scott7m on March 07, 2013, 03:27:26 PM
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I know this is sure to create a bit of hostility but I think the record should be clear that foam filled lines can and do fail as well. As you can see in these pics, when thermopex gets a hole in it the package fails, it absorbs water at a rapid pace and could potentially cause more heat loss than a wrapped package with a hole in it. Keep in mind I sell both products and I'm not taking sides, i just don't think it's fair for people to be led to believe thermopex is indestructible or even the best as far as heat loss.
These pics come from a respected forum member who has had his thermopex to fail and is now costing him a lot of wood.
In this pic you can clearly see where the line goes under the driveway.
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t387/Scott7m/53DF8413-5D1D-4A49-8A77-2F312B37D49F-486-0000002B003C6197.jpg)
This pic clearly shows the thermopex path leading up to the home, also water logged.
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t387/Scott7m/7989A6D4-450E-4F0D-B246-E1506B157653-486-0000002AFAC15860.jpg)
Another shot of the driveway, clearly showing more snow melt away from the driveway.
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t387/Scott7m/C77B2E72-B072-4256-9E69-1D6CC790957D-486-0000002AB20671D8.jpg)
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But with that being said, which one would you prefer if you where installing new lines on your boiler?
Well, personally I'm thinking that this summer I'm going to buy some 6" PVC and pull some 5 wrap though it, other members are considering this as well. I have the heat loss data on thermopex and 5 wrap, 5 wrap is actually better as far as heat loss, though the tiles are a bit thinner. I think the absolute best option is to give yourself 2 layers of protection, whether its a bigger corrugated tile or PVC, if your only going to do this once and want the best chance that's what I would do. I think that could be a lifetime line set!
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Not sure that I can buy into the "respected forum member" thing Scott! ;)
Just so everyone knows "the rest of the story", those pictures are of my driveway and yard, and after a relatively mild day here today, my yard looks much worse(as far as snow melt is concerned) than those pictures reveal.
I started noticing excessive wood consumption toward the end of last year, and after one of the the last frosts we had last year, I observed basically the same thing that is shown in the pictures from today. I buried my line the way that CB recommended at the time- 18" deep through my yard and 24" deep under my driveway. The worst spot(and lowest) for the ground thawing is actually about 10' away from the boiler. I dug up that spot near the boiler during the summer and found a "split" in the thermopex. The split was wide enough that I could clearly see the color of the pex lines. I ended up making the trench about 3-4' long and didn't find any more splits in the pipe, so I taped it up with the repair tape that my CB dealer recommended and covered it back up. The foam insulation was saturated. I can't be sure how far back it was saturated, but there was enough water in it to drip about a pint or so in the 3 days I had it uncovered.
When I dig it up to replace it this spring, I'll take some pictures with my camera(used my phone today, and I'm too old to figure out how to post pictures from my phone, so I sent them to Scott) and post them here to show all interested.
Just so everyone knows, I'm not here to bash Central Boiler or the products they sell. I'm simply here to show folks what has happened to me.
A buddy of mine at work also buried some thermopex at the same time that I did(this is our 5th year), and he also has what he feels is excessive heat loss. He only has about 35' buried. He has one spot on his sidewalk where the line goes under it that will thaw out much sooner than the rest of his sidewalk. Neither of us are adding water to our boilers, so a leak back is not an issue.
Our pipe came from the same roll, so maybe the lot that ours came from was bad. Right now, that is just speculation on my part.
I'll probably pursue this issue with CB further should I find more splits when I get the whole line dug up.
I was happy with the way that it functioned in the first 3 1/2 years.
The only way that I'll bury insulated pex in the future will be by first pulling it through either a 6 or 8" tile or PVC.
It appears that water is definitely our insulated line's worst enemy.
Sorry for the long post. I've got to go now and get things in order for a quick Canadian trip to a farm show in London Ontario. I'm picking up 'ol WillieG on the way.
G' Night all,
Marty
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I have a 6" PVC pipe running about 2-3' under ground with my lines running threw it. I still have this problem. There not wrapped lines but I don't know if the ground between my shed just allows water to settle since it kinda dips down in that area and always has but I see snow melt in that area more than I think it should.
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Maybe its just me but where the pex runs under the driveway there is that a damp area where the pipe is leaking??? It might just be the way the pic is or the way I look at it but looks like wet spots to me??
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I have a 6" PVC pipe running about 2-3' under ground with my lines running threw it. I still have this problem. There not wrapped lines but I don't know if the ground between my shed just allows water to settle since it kinda dips down in that area and always has but I see snow melt in that area more than I think it should.
Your lines arent insulated though, huge difference. I doubt there is water in your pipe, it's likely just loosing a lot of btu due to no insulation
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No there not. There is only the pipe insulation that self seals itself. Its amazing that the pipe is buried so far down, just simple foam wrapped and sits in a 6" PVC pipe losses that much heat? You think the PVC would help keep most of that in? If 3-5" wrapped pex wasnt so $$$$ Id definetly be going that route for sure.
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No there not. There is only the pipe insulation that self seals itself. Its amazing that the pipe is buried so far down, just simple foam wrapped and sits in a 6" PVC pipe losses that much heat? You think the PVC would help keep most of that in? If 3-5" wrapped pex wasnt so $$$$ Id definetly be going that route for sure.
It's only expensive not to have good insulation, consider the amount of wood it's going to take, the time, the gas, the effort it takes to cut all the extra wood. Some folks have seen wood use reduction reduced 30% or more.
PVC has no insulation value, once the heat escapes the pex pipe itself its gone, the inside of the pipe simply gets heated up and the cold earth wicks that heat away like crazy. You may see it at. The surface but you can't see the huge amount of dirt around the pipe that's being made much warmer by the heat loss.
That being said, you could take regular pex and bury it deep enough that you would never see snow melt, would that mean it was well insulated, of course not, it would just mean the amount of soil around the pipe is able to absorb the btu's
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So is it safe to say you should get no snow melt above your lines? If you are using the pex?
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So is it safe to say you should get no snow melt above your lines? If you are using the pex?
This is crazy excessive, he had no melt for a couple years and then this.
Here is something I see happen a lot to me though, I install the lined in the fall, grass never has time to re establish itself, and therefore the bare dirt from the stove to the home makes it harder for snow to stick and melts faster due to it being bare ground and not grassy, sometimes folks think that's due to the lines themselves but the next season when they have grass back over it, things are back to normal.
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So is it safe to say you should get no snow melt above your lines? If you are using the pex?
This is crazy excessive, he had no melt for a couple years and then this.
Here is something I see happen a lot to me though, I install the lined in the fall, grass never has time to re establish itself, and therefore the bare dirt from the stove to the home makes it harder for snow to stick and melts faster due to it being bare ground and not grassy, sometimes folks think that's due to the lines themselves but the next season when they have grass back over it, things are back to normal.
Scott, That happened to me during my first season of operating the OWB. I called my older bro asking him to take a look at it cause it scared the buggars out of me. He essentially said the samething you did, once grass grows in the area the snow will not melt. This is my second season and the grass was a pain in the arse to mow but the snow hasn't melted at all. My bro operates with more common sense than I do.
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So is it safe to say you should get no snow melt above your lines? If you are using the pex?
This is crazy excessive, he had no melt for a couple years and then this.
Here is something I see happen a lot to me though, I install the lined in the fall, grass never has time to re establish itself, and therefore the bare dirt from the stove to the home makes it harder for snow to stick and melts faster due to it being bare ground and not grassy, sometimes folks think that's due to the lines themselves but the next season when they have grass back over it, things are back to normal.
Scott, That happened to me during my first season of operating the OWB. I called my older bro asking him to take a look at it cause it scared the buggars out of me. He essentially said the samething you did, once grass grows in the area the snow will not melt. This is my second season and the grass was a pain in the arse to mow but the snow hasn't melted at all. My bro operates with more common sense than I do.
Yep snow has a hard time sticking to bare ground in general, plus when a bit of sun hits it, it warms much faster than the grass covered soil.
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But with that being said, which one would you prefer if you where installing new lines on your boiler?
Well, personally I'm thinking that this summer I'm going to buy some 6" PVC and pull some 5 wrap though it, other members are considering this as well. I have the heat loss data on thermopex and 5 wrap, 5 wrap is actually better as far as heat loss, though the tiles are a bit thinner. I think the absolute best option is to give yourself 2 layers of protection, whether its a bigger corrugated tile or PVC, if your only going to do this once and want the best chance that's what I would do. I think that could be a lifetime line set!
Are you buying the five wrap and pulling it through yourself? When you say 6" PVC are you talking about the black corrugated pipe still.
No... My thoughts for making it indestructible is to take 6" PVC pipe and put the 5 wrap inside of it, corrugated pipe and all! So you have PVC, corrugated pipe, 5 wraps, and then your lines... 2 layers of hard hard plastic
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The only bend I will have is coming up at the back of the pad and down the side of the pad, I will manually slide the 90's over it so I'm not having to pull it through them, I'll just slide the 10' sticks over the pipe from there onto the house
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I will go with the thermopex . Thanks everyone for your help
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I will go with the thermopex . Thanks everyone for your help
Kinda ironic you said that in the thermopex failure thread.
If your wanting foam filled, may I ask why you would rather have thermopex than logstor?? The outer shell of logstor is way thicker, the foam is of higher quality, the lines are bigger in diameter!?
Just wondering?
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The thermopex is getting worse as winter is progressing...
Check this out where it passes under the road, keep in mind it's doing this other places as well.
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t387/Scott7m/40FE6DC6-B963-4CF9-8AAC-62F222B05149-2712-000002816A5524B7.jpg)
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People pay a lot of money for heated driveways. ;D
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The only bend I will have is coming up at the back of the pad and down the side of the pad, I will manually slide the 90's over it so I'm not having to pull it through them, I'll just slide the 10' sticks over the pipe from there onto the house
Having had a system with a lot of heat loss with uninsulated lines,
I am paranoid. I bought z-supply line, ran it inside of 6" pvc pipe.
I used 45's everywhere and had no problem at all pulling it through.
I ran it about 45 feet.
I am having very liitle heat loss, or so I believe, since I seem to be burning a lot less wood
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Then 6" of closed cell foam?
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Not sure what you was referring to but sounds like he simply pulled the entire wrapped line package through a 6" tile. To me that's probably the ultimate way of doing this
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Then 6" of closed cell foam?
If you are referring to my post. No.
I bought z-supply 4 line insulated pex. Then I taped thermostat and electric wire to the outside of the ribbed tile and then i pulled with a rope and the brother -in -law guided it into 6" sewer and drain pipe. Was not hard at all. My thoughts were if I ever have a problem I can pull it all back out without digging up the yard.
And it does real well...
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Then 6" of closed cell foam?
If you are referring to my post. No.
I bought z-supply 4 line insulated pex. Then I taped thermostat and electric wire to the outside of the ribbed tile and then i pulled with a rope and the brother -in -law guided it into 6" sewer and drain pipe. Was not hard at all. My thoughts were if I ever have a problem I can pull it all back out without digging up the yard.
And it does real well...
That's supposed to be one of my summer projects, to buy new 5 wrap and pull the entire thing through a 6" PVC tile, hopefully I get to it
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Then 6" of closed cell foam?
If you are referring to my post. No.
I bought z-supply 4 line insulated pex. Then I taped thermostat and electric wire to the outside of the ribbed tile and then i pulled with a rope and the brother -in -law guided it into 6" sewer and drain pipe. Was not hard at all. My thoughts were if I ever have a problem I can pull it all back out without digging up the yard.
And it does real well...
Z-supply doesn't make 4 line insulated pex.
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They did until last summer, he said he was quitting because it was too hard to work with. I bought part of his last roll.
I was kind of hoping he would change his mind because I think my brother in law and son in law both should switch to it.
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Heres mine - Hmmmm
Pic taken 3/18 in Northern IL
Had just rained for couple days with warmer weather and then turned cold and light snow.
I freaked out, ran tape in pipe end to end, found Zero water.
Gauges show 3deg loss in round trip with no load - 250' round trip
Installed in Oct last year.
Badger 3 wrap in 4" Black corregated pipe as supplied
2' buried with about 1' sand above and below pipe for protection from rocks and then covered with dirt / gravel.
No snow melt all year except a small amount near unit where all there lines come into Furnace on warmer days and small amount where it enters house 4" below grade.
Interesting that it did this only on rare occasion. Not sure i oculd ahve done any better on the install except the PVC and maybe 5wrap.
Wonder how much Im actually losing to the ground or is this a freak thoing based on weather / ground moisture since the pipe is dry.
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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Wet soil wicks away heat much faster, thats likely why you seen it after the rain. They all seem to do this a bit when the ground is near freezing or extremely wet.