Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Bill G on September 19, 2011, 06:11:15 AM
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Built first fire @9pm last night!!
P&M Opt 250. Got plenty of condensation from the fresh filling of 55 deg well water. Understandable, I suppose.
This morning finds it drying out, with none in the fire box, and just some stains left on the concrete. Deem that event Normal!
Can make one wonder, "Where's the leak"??? Next...
Set controller for 170 set and on at 160. 70 plate W-W HX in basement. Fed by Taco 008 pump. 50 some feet of the Logstor buried and 35 feet of 1" oxygen barrier pex inside. Got to 170 at OWB and only see 150 deg going into propane boiler.
***** The propane boiler still fires when a zone calls for heat??? So, for now, shut switch of on propane boiler.
All zones still work. Advice? Thanx in advance...
I cut in a tee off top of propane boiler and went to common return pipe from all zones. Installed clapper type check valve on this line couple inches off of tee. Common return line now goes to 70 plate WWHX. Return from HX to propane boiler with taco 007 pump at lowest point, after HX, running continously. 2nd floor tstats shut down, but still hit 70deg? Menopausel wife had rough nights sleep!! (gave her my side of bed near window!!)
***** I think maybe flowing through zones, even though check valve installed correctly???
High note....7 pcs of split got her up to temp and 2 pcs this morning to keep fire in box! Looks like its out when idling! No smoke! Did smoke a bit on initial firing, but smooth right out when started gassifying. Of course it was night when built fire, but didn't look bad at all.
Did add 1/2 pale of ashes from old wood stove in basement to floor of new OWB, as hot fire right on new floor don't seem too good.
Thanks for reading, look forward to thoughts/replys.
Bill G
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You did it! Impressed!
Stain on concrete? From door gasket? When I first fired mine up I had alot of moisture also, from sweating I presume. Sound like the same?
No smoke? Sounds like mine when it's at idle.
Not sure about the rest of your install. Are you heating your HWH first? Plate HX or sidearm? Could you be loosing 20F there? Not sure, just guessing.
Is this just a test run or are you on line for the winter? I'm on heat mode (heatpump) as the high temps have been chilly. But not cold enough to fire up the CB.
Don't forget those pics!
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Good morning, Ridgekid!!!
First time in years, I said "should have fire by Sunday" and hit the mark even if it was 9 pm!
Yeah, condensation from all of the HX tubes and fire box. Well water was cold! All good there this morning, just some streaks and stains from it running down here and there. Will give "shine job" shortly!
Loosing 20 deg some how? Comes in from OWB, bottom of HX return from top. From "Ol money eater" Propane boiler, off top, Tee to common return pipe (1" copper) Straight through tee feeds zones when called. 5 zones return vertical to that horizontal common return. I have a clapper type check valve right off this tee. So, when a zone pump calls, the return pressure from that zone's pump should close check/clapper valve and go through HX. When there is no call for heat, the "cont. on" pump should pull through HX, push into bottom of propane boiler, out top and through check/clapper valve.
I suppose I better consult with the good plumber who installed this system when we built this house, back in 2000. He's good about such stuff and will be able to hopefully offer up some thoughts/solutions. In the mean time, I'm all ears from you guys!!! Thanks much!
My friends think my basement near propane boiler looks like a picture of the boiler room on a submarine! Quite busy looking but neatly done. Just some bugs to work through.
Jr. is in school, so pic's impossible til' afternoon.
Sorry for my poor narrative description of my system.
Thinking maybe should try upping OWB to 180deg off 170 on? Maybe this temp will satisfy propane boiler, so it don't fire when a zone calls for heat? But, the 20deg drop don't seem to right?
Bill
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Hi Bill G
I don't know about you plumbing issues, but you will find that your gassifier will work much better if you run it at a higher temp. When the refractory stone stays hotter the stove will begin gassifying much faster and will actually burn less wood. I don't have the same model you do but have seen one in use and it was very impressive. :thumbup:
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BiilG-
I don't want to add to the confusion as I'm not familiar with Propane boilers. But here's my concept of your setup.
Your using the OWB to heat the water in the Propane bolier, is that right? Which means the OWB pump is continually flowing hotwater, through your 70 plate HX. Your propane boiler has it's own pump circulating the water through your zones when called for? Does the pump on the propane boiler only kick on when it calls for heat? Or do you have a third pump thats circulating water from the 70 plate to keep the propane water hot?
Another dumb question- On your 70 plate, if mounted vertical one side (top and bottom is to the OWB and the other side is Propane boiler right? (When I first got my 20 plate it was not clear how to set up as I thought both ports on top was one system and the bottom was the other-which would of been wrong) And the two systems are crossing flowing? (Does the OWB water go in bottom and come out top and propane boiler go in top and come out bottom?) Again I apologize if this was obvious to you, just passing on what I learned after I recieved my 20 plate.
How about the DHWX? do you have one? (or sidearm?)
I may not have contributed anything here, but it is a learning expierance for me.
EDIT: One more thing- I added pipe wrap around all my pex in the basement. Pretty cheap investment and makes the install look better.
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To keep the propane boiler from firing, I would just use a strap on aquastat it turn off the propane boiler when the pipes on the OWB side of the plate are hot.
You will get a 10-20° lower temperature on the secondary side of the plate. The only way to get it closer is going bigger. Even if you went up to a 100 plate it would probably be a few degrees hotter but still likely won't get to the same temp.
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most all heat/cooling gurus say 20 degree between feed and return is acceptable
your taco 08 pump curve is (depending on the head pressure) 0- 15 gpm your target flow should be the middle of the chart. that puts you at about 6 gpm at 12 foot head. (if head is less gpm is more) if you were to upgrade to a larger pump (say a taco 11) your pump curve would be between 0-31 gpm and your target area to be near the middle of the chart would be 16 gpm at 17 foot head. if you were to deliver 10 gpm to your exchanger at 170 degrees you would be delivering about 100,000 btu per hour and i do believe in hot water systems this is a good target. perhaps your 08 is delivering this now? if yoru water temp is lower you need more gpm.
you dont want a pump that is too large either..i would (if you can) see how many gpm you are delivering to your exchanger now and see if you think you need to improve that or not. i mean if the 08 is working, why change it but it would be nice to know what your pump is delivering so if you burn out the one you have you will have a beter idea on what to replace it with
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What is the temperature or the OWB coming out of the plate? You won't be able to get the indoor loop hotter than that. If it is dropping the then a bigger pump will help.
WillieG, just curious what reasons you have not to go with a bigger pump? The only thing I can think of is waste of power.
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waste of power mostly but i have also been told (no confirmation yet) that a non pressure sytem with air mixed in the water, can, with a too large of pump cause the pump too (as pressur builds from the pumps push on the line going out) to actually start to seperate the air from the water in the pump and cause cavitation. this may be BS but if i ever find out the truth i will pass it on. i could not desput the fact as i don't know and this came from a pump guy. he said in pressurized systems it wont happen as the pressure is about the same all through the system so pressure on each side of the pump is always within a few psi, but in our systems the pressure could be so great as there will be none on the suction side and depending on head pressure we could have a great amount in teh pump that could lead to cavitation? what would your thought s on this be rsi ? more opinions are good food for thought and if anyone has proof one way of the other is even better.
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Air mixed in the water is bad for any pump. It should eventually all make it's way to the boiler and out the top.
I have found that Grundfos pumps are a lot more tolerant of air than Taco. That is one of the reasons I would never sell a Taco.
I hope there isn't any truth to that because I will be running a B&G PL36 pump this winter. (supposed to use a lot less power but I will see ;D)
The flow curve is from 40GPM to 40FT of head.
I have about 120' of Kitec each way to the house and 3 heat exchangers on a manifold setup (4 when the dryer is running) so there shouldn't be that much head pressure.
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im not sure i belileve the whole idea but i guess it may be possable but i think you would have to have a lot of small bore pipe in the main lines...that is why he says to aim for a pump that will be in the middle of its pump curve. i always try to aim for the 10gpm area. there is somewhere between 10,000 and 11,000 btu per hour, per gpm at 170 to 180 degrees F. so if we maintain the area of 10 gpm we are delivering 100,000 btu per hour or better and that should heat any home and if i can do that in the middle of a pumps curve..the pump is running in it's most efficient zone and cost to run that pump in this zone is the best it can be
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Built first fire @9pm last night!!
P&M Opt 250. Got plenty of condensation from the fresh filling of 55 deg well water. Understandable, I suppose.
This morning finds it drying out, with none in the fire box, and just some stains left on the concrete. Deem that event Normal!
Can make one wonder, "Where's the leak"??? Next...
Set controller for 170 set and on at 160. 70 plate W-W HX in basement. Fed by Taco 008 pump. 50 some feet of the Logstor buried and 35 feet of 1" oxygen barrier pex inside. Got to 170 at OWB and only see 150 deg going into propane boiler.
***** The propane boiler still fires when a zone calls for heat??? So, for now, shut switch of on propane boiler.
All zones still work. Advice? Thanx in advance...
I cut in a tee off top of propane boiler and went to common return pipe from all zones. Installed clapper type check valve on this line couple inches off of tee. Common return line now goes to 70 plate WWHX. Return from HX to propane boiler with taco 007 pump at lowest point, after HX, running continously. 2nd floor tstats shut down, but still hit 70deg? Menopausel wife had rough nights sleep!! (gave her my side of bed near window!!)
***** I think maybe flowing through zones, even though check valve installed correctly???
High note....7 pcs of split got her up to temp and 2 pcs this morning to keep fire in box! Looks like its out when idling! No smoke! Did smoke a bit on initial firing, but smooth right out when started gassifying. Of course it was night when built fire, but didn't look bad at all.
Did add 1/2 pale of ashes from old wood stove in basement to floor of new OWB, as hot fire right on new floor don't seem too good.
Thanks for reading, look forward to thoughts/replys.
Bill G
The condensation is normal- all three of our 250's leaked like mad from the back door, and some from the front. Our's all started gasifing within an hour or so, mine a little sooner as I have experience with gassers. You are going to love that thing. One of the first things you'll notice is the different smell from the exhaust when it's gasifying- it smells way different that a conventional OWB. Sort of like comparing an older diesel to todays modern electronic ones. Mine's been burning a little more than a week now and I can't say enough good about it. I hear all the horror stories from others(different mfgs.) trying to keep theirs lit when the weather is a little warmer, but I've not had any issues yet. Keeping the boiler temperature up is also very important as you will figure out. We set ours all at 180* right out of the gate. Do yourself a favor and try not to pull too much heat out of the water, as they've found out return temps under 150* can do harm(condensation) to the combustion chamber.
Keep us updated. Congrats! I may be a little biased, but I think you own the best brand out there.
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im not sure i belileve the whole idea but i guess it may be possable but i think you would have to have a lot of small bore pipe in the main lines...that is why he says to aim for a pump that will be in the middle of its pump curve. i always try to aim for the 10gpm area. there is somewhere between 10,000 and 11,000 btu per hour, per gpm at 170 to 180 degrees F. so if we maintain the area of 10 gpm we are delivering 100,000 btu per hour or better and that should heat any home and if i can do that in the middle of a pumps curve..the pump is running in it's most efficient zone and cost to run that pump in this zone is the best it can be
Actually the temperature of the water has nothing to do with the BTU's it is the GPM and temperature drop that does. If you have 180 degree water and you pull it down to 170 you are getting the exact same btu's transferred as if it was 150 degrees and you pull it down to 140 degrees. Of course you would need larger heat exchangers to pull the same btu's out of the water at the lower temperature though.
You need to know the headloss of your system to get a pump in the middle and that is a lot more complicated than most people will be able to figure out. Using a larger 3 speed pump if the easiest way to do it. Just put on high and see what happens when going to a lower setting.
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Thanks Guys,
Ridge, I did plumb HX correct, Bot in top out from owb. Propane...top in bot out. I did the make sure whilst admiring my handy works today.
I'll be going up to 180 off and 170 on when I get my system straigtened out. If current loss of 20 deg is what I can expect, a buck60 deg in water will surely heat my house and hot water.
In betweenst putting tools away and clean up, I come up with this possible problem.....There is 5 007 Taco pumps 1 for each zone (4 heat and 1 Dom hot water) Mounted verticle to horizontal common return to propane boiler. I cut this Com Return away from propane boiler,use to go in bottom, and put it into a tee from top of propane boiler. Also put in flow check valve and FP ball valve. Then other side of common return now goes to top of HX. Out bottom with a 007 pump running cont. to bottom of propane boiler.
I think, (and that's painful for me) that with out flow checks between zone pumps and common return, that it must be back feeding through zones. And I need some kind of controlled valve in place of the check valve that I installed off of main top outlet of boiler. So when no zones are calling for heat, the water just circles through common return, HX, cont on pump, in bot of boiler and out top, up to the tee, but can't continue on up through house. Goes left back into common return.
Is a 3 way valve what I need, and how would it get hooked/wired to the five zone circulators? In my not so infinate wisdom, I figured the pressure of off discharge side of the zone pump would close the clapper/check valve I installed and go out the other side of common return through HX. Maybe just the installation of check valves under the zone pumps will cure my problem?
Sorry for the amateur sounding post, but I's trying! Appreciate the assistance!
Bill
Said I have 3 new replys as I was typing, so I'll post and read the 3 above this...
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Can you post a picture or diagram of your setup?
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Mr. RSI,
Picture/diagram worth a thousand words, Jr. won't be home til 10pm, and we'll work on that!
Bill
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hey guys,
Best we could do on pic's was to get them on the forum gallery. There under Bill G, furnace pic's. Hope it works...
Bill
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Wow- Awesome install. Very professional!
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Because it all didn't fit in the picture, I am trying to figure out a few things.
Where does the pipe going straight up out of the boiler go? Does the pump near the pex connection run all the time?
(http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?action-media;sa=media;in=107)
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Good Morning!
Ridge, Can only take credit for OWB hook-up, as "Real Pro" did the work on existing house. I'm just trying to keep with the manner in which he laid out that end! It does look clean, but has some bugs as you know!
Mr. RSI, The 1" copper coming straight up out of propane boiler branches out to the various zones in house. Pics ain't that great, but if you could see where I cut into it, added tee. Pumps are on return side of zones to that common horizontal 1" return. Use to go back into bottom of boiler. I put that into top, (tee, fp valve, check valve-clapper/swing type). Thinking when a zone calls for heat, the pump pressure from zone pump would close check valve so it can't back feed into discharge/top of boiler. Go out other side of return, up through HX and back through cont. on pump into bottom of boiler.
My tihinking now tells me the check valve doesn't close, because pressure is greater going into and out top of boiler. Need to find a type of valve that elctronically closes. A tee type valve that closes off that tee and lets water go up to zone. No call for heat and closes off so water just circles through HX. Is there such an animal made that can be wired so that when a zone calls it functions as described???
A switching type valve??
And, also will add in those flow check valves under the pumps today, so's water can't back-feed up through pumps.
Your thoughts, expertise greatly appreciated, all of you guys!
Bill G
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BillG-
When ever you guys talk about your installations I refer to this page to "see" what your talking about. Not sure if it will offer any ideas.....
http://www.centralboiler.com/otherExamples.html (http://www.centralboiler.com/otherExamples.html)
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Ridge, Closing in on what I need. I see that 3 way zone valve and think that is what I'm after! No experience w/such, but will shortly!
Thanks, will get after it.
Bill
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Guys,
Installed much better type check valve. Worked to get air out of this plumbing monstrausity(spelling, who cares!!). Gaining on it.
I think... Fire out all day in OWB and water dropped to 100 deg. Lesson learned today, is propane boiler runs forever trying to heat that 240 gal of water outside!! I'll quickly, well, kinda quick, remembered to shut off OWB circ pump and close valves before playing that game again! Figured I would fire up propane boiler so Sonny-boy would have hot water in the morning for his shower and to make sure all air out of system.
HX must work pretty good, as it quickly cooled the water from much smaller capacity propane boiler.
Tomorrow morning I'll build new fire in OWB. It's 1:10am here. Thinking of throwing this computer machine in the garbage, before I find any more worth while projects!!!!
Good Night All!!
Bill G
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At least you figured it out! Maybe some shutoff valves to the HTX would be in order when your not operating the OWB?
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Did you add the lower pump when you installed the OWB? Did it originally have the return go straight down where you teed into the upright pipe?
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Yes RSI, I added that horizontal pump to return,(Bot of prop boiler).
It is gravity feeding through all zones. So, the 3 way valve will be tomorrow's event. I spent a good bit of time looking on computer at various manufacturers and think maybe Erie will do. ( also suggested after call to P&M).
Did, of course shut valves to house, except DHW.
If I went with 24v, would the t-stat transformer be enough to operate such a valve? Electricity/electronics was never one of my strong suits.
All ears on this one. And not getting one w/sweat fittings, as fear of over-heating.
Found a lot of useful info on shop.solardirect.com.
Bill
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Was there a reason you didn't you just put the plate heat exchanger in series with the original loop?
If you don't want it in series, does the boiler have any more ports on it that aren't used? If there are I would have put a tee on the original return pipe and pumped direct into the boiler. Otherwise you could have just put a tee on both supply and return to the boiler but then you might still need a check valve.
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Mr. RSI,
My train of thought, before install, was if I put HX in series w/ existing plumbing, the propane boiler would just sit, waiting for a call for heat.
Since I wanted propane boiler for back-up, it would be on. It has no low limit and would fire when call for heat. So, I needed to keep it satisfied w/HW fr. HX. I certainly didn't want it circling through any of the zones, so tee'd off top of boiler, to common return pipe. Removed cap from opposite end of common return and that now goes up to HX. Out HX to cont-on pump into bot . of propane boiler. I put flow check off of tee, thinking, pos pressure from existing zone pumps would close it, so it can't return to tee, discharge off top of boiler.
This all works fine and dandy. Flow check works and heats house and hot water "like a big dog!!!". But, gravity or would you call it convective flow allows all zones to slowly heat. The Mrs. ain't into that!! There are flow checks in the returns of all zones, so it is not back-feeding. The hot water is moving in the proper direction. So, on order,is controllerand 3wy valve. All t-stats and dom-hx are of course tied to the existing propane boiler. It signals boiler when call for heat. I, turned down aquastat so it don't fire if water is above 140deg.
I'll tie into this common wire and it will tell 3-way to close off circulating route and go through zone calling. Common feed coming up off of top of propane boiler will be normally closed (no power). But the circulating route will be open, so the prop. boiler is allways satisfied. When t-stat calls, 3-way closes off circ. route and opens to common house feed. End switch from 3 way carries on to prop. boiler, so it will fire, if necessary.
I figured the HX would work in reverse, should the OWB go out, or we are away during winter. It does exactly that, but you would have to be "Rockafellar" to buy all necessary propane to keep 240 gal a H2o warm!!! Sooo....
Til' the controller and 3 way valve comes in, I'll run some fat off the beagles, and look forward to my hare hunting up-Maine!!!!
A BIG THANK_YOU!!!!! For bearing with the technically challenged!!!!!
I'll just close off the zone valves and use as is, if we go into the deep freeze!!
Bill G.
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The way you have it plumbed there is no way to keep it from heating the OWB when the gas boiler fires. You should have just put a tee on both supply and return the way it was originally setup. That way the pump you added would keep the gas boiler hot. If you had an extra port on the boiler that you could feed into it would work even better.
Doing it this way you could set up a controller on the pipe from the OWB that would turn the pump off at say 140° and then back on at 40°. That way it would keep it above freezing but not pull heat otherwise.
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RSI,
I do see your pont on aqua stat controller for OWB. Was thinking same thought. Another iron in the fire.
Bill