Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: CJ on July 13, 2011, 12:41:04 PM
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So, like many other people, I'm looking to break away from the strangle hold of gas companies and seeking out other alternatives as the price keeps rising. Our most recent quote was $400/mo for this coming winter on natural gas.
While googling these alternatives, I came up short most of the time. Lots of advertisements for different OWFs that seemed sketchy at best and not a whole lot of real, truthful information about them, so I googled for forums and found this site and have been reading up quite a bit of information but was left with more questions for each answer I got.
The first thing I found is that we'd have to get a gasifier, which isn't a big issue because of it being a more efficient and puts off less pollution. Big bonuses in my book, and when I think of the money I'm saving and how it will pretty much pay itself off in about two years of usage, I don't mind the small extra cost.
My questions are based on getting started from scratch and switching our heading system over.
The first issue is, we're looking to heat two houses with this. The first is about 3,200sq ft, the second is around 850. They are about 60 feet apart from each other and the furnace would be going in our back yard between them.
Second was about brands. Obviously we want something high quality, but I've not been up on what brands are good to go with, and as I said before, a lot of what google was pulling up had websites more fitting for infomercials.
Third, in the first house, we use the natural gas furnace to heat the hot water for showers, sinks, etc during winter months. Would it be possible to do the same using an outdoor furnace or is that getting into a whole other area of frustration that isn't worth dealing with and just use the hot water tank year round that we use for summer months?
I also read there is a certain type of wood that you have to use with a gasifier, but I didn't get too far into reading up on that yet.
Anything else I should know as a newbie while trying to decide if this is the correct route to go?
Oh, and some other information that may be useful:
We live in central Pennsylvania, very rural area, town of about 1000 people or so.
Our heating system in both houses is currently Hydronic. The larger house uses natural gas while the smaller uses propane.
Thanks heaps in advance. :)
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So, like many other people, I'm looking to break away from the strangle hold of gas companies and seeking out other alternatives as the price keeps rising. Our most recent quote was $400/mo for this coming winter on natural gas.
While googling these alternatives, I came up short most of the time. Lots of advertisements for different OWFs that seemed sketchy at best and not a whole lot of real, truthful information about them, so I googled for forums and found this site and have been reading up quite a bit of information but was left with more questions for each answer I got.
The first thing I found is that we'd have to get a gasifier, which isn't a big issue because of it being a more efficient and puts off less pollution. Big bonuses in my book, and when I think of the money I'm saving and how it will pretty much pay itself off in about two years of usage, I don't mind the small extra cost.
My questions are based on getting started from scratch and switching our heading system over.
The first issue is, we're looking to heat two houses with this. The first is about 3,200sq ft, the second is around 850. They are about 60 feet apart from each other and the furnace would be going in our back yard between them.
You can heat two homes with one outdoor stove. wood usage will be more
Second was about brands. Obviously we want something high quality, but I've not been up on what brands are good to go with, and as I said before, a lot of what google was pulling up had websites more fitting for infomercials.
Brand i have no idea really but i think there are lemons in every brand out there and the way the owner treats them can come into play as well. you may have driven one type of care all y our life and maybe owned several and then you get a bad one and i think these stoves may be like that as well. I would search out the proven ones first ..the onels that have been around the longest and have a good track record. i think these forums may hellp with that
Third, in the first house, we use the natural gas furnace to heat the hot water for showers, sinks, etc during winter months. Would it be possible to do the same using an outdoor furnace or is that getting into a whole other area of frustration that isn't worth dealing with and just use the hot water tank year round that we use for summer months?
You can quite easily adapt your domestic water to one of these stoves and with the turn of a valve go back to your gas heater for the summer
I also read there is a certain type of wood that you have to use with a gasifier, but I didn't get too far into reading up on that yet.
Anything else I should know as a newbie while trying to decide if this is the correct route to go?
about all i know of the type of wood for these gasifiers...DRY less than 20 percent moisture (one year old cut split and piled wood)
Oh, and some other information that may be useful:
We live in central Pennsylvania, very rural area, town of about 1000 people or so.
Our heating system in both houses is currently Hydronic. The larger house uses natural gas while the smaller uses propane.
i am sure ther will be other posts from folks whom own and operate these gasifier stoves with pros and cons...welcome to the forum and good luck
Thanks heaps in advance. :)
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Well you have come to the right spot, there is a wealth of info on this site, lots of reading. I personnally think the gassifiers are the way to go, much more efficient, far less smoke, and much more heat out of less wood. Having said that if you are not going to be burning well seasoned wood I would go with a conv. boiler. It makes a world of difference if you have well seasoned wood the gassifiers work great. I would look at the Natures Comfort GT-220 or the Portage & Main Optimizer 250, either will heat your 2 houses and all the hot water you can use. :thumbup:
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CJ
If you plan to heat that many sq. ft., I guess I would recommend something bigger than the optamizer 250 or the nc 220. You have over 4000 sq.ft., and you'll want to size your boiler to around twice what the manufacturer suggests their units will heat. A cb 2400, wood doctor he8000, p&m 350, or like sized boiler would be my suggestion to you. Of those three, I would recommend the he8000 wood doctor,mostly because of the way they are built and the materials used in their construction. If you speak to a metallurgist about boilers, they will tell you the differences between cold rolled steel-which is better than stainless-and boiler plate-which is the best of the three. From the discussions I've had, it becomes clear that in a boiler application, boiler plate is way better. It has much better ductility when exposed to frequent cycling. I am learning more every day about these gasifiers, and I applaud you for your decision to buy one. Make sure and burn dry wood and you'll be happy. If you have the opportunity to see one under full gasification I would encourage you to take it.
Keep us posted.
Marty
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Thanks for the replies, guys. It's nice to have some good, solid products to look at.
The other thing I noticed is that it seems like it's impossible to find people online that actually sell these things and get an price estimate on the actual gasifier itself. Any suggestions on where to start looking there?
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I'm not sure I'd buy one online. You can easily find a local dealer for whichever brand you choose by doing a search. Most brands have dealer locators built right into their sites. If not, they will all have a phone # you may call to find where your closest dealer might be. A lot of folks have found out the hard way just how important dealer support can be. There aren't that many parts on a boiler, but when it's 0* and you have a blower or pump or a solenoid quit you'll appreciate a dealer close by who stocks the parts you need to get you up and running again.
Where abouts in Pa. are you located? We have many tractor pulling friends from your state.
Marty
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CJ,
I'm here in NE PA. I just bought a P&M Opt 250 for my home. Not done with the hook-up yet and, of course can't give a "report" on useage.
But, I did shop around as much as I could before making my decision to buy one. I had the opportunity to see the P&M and the CB gasifier's working and they are both well made. I would agree that you might consider just one step larger, up to the Opt 350 or CB's equivalent.
I chose P&M because it appears to be slightly more efficient. Again, both are well made.
Looking forward to seeing the "fruits" of my labor in operation around the end of October.
Best of luck on your new adventure!!
Bill
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HAWKEN ENERGY is comeing out with a gasifiers that will burn green wood at 96% efficient stack temp at 120 it will blow all other a way. it call xc-10 it is easy maintance it will be price lower then most stove. It will be out in fall 2011. :thumbup:
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96% Rigggght! Bath salts optional???
Bill G.
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Welcome.
I bought a Wood Doctor HE5000 last year. Very happy with its performance. DRY wood is key. I have read many promising things on the Portage and Main also. Sounds like you would want a bigger unit for the two dwellings. HE 8000 maybe or =. I was told by the owner of Wood Doctor I could put mine within 10' of the house. Not sure about codes, just repeating what I was told. My humble opinion, good choice going gasser. I know I finally made the right choice the first time
Rich
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So I can't seem to get a strait answer anywhere. We've been looking at the WD HE-8000 as the possible choice since it seems to be highly recommended, but I can't seem to get a quote from anyone on the cost of the furnace itself so I know how much we're going to be looking at spending. I sent an email to WD because their website lacks a list of dealers and have yet to hear back from them.
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CJ-
Give me a call @ 989-640-4074 and I'll give you a few #'s to get the ball rolling for ya. They sell directly from the factory also,so you can eliminate a middle man,but you give up local dealer support.
Bill G-
Well said!
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CJ
If you plan to heat that many sq. ft., I guess I would recommend something bigger than the optamizer 250 or the nc 220. You have over 4000 sq.ft., and you'll want to size your boiler to around twice what the manufacturer suggests their units will heat. A cb 2400, wood doctor he8000, p&m 350, or like sized boiler would be my suggestion to you.
That doesn't make any sense. You don't recommend a GT220 because it should be double the sq ft rating but it is. (gt220 is rated at 8000 sq ft) They also have the GT500 which would be plenty big for sure.
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HAWKEN ENERGY is comeing out with a gasifiers that will burn green wood at 96% efficient stack temp at 120 it will blow all other a way. it call xc-10 it is easy maintance it will be price lower then most stove. It will be out in fall 2011. :thumbup:
:bash: we need a smiley that is rolling on the floor laughing. If anyone believes that I have some bridges forsale cheap. ;D
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Last reply from me for now, as a lot of people here already know, I am a Nature's Comfort dealer. I would suggest looking up the local dealer and taking a look at one. If you don't like it, it won't bother me. (I won't make a cent off it if you buy it or not) but they are well built boilers and priced very reasonably. If you want to know anything specific about them you can send me a message.
If both houses are heated right now with hydronic systems them it will be real easy to hook them up. Just put a flat plate heat exchanger in and it will operate pretty much the same as the gas system did. (you probably need some controls, etc too) If the gas boiler heated the domestic hot water then the OWB will too. If not, you will need to add it on.
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Last reply from me for now, as a lot of people here already know, I am a Nature's Comfort dealer. I would suggest looking up the local dealer and taking a look at one. If you don't like it, it won't bother me. (I won't make a cent off it if you buy it or not) but they are well built boilers and priced very reasonably. If you want to know anything specific about them you can send me a message.
If both houses are heated right now with hydronic systems them it will be real easy to hook them up. Just put a flat plate heat exchanger in and it will operate pretty much the same as the gas system did. (you probably need some controls, etc too) If the gas boiler heated the domestic hot water then the OWB will too. If not, you will need to add it on.
RSI-
It isn't my intention to cut down you or your particular brand of boiler. If I've offended you in any way, shape, or form, hey, well, I'm sorry dude. I am just trying to help steer a fellow in the right direction. According to NC's web site the 220 heats up to 6000 sq.ft., not 8000. I'm hoping people can learn from my silly mistakes and not undersize their boilers. I bought my Pro Series 100 (Empyre) in Jan. of this year because (1)I got a great deal on it and (2) the company said it will heat up to 3000 sq.ft. It WILL NOT. I have 1700-1800 ft. and when it's very cold(anything under 10 degrees) I am out loading it at 10 pm. so that it will make it till 6 am. There is no way it will heat an average insulated 3000 sq. ft home in my climate. It is an awesome little boiler that I just love, but there is no way that I would ever try and convince someone that it is something that it is not. It will, however, heat a 1200-1500 sq. ft home that is insulated better than mine with no problem. What I need is one with a manufacturers rating of 4-5000 sq ft. The 500 looks like a better option than the 220 for CJ, but I'm thinking it might be extreme over kill. The Portage and Main 450 would probably be in the same league as your 500, but I believe that it too is even more extreme over kill.
Are the NC stoves phase 2 compliant? I haven't visited the EPA's web site in a while, but as big of a company as they appear to be, I'm sure they are. Take care,
Marty
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So I can't seem to get a strait answer anywhere. We've been looking at the WD HE-8000 as the possible choice since it seems to be highly recommended, but I can't seem to get a quote from anyone on the cost of the furnace itself so I know how much we're going to be looking at spending. I sent an email to WD because their website lacks a list of dealers and have yet to hear back from them.
http://mainewooddoctor.com/images/topgraphic.jpg (http://mainewooddoctor.com/images/topgraphic.jpg)
Call, Callie she will give you the cost over the phone. I just bought the He 5000 + 8000 she broke all the costs down and total cost
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Last reply from me for now, as a lot of people here already know, I am a Nature's Comfort dealer. I would suggest looking up the local dealer and taking a look at one. If you don't like it, it won't bother me. (I won't make a cent off it if you buy it or not) but they are well built boilers and priced very reasonably. If you want to know anything specific about them you can send me a message.
If both houses are heated right now with hydronic systems them it will be real easy to hook them up. Just put a flat plate heat exchanger in and it will operate pretty much the same as the gas system did. (you probably need some controls, etc too) If the gas boiler heated the domestic hot water then the OWB will too. If not, you will need to add it on.
RSI-
It isn't my intention to cut down you or your particular brand of boiler. If I've offended you in any way, shape, or form, hey, well, I'm sorry dude. I am just trying to help steer a fellow in the right direction. According to NC's web site the 220 heats up to 6000 sq.ft., not 8000. I'm hoping people can learn from my silly mistakes and not undersize their boilers. I bought my Pro Series 100 (Empyre) in Jan. of this year because (1)I got a great deal on it and (2) the company said it will heat up to 3000 sq.ft. It WILL NOT. I have 1700-1800 ft. and when it's very cold(anything under 10 degrees) I am out loading it at 10 pm. so that it will make it till 6 am. There is no way it will heat an average insulated 3000 sq. ft home in my climate. It is an awesome little boiler that I just love, but there is no way that I would ever try and convince someone that it is something that it is not. It will, however, heat a 1200-1500 sq. ft home that is insulated better than mine with no problem. What I need is one with a manufacturers rating of 4-5000 sq ft. The 500 looks like a better option than the 220 for CJ, but I'm thinking it might be extreme over kill. The Portage and Main 450 would probably be in the same league as your 500, but I believe that it too is even more extreme over kill.
Are the NC stoves phase 2 compliant? I haven't visited the EPA's web site in a while, but as big of a company as they appear to be, I'm sure they are. Take care,
Marty
You didn't offend me at all. I don't care if you make any negative remarks about Nature's Comfort (I don't own the company ;D) if they are true. I was just trying to point out the errors. You reply just looked kind of strange to me. If you had made any other remark about why not to look at it I would not have even replied. The only reason was that it was too small but didn't mention the larger model.
Where did you see that the 220 is rated at 6000 sq ft? I just checked the NC site and it says 8000.
I would never sell a boiler rated at 3000 sq ft to someone with more than a well insulated 1500 sq ft house. A boiler that small won't hold much wood. It will just end in an unhappy customer. I don't know where they come up with the sq rating but anyone with any brand that I know of that went anywhere close to the max regretted it. It is a really stupid way to do it anyway. What they should do it get a rating based off gas/oil usage. (and not the way CB does it)
The only reason I see to have it is to compare sizes between manufacturers but I am not even sure how close they are.
Does the OP require an EPA Phase 2? Nature's Comfort has not had them certified because it would add $500 - $1000 to the cost of each boiler and they said it looks like the regulations might change soon and they would lose a huge investment when it becomes worthless. (like phase 1 is now)
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RSI-
I just googled NC 220 and 7 sites came up, and 4 of the 7 say the 220 heats 6000.([pdf] www.naturescomfortllc.com (http://www.naturescomfortllc.com)) The one that I checked the other day said 6000, and that's what I went with. I have never cut down any OWB brand, and I have no intention of doing so. I went to my local NC dealer back in April and he was kind enough to take me to one of his customers and show me a 220 in operation- knowing that I wouldn't be purchasing one. I think they are a real descent machine. I guess I'm confused as to where the negative remark about N C was in any of my posts? Perhaps you could clue me in.
From what I have read, it's only around $20-$30,000 to test an OWB with the EPA. That amount really shouldn't raise the cost of an OWB by a grand or so, should it?
And just so you know- I bought my Empyre knowing full that for a few weeks a year it would require 3x/day fueling. My local dealer is a personal friend of mine and the availability of this one came up in casual conversation, he advised me that I may have to load it more than twice a day when it's very cold, and I just had to have it. It has served me extremely well, and I'm really going to miss it when it's sold.
I think CB is a very good company with tried and true and tested boilers, with thousands and thousands of happy customers, so I guess I wouldn't discredit their rating methodology because it's obviously working well for them(THEY'RE NUMBER ONE IN SALES BY A HUGE PERCENTAGE!).
Have a great evening,
Marty
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I think you read my post wrong. I said you did not say anything negative about it except for the size.
I think I found what you are seeing is an old brochure. They raised the rating up not long after they started selling them. http://www.naturescomfortllc.com/gt-series-downdraft-wood-furnace/ (http://www.naturescomfortllc.com/gt-series-downdraft-wood-furnace/)
I will email Nature's Comfort and see what is going on with multiple size ratings floating around.
I didn't say anything bad about CB other than I don't like their sizing numbers. It really confuses customers.
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RSI-
Click on the page you are using to illustrate your point, scroll to the bottom, then click where it says in blue "GT-220 Downdraft Gasification Brochure". Near the bottom of that page it gives specifications, and the first one on the list says "Heats UP TO 6000 sq. ft."
I guess I read and understand things differently than you. When someone makes the remark "It is a really stupid way to do it anyway", I conclude from that statement that there is a certain amount of negativity towards that company in question. Shoot, maybe 50 years on this planet still isn't enough time for me to be able to understand what a negative remark is anyway.
When you state "I don't care if you make any negative remarks about Nature's Comfort", the implication is certainly clear that the facts that I stated were taken as negativity by you, and I will ever so humbly apologize to you again, and again, and again, until you fully understand that my original post contained not one ounce of malice toward you or your product line of OWB's.
Hope this clarifies everything from my side of the computer screen.
Regards,
Marty
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I had a post all written out but after re-reading through the whole thread I decided to just delete it. What I was trying to say is obviously not coming out right. I did not try to start an argument or offend anyone.
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no harm no fowl, first beer is on me