Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Portage & Main => Topic started by: skyking on October 25, 2011, 07:56:03 PM
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I have last years model of the 250 and just fired it up a few weeks ago. Does anybody else have moisture (creosote) leaking around the front wood loading door. I talked to Rory at P&M and he said it was normal for this time of year when the cycle times were short. Also, what do you have the primary and secondary air adjustments set to, Rory said to set them at 10 and 5. My stove has the turbulators installed. I love my Optimizer. :thumbup:Thanks.
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I have an ML30 and I have creosote leaking out the ash pan door. This is my first year and I am planning to call them.
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Skyking,
I got a bit dripping also, not enough to be overly concerned at this point, and can probably blame it on long idle times. That is changing rapidly here in PA!
Also curious if others have fooled with air adjusters, to find optimum setting. Mine smokes some during burn and I am going to try and get it cleaned up some. My wood is dry, so we'll play around to see whats best. Will try the 10-5 setting next.
Bill
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I have last years model of the 250 and just fired it up a few weeks ago. Does anybody else have moisture (creosote) leaking around the front wood loading door. I talked to Rory at P&M and he said it was normal for this time of year when the cycle times were short. Also, what do you have the primary and secondary air adjustments set to, Rory said to set them at 10 and 5. My stove has the turbulators installed. I love my Optimizer. :thumbup:Thanks.
I just spoke to Rory yesterday. In this milder weather they would like us to set our aquastats up to 175*-180*. Also, the differentials need to be lower than the factory setting till it gets colder(4*). Tighten that door up Mr. King! Almost feels like I know you?
Marty
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I have mine set at 175* with a 4* dif. The wood loading door is not leaking now but the bottom refractory door is, I tightened it up, will see what happens. It seems to be condensing on the loading door and running down inside and laying inside the refractory door.
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skyking-He wants us all to send him water samples. I'm going to Walley World tomorrow to buy some small bottles.
Bill G-Make sure your wood isn't too dry. Mine smokes a bit if it's too dry(12% or under).
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Marty,
My wood don't seem to be overly dry, but now that weather has really turned, it is working like a Champ! I figured I needed more burn times so set to 177off/169 on. That helped a lot.
Got 14 hrs on 6 pcs of split oak and found nice bed of coals and water at 176. Smoke issue non-existent now that we're at or under 30deg. Very Pleased with the P&M! Long idle times seem to cause minor troubles. I can see where a very small dif would be called for during mild weather.
I read your post on sending a water sample in for testing? That, I will try to get done, on Monday. Thank's for the heads-up on that!
Interested in how many turns open you have your draft set at? Mine at 15 and 4...and seems good. I think I read 15-3 for starting point, but mild weather not condusive for getting a good read.
Bill
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Mine is newer than yours. I think they must have used coarser threads in this years model. We've all opened our top about 4 full turns and the bottom about 2-2.5 A little more air in the primary burn chamber seems to burn off creosote better by making the flame in there "roar" a bit more. When did you purchase yours?
Marty
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Marty,
Appreciate the opportunity to compare notes!
Bought mine in May. Ser. #11010, which I assume may mean 10th one made in '11??
On air-flow settings: mine appears to have 1/4-20 threads. My booklet says 10-15 on top and 2-3 turns on bottom. I see where yours is set for only 4 on top? Mine does smoke a bit when blower is on and perhaps if I went in a bit, maybe it would clean up quicker?
Upon delivery, they told me to remove the upright fire brick from the bottom burn chamber and to re-arrange so most of burn chamber is flat, all covered with fire brick, of course. The salesman said it would gasify much quicker and better. I took his advice and did as instructed. It does sound and look much like a jet-engine w/afterburners going! Just the 2 rear most fire bricks are still up-right. My knuckles were skinned up plenty by then and reaching back that far wasn't fun, plus the rear 2 weren't budging anyhow! After re-arranging, I had 4 bricks left over. He also said ash accumulated much too quickly between the up-right firebricks. Curious as to what configuration of the firebricks are in yours, and if you were instructed to do same? Maybe just from salesman's personal experience, from burning his for a year?
Now that the zones in house call for heat, every so often, I noticed today that it was indeed firing more often. Wood consuption went up accordingly today. So, I set the controls to 180off/170on. From yesterdays 177/169.
Keep in touch....
Bill
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Bill,
My serial # is 11123. A few lines under that is the date of manufacture. Mine is hand-written and says June 27, 2011. I'm looking at my owners manual as we speak and mine says "the top valve(primary air) can be open 4 to5 turns, and the bottom(secondary air) is only 3 to 4 turns".
It's my understanding that they changed the brick configuration in the secondary burn chamber sometime before mine was built. Mine has no upright bricks. If yours has turbulators it is more than likely last year's model, or as you said very early this year's.
I would set your differential to 4 or 5 until it gets real cold. If you are on at 170* and off at 180*, yours must be set at 9. It seems to be an industry trend to cycle more often to keep the condensate burned off in the burn chambers.
I can't say enough good about this OWB. It's the 2'nd gasser I've owned, and definitely the better built of the two. I read about people who own other brands of OWB's who have daily maintenence(cleaning air holes, keeping ash away from air holes, using paper clips in the door to keep them going, etc.) to perform and it sure seems nice to be able to just throw wood in it and go about your daily business.
I'm ready for some winter. I want to give this old gal a workout!
Marty
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Marty,
Dark, cold and snowy outside, and I put er' to bed for the night! But, I'll turn the top in and back out 5 turns, just to see how it goes, in the AM.
Never saw a "Built date" on my tag, but could have missed it. Will get the bi-focals out!
If you could compare the thread size on air-flow??, mine is most definately 1/4-20 UNC, the most common size of 1/4 threads.
Also, yes I have the curly-Q turbulators. Wonder if they help or just collect more dust? I did give thorough cleaning after 2 weeks of burning, end of Sept and 1st week of Oct. (I've been back burning for 1 week now.) They did have a bit of dust and slightly "greasy" feel when cleaning. Slight film of creosote I would think. Did clean up the whole boiler easy enough. Only difficulty was running bore brush in 2" vertical pipes. Quite the bend on "cleaning rod". I was 99.9% sure it was dead out and used my old shop vac on it also. Of course left outside, after emptying, cause not to thrilled with burning garage down!! Compressed air tank seems like could make a mess, but probably would do well.
Thanks for the info, Marty, glad to hear your thoughts/experiences.
Bill
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Do you have 2 cleaning doors on the back of your stove or 1? Mine has only 1. I've heard they went away from the turbulators and just made the horizontal tubes the next size larger.
I'll look at my thread size tomorrow. I'm wondering if they made the air adjusting plates and holes larger on the newer models? Maybe thats why we don't run ours quite as many turns out as you do.
Every day is a learning experience when it comes to these gasifiers, isn't it?
Marty
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Marty,
2 clean out doors. And 1.5" plus 2" bore brushes. Horizontal being 1.5 and vert. -2".
Never took cover off of air supply to see what size the dampers are?? Maybe they made a change there??
Yes, learning as the burning season progresses...but will be very happy to not recieve those propane bills!!! I sure hope to squeeze every year out of this boiler as possible, thus "all ears" on maint., and operation. As stated, glad to compare notes!!
Bill
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Had a issue with my Optimizer today. I noticed lately that it did not seem be gasifying as hotly and loudly as it did initially and that I was getting a lot of condensation out the refractory door. Today it got worse, so started checking what could be the problem. Checked the wood moisture, ash and elm, it was anywhere from 15 to 22%, so didn't think that to be the issue. I thought might have a blockage in the injection fan enclosure, it was clear. I had thoroughly cleaned the heat exchangers on Friday, so knew them to be clean (only a light coating of dust and fly ash). I finally found the problem, some of the air holes for the firebox draft along the top of the firebox were plugged and most importantly the bottom one in the back. I never really had paid attention to their location, I know where they are now! They are located on each side and bottom of the injection tube that is at the top of the firebox, approx. 5/8 to 3/4 inches in diameter. There is also one at the bottom of the tube in the back of the firebox. I think I found out what the hook on the end of the ash poker that came with the stoves are used for, to clean out the draft holes! I now know to check and make sure they are open. I think the one in the back and bottom of the square tube got plugged by pushing coals and wood against them when I loaded the stove.
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Talked to Rory, at P&M, today. He advised to remove all of the turbulators, turn firebrick in refractory on side (as Bill has suggested) and to run at 180* with 10* dif (or on at 180 and off at 170). They are changing recommendations as they gain experience and receive feedback from guys like us. He does want a water sample from each of us (as Marty stated earlier in his post). Send it to P&M in care of him.
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Had a issue with my Optimizer today. I noticed lately that it did not seem be gasifying as hotly and loudly as it did initially and that I was getting a lot of condensation out the refractory door. Today it got worse, so started checking what could be the problem. Checked the wood moisture, ash and elm, it was anywhere from 15 to 22%, so didn't think that to be the issue. I thought might have a blockage in the injection fan enclosure, it was clear. I had thoroughly cleaned the heat exchangers on Friday, so knew them to be clean (only a light coating of dust and fly ash). I finally found the problem, some of the air holes for the firebox draft along the top of the firebox were plugged and most importantly the bottom one in the back. I never really had paid attention to their location, I know where they are now! They are located on each side and bottom of the injection tube that is at the top of the firebox, approx. 5/8 to 3/4 inches in diameter. There is also one at the bottom of the tube in the back of the firebox. I think I found out what the hook on the end of the ash poker that came with the stoves are used for, to clean out the draft holes! I now know to check and make sure they are open. I think the one in the back and bottom of the square tube got plugged by pushing coals and wood against them when I loaded the stove.
I know your stove is running ,bit I would love to see a few pics of this air draft pipe you are referring to.
My stove I built has an air tube to feed the air to the front of my burn chamber.I place 3/4" holes in mine and Noticed I was getting the same problems as you ran into while mine was running last winter.I pulled the tube out welded the holes on the top side shut as creosote was getting in the tube and slowly plugging it up.I then opened up the bottom holes ,and also opened up an 2x3" hole in the side of the tube.Now my firebox is pressurizing and burning way more efficiently.Sounds like you are running into the exact same problem I did.Might find the small holes and the tube may plug up with creosote as the burning season goes on.Can the tube be pulled out and cleaned?Keep us updated on this issue. :thumbup:
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Jackel, will try to get some pictures inside my stove when the fire is low. I tried to post some pictures of my setup, but they said file was too big. How do you get it small enough to send? By the way stove seems to be working much better with 10* spread and removing the turbulators. No condensation tonight at all.
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I to had troubles getting my pics resized to post in the forum like I have always done in the past.So I ened up putting them on the wifes photobucket and then using it to post them here.Not sure whats up with it.
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For resizing pictures try this http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/image-resizer-powertoy-clone-for-windows-7vista/ (http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/image-resizer-powertoy-clone-for-windows-7vista/)
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Haven't posted a report in awhile, so here we go....Still get a bit of creosote, which I do my best to scrape down daily. Yes, my wood is seasoned good and is dry. Got me a moisture meter as suggested, and it shows 14-18% on my wood when re-split. 9-12% on exposed ends. Mix of oaks, ash, hickory, black birch, rock maple. All good stuff!
Tried a 10 deg diff setting and can't keep a fire going with such a long down time. Getting by fine with 174 on/off 180. 6 diff.
We built house in 2000 and it is well insulated. 2800 sq ft.
Very well pleased thus far and glad the propane company is no longer on our "monthly hand-out list".
Has anyone heard from P&M on your water samples that you sent in?
Sure do enjoy the nice steady heat throughout our whole house.
Bill
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Ive been burning my 250 about 2 months now and I love it. After paying $3.69 for oil the day my stove arrived it hasnt been on even once. This stove does take a little getting used but I think i'm getting the hang of it. I wish I had found this post before starting my stove since it would have answered some of my questions the owners manual didnt cover. I'll share some of my experiences and observations and hopefully pass on some of my hard learned lessons.
When I first started the stove and the water was cold the top tubes acted like a condenser and water was pouring out the upper cleanout doors. This stopped once the water got to operating temperature.
I was stirring the ashes around before putting more wood but several times I blocked the bottom hole with ashes and the stove would not burn and actually cooled down. It does all kind of crazy things when that happens. Even if I stir the ashes, I make sure the hole is open before I put wood over it.
I have noticed a buildup of creosote inside the rear airbox and fan. This did cause a problem and jam the rod that opens the air doors. I cleaned the slider and loosened the bolt and it works ok now.
I raised my cutoff temp. to 185 with a 10 degree diff and it seems to work a little better with my heat exchanger. I think I will try a lower diff setting during the milder weather periods.
I did have creosote pooling inside the lower cleanout door during milder weather. I am guessing this is from long idle periods since it has decreased during the colder weather.
The door gasket was leaking on the lower left corner because the gasket wasnt fitting properly and didnt seal with the stove opening. I ended up getting some door seal and filling the outer edge of the channel and sealing the gap.
I wish I had bought this stove earlier instead of feeding an old 30 year old boiler that used a cord of wood every 2 weeks.
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Aint it great to be free from the oil man!
Congrats and welcome to the site!
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gdeloz,
Welcome aboard friend!
My first year too w/opt 250. You can be sure it is quite the learning curve to get the hang of smooth operation! But, it sure does keep the house comfortable. My biggest concern to date was a possible water leak which Brian (P&M) helped me to straighten out. Turns out the guage does not read correct and I was overfilling. Not really overfilling as there may be, (most likely) a bad weld on top where the guage pipe is welded into top of boiler. Will look into after burning season. In mean time, just check level every now and then with dip stick.
Martyinmi, was most helpful in finding this problem.
I found it rather difficult to keep a fire when outside temps are warm. It runs to perfection when house or DHW calls for heat on a normal basis. My warm weather settings were 180 off 174 on. Now, as per Marty's suggestion 185off 179on and she keeps a fire fine.
Do get a slight bit of smoke, nothing to be overly concerned with, during burn cycle. Tried all kinds of adjustments on air and still a slight bit of smoke. Certainly not enough to offend anyone.
All in all, very well pleased, and learning as we go!
Bill G
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Hi Guys
I don't have a P&M gassifier, but I do have a Natures Comfort Gassifier and I have found that the stove runs much better set at 190 with a 5deg diff. (thats on at 185 off at 190). It actually burns less wood and far less creosote issues. Give it a try, it may help your stove run better. :thumbup:
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Welcome to the site gdeloz and congrats on your investment.
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I know one of the big selling points of these owbs is you only have to load them once a day, but i'm finding i get less creosote and better burn times if I put a few pieces in several times a day. I'm guessing in theory the stove does not have to heat up a large amount of wood at one time and get rid of the excess moisture before it can burn hot. I still fill it up at night but several times a day I throw a few pieces in so it does not take so much at night.
I have about 4-5 inches of ashes/coals in the main burn chamber. do you take some of these ashes out or let them cycle through the nozzle?
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I usually just let them cycle through. P & M recommends a thorough periodically. We have been in Calif. the last two weeks, so plan to do a complete cleaning tomorrow when we get home. I have been burning it continuously since the first of October.
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How are all you guys doing with the OP 250 this year, new too the site but i have had mine for a couple years now. Still playing with it to get "optimal" burns. Martini, i read you were going to burn some slab wood, is that hardwood or softwood? How does the boiler like those? I have burnt a few loads, seems to work alright if you are home during the day, got some standing dead pine i,m going to through in this weekend during the day.
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watch that pine if you open the door between burns, that stuff creates gas like nitro...explosive stuff!
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Coolidge, are you or have you been having trouble with condensation dripping out the doors or out the bottom of the fan box? I guess they are coming out with a fix for the dripping fan box which will extend the shaft on the damper motor and adding a closer to the air inlet tube to the refractory. They are also coming out with a stainless cover to go over the firebrick on the refractory door because of the trouble with the fire brick breaking. Talked to Brian at P&M today about it. Over all I am happy with the unit, seems to gassify pretty well.
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I only get the condensation when first starting in the fall, then it goes away. I did talk to Brian at a show he was at and he wants our input too make these boilers better.i like the new design in the back firetube doors. I have the older style and its a pain too clean the 2" tubes. What are you guys running for stack temps? I took all my turbulators out. Running around 375. Lost a blower last year,dealer brought it too my house that night, have a spare now. Been trying to tighten up the loading door and the reaction chamber door, no luck at stopping the smoke. Speaking of smoke, does anyone have there boilers in a shed? I built one around mine and the thing fills the shed full of smoke. Going to build a hood too pipe it out.
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I have mine inside a lean to on the side of my shop. it to fills with smoke i just open the doors and the wind takes care of the rest.
so far so good nice and warm in the house toasty in the shop. very impressed less work than running two wood stoves, and my shop is always warm, no condensation on my stuff. and i can`t belive there is hardly any smoke coming out the chimney, my nieghbours didn`t even know i put an OWB until i told them last week. and been running since october.
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Anyone have there OP 250 hooked in with storage? I have mine hooked up too 330 extra gallons. debating on if its a good idea or not. House is warm, guess its good. What are you guys running your diff at, i just changed mine too 15, trying to get a better coal bed.
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Wow, almost 600 gallons of storage. That's huge! Are you having trouble with it gasifing when your system calls for heat? You should not see anything but steam from your exhaust after the first 30 seconds or so. I've found that if I go more than 3-3 1/2 hours without a cycle the refractory cools down enough to where it won't gasify immediately. Sometimes it would take 20-30 minutes to achieve full gasification again. When it smoked, I ended up with creosote deposits in the heat exchange tubes. If I were you, I think I'd make sure that you are cycling at least once every 1-2 hours. I set my differential at 4 or 5 in this moderate weather, and when(or if) it ever gets cold, I'll bump it up to 9 or 10. I'll be surprised if you can maintain a fire with a 15* differential and all that extra storage. I'd make sure your boiler temperature doesn't go below 140* very often or you will risk early boiler failure. I'm currently running my temps at 190* on and 195* off and it seems to really like it there.
The only time I'd consider adding extra storage would be if it were mass storage- like 1000 gallons or more-where you might get away with building a fire once every day or every other day, and even then, I wouldn't use an open system like the 250 has. That's where the European systems really shine.
There are three of us running 250's in this area, and we've found that if we use gravel shovels and take 3 or 4 scoops of fine ash from the bottom every 2-3 days, we have zero issues with our coal bed depth. It takes care of itself.
Welcome to this site- and the P&M family.
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Marty,
Played around with the dif thinking longer/cleaner burn times. Went to 185/176. Worked great provided ambient temps stayed under 40 deg. Otherwise, out fire. Screwy weather here in PA! Suppose to get cold again shortly. Probably going to go back to 185/180.
Had to add couple gal a water after 10 days, but you know all about that. Repair to come at spring shutdown.
I guess if we were trying to heat a very large area, extra water storage would be a good thing. But, would only slow down burn times and cause problems for the average size house.
Plenty of rain here today....no need to shovel!!
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Im looking to buy an ML30 p&m.. anyone have one? If so can I get some feedback !
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There is no problem with it cycling, usually at least twice an hour and of course more when it gets colder. The boiler water cant go below 140 because of the way its set up. The boiler pumps to the storage tank and if nothing is needing heat the water is sent back to the boiler from the tank. Its a messed up setup. I dont think the guy that hooked it up had done storage before. Also the tank was plumbed in before the 250 was purchased, had an old MB55 hooked to it. We use more hot water hear than the rest of the town so the water heater is more storage and that calls for heat ALOT.
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Coolidge,
I should clarify "burn time", I mean the furnace would sit idle for a very long time, and fire would most likely go out.
That has been/ was my early on problem with my furnace, but find if I tighten up the differential during moderate temps she keeps a fire.
What exactly are you heating that requires that much hot water storage?
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Bill,
I too had the problem of the fire going out but didnt have too worry in the shoulder season because of the storage. I just heat the house (3200 sq ft thats basement also) and hot water with the boiler, i had the boiler hooked in because i had it already in place. Just wondering if it would be more beneficial to unhook the storage.
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coolige,
If you're cycling every half hour, you do not have an issue, other than going through a lot of wood. If you lower your temperature 15* in a half hour, I think the BTU math would be: 250+330=580Gals. 580x8.3 lbs=4814 lbs. You will raise the temperature of that 4814 lbs up twice in one hour,so: 4814x2=9628. 9628x15*=144420 BTU's/hour. 144420x24 hours=3,466,080/day. Well seasoned wood @ 20% moisture will have about 6200 BTU's/lb. available after the moisture is boiled out, and if your boiler is 80% efficient, you'll end up with about 5000 available BTU's/pound. So: 3,466,080divided by 5000=693 lbs./wood/day. That's about a full cord/week of good hardwood. I suspect your storage system is not functioning properly, or even at all. Either that or my math is waaaay off- and sometimes that tends to be the rule, and not the exception! Willie and RSI are much better at figuring thermal equations than I am. They will do some figuring and put me in my place. I need to go and pick up my son now,so I'll check in later.
Marty
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I agree something does not sound right at all to be cycling through 600+ plus gallons of storage twice an hour. I question if the boiler would even be able to reheat that much in 30 minutes.
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it is said here in ontario canada the average home uses about 100,000,000 btu per heating season i would guess you will be 3 to 4 times that...whew! you must be heating a big area or you are losing a lot of heat elsewhere?
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willie,
Is my math close? Took a hvac class at the local community college almost 31 years ago, but I remember very little of what I learned.
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willie,
Is my math close? Took a hvac class at the local community college almost 31 years ago, but I remember very little of what I learned.
seems right to me but didn't i also read that ridge (i think it is him) that was timing his burns and was only at around 7 or 8 a day (in this mild weahter) so twice and hor seems like a lot of burns (depending on what is being heated)
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Coolidge,
My house is 2800 sqft excluding basement. The basement does stay very comfortable w/just the heat exchanger and plumbing. I am sure this brings me a bit past 3200 sqft. Even during the past cold snap, my owb blower came on maybe once every 2 hrs. Easily got by on the normal 2 loadings per day. Loaded to a it over half way with seasoned oak. I guess something don't sound quite right w/your set-up.
You must be going through the 1/2 a forest this year?? Do you have valves/piping to isolate that giant storage unit and just work off the OWB? I can only guess more of your usable heat is going directly to keeping storage up, than is being used in the house?
Interesting to hear the final verdict on your situation. Have heard and had very minor toubles along the new OWB journey, but have never heard anyone of us burning an P&M furnace ever say they didn't generate enough heat! Keep in touch....
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I really only count how many times I get a email a day telling me the Dragon has started a Burn Cycle: This is January so far.
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Ok I,m not very good at saying what i want too say. Let me try again. The boiler puts out enough heat too heat everything i need too. The boiler water is piped into storage. If any zones call for heat the zones pull from storage and not boiler. If no zones calling for heat the incoming water from boiler is going to storage and storage water is going back to boiler, to keep the water moving. The boiler fires (after watching) 4 to 5 times an hour to keep storage hot with a 10 degree diff. I am not consuming alot of wood, 3 to 4 good sized splits 8" throughout the day @ the temps weve been having. Load the firebox at night. i havent burnt 2.5 cord yet this year. I talked with Brian a little today he said there wasnt a problem with more storage as long as the refractory brick doesnt cool down much, firing at 4 to 5 times an hour doesnt seem like it would cool too much. plus this summer i am going to use it with storage for DHH, so i am thinking i will only need to fire once a week, will keep you posted on that.
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Wow i guess i do need that much heat, boiler was shut down for about 2 hours today cleaning and so on. Looked at the temp on the Johnson control reading 160, looked at temp on the storage going back to boiler 160. Something is wrong somewhere, will have to get a HVAC tech in to have a look.
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coolidge,
I re-read my last post to you and I feel like I may have came across like a know-it-all. That was not my intention. Sometimes when I say things with good intent, they come out exactly the opposite of what I meant(hey,that rhymes). If I offended you, I'm sorry.
Marty
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No offense taken Marty, looking for you and everyone else who has one of theses boilers for feedback, what works what doesnt. I listen too what you guys have too say and try to "put it into play". Right now i am trying to figure out why i am losing 20 degrees in a couple hours WITH 600 GAL STORAGE. House is 120 years old, insulated with 4"(R28) closed cell foam exterior walls except north wall R 35 foam. Roof has R42 Foam. I believe it is either the storage as suggested or my underground line that are also foamed. No clue boiler is running good today after rearranging refractory brick and cleaning airbox. Thank for all your help
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Hey Coolidge,
When I let 'er fire burn down for cleaning, it is not uncommon for the boiler temp to drop rather rapidly. I just chalk that up to being all ports wide open for cleaning, and pump still running with perhaps a zone or 2 in the house calling for heat? So 20 deg drop over 2 hrs is really better than expected.
2.5 cords used thus far is probably right around where I'm at. And, from the graph Ridge showed for burn times per day, I would say I'm fairly close....maybe a tad greater. But we're surely comparing 2 different animals.
I still suggest isolating your storage tank, and checking to see how different your owb operates?? No expert here, but it does seem like you are working too hard just to maintain temp on just water storage. It would stand to reason if your owb kicked on twice an hr., and only once every 2 hrs or so for me...then you would have to be using more wood. My furnace set at 185/176.
Then again, with 600 gal of 185 deg water on hand, and mine with just 240, it would also seem mine should be the one needing to fire more often? Perplexing dilemma for my simple mind!
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Well, last night was the coldest this year and tonight is going to be colder. Filled the box around 8 last night and to my SURPRISE at 9 this morning i had roughly two more hours of burning that wood could have done. Threw in three good sized splits of pine and 1 piece of rock maple and i went from 9 am too 4 pm. these things run alot better when its cold out. Now if i could get the tubing to transfer all that heat too the house i should be in good shape.
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coolige,
If you are losing 20* in two hours, that's actually not that bad. 600 gallons times 8.33 pounds per gallon comes to about 5000 pounds. 5000 pounds times 20 degrees is 100,000 btu's. 100,000 btu's divided by 2 hours equals 50,000 btu's/hour. 50,000 btu's times 24 hours/day comes to 1,200,000 btu's/day. At 80% efficiency, you'll get about 5,000 btu's out of a pound of wood transferred to water. 1,200,000 btu's divided by 5,000 btu's comes up to 240 pounds of wood/day. If i remember, seasoned oak(@ 20%mc) is close to 4000 lbs. 4,000 pounds divided by 240 pounds/day comes out to about 17 days/cord. I don't know how many sq.ft. your home is, but if it's something over 3000 sq.ft., you're not doing that bad if you are in an area where the climate is colder.
Bill brought up a great point that hit home with me this morning when I cleaned mine out. Mine was opened up front and rear, pump unplugged, almost nothing in primary burn chamber for about 15-20 minutes, and with a 19* ambient temperature, I lost 3 degrees, which really surprised me. If 5 of your 20 degrees were lost to the atmosphere in the while you were cleaning(in other words-your home only took the temperature down 15*), that would cut your wood consumption down to 180 lbs./day-which means the same cord would last over 22 days. I would suspect you could have feasibly lost even more than 5* in 2 hours to the atmosphere, which would lower your daily consumption even more.
I'm wondering if the reason yours is cycling more frequently than mine and Bill's might be because your mechanical aqua stat is set too low. Mine is set at 205* and I've never had an issue. For some reason, from the factory it was set at 180*, so I bumped it up before I ever built a fire.
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Had a dealer for the PM here today too look over the setup, in a one week timeframe i have 1" to 1.5" of ash built up above the vertical tubes and at least an inch in the final pass.We also checked stack temp and was over 400. he suggested a good cleaning AGAIN and to fabricate some firebrick to make my nozzle smaller. Aquastat set at 195off and on at 180 top air inlet at 5 out bottom 1 out. Will see what happens tommorrow when i make the nozzle smaller. Whats up with this weather anyway 30s and 40s the rest of the week.
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coolige, I pm'd you
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Do you guys know of a good place to buy the wire brushes for the heat exchanger tubes? I know dealer but if i can get a good quality one for less. Has anyone seen the chip boiler in action yet? Besides on the PM website. Might have a chance too see on in the next month or so.
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Here are a couple more pictures of my P&M Opt. 250. I added a couple of lights to the top of the unit: green - draft fan is running; red - fan switch is in the off position; both green and red lights on - fan switch is off and control is calling for draft fan to run. There are also a couple of pictures inside of the firebox. Jackel, I know you wanted a couple of pictures of the inside, sorry it took so long. You can see the draft tube running up the back and across the top, there are 3 - 5/8" holes in the bottom of the top tube, 1 in the bottom at the back, and about 6 on each side of the top tube.
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/skyking8416/PMOpt250001.jpg (http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/skyking8416/PMOpt250001.jpg)
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/skyking8416/PMOpt250002.jpg (http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/skyking8416/PMOpt250002.jpg)
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/skyking8416/PMOpt250003.jpg (http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh277/skyking8416/PMOpt250003.jpg)
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I am kinda of upset with the P&M "parts" dept, i ordered a couple wire brushes OVER TWO WEEKS ago and have yet too recieve them. "keep em clean" hard too do when the cleaning supplies take forever too get here. Off course you cant find them anywhere around you. Will probally take a whole day to clean out those horizontal tubes. On a good note, its finally a little cooler so the boiler can run like it likes, not much for effiecency.
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Ordered one of the expanding brushes from this company today, will see how it works when i get done modifying it. www.tcwilson.com (http://www.tcwilson.com)
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Let us know how it works, looks like it might just be the real deal.
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Expanding wire brush arrived today, 2 days after ordering it, brushes fromP&M not here yet, going on three weeks. Anyway this thing will eat any deposits in those tubes, the faster it spins the better it works, definately use a electric drill, three batteries with the cordless and i only had three tubes done. I would go up to 1 5/8 brush if were to order one, they do come with replacement brushes $50 bucks i think he said, head unit with brushes are $115.00. It might be worth its weight in gold though.
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Hi I have had my 250 running non stop for almost 2 years. Looks like this is a good site for tips and tricks.
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Hi Karl,
Mis-placed your ph # back around last April. My wife and I visited with you to look at your 250. We did get one and installed it. Been burning it since mid Sept, minus 2 wks in Oct when out of town.
We are 20 min N, across the river, that should jog your memory?
Any ways, definately thrilled with no more propane bill. But, if I had to do it over, I think a ML36 conventional job would have been more to my liking. Not too fond of the cleaning regiment needed to keep it burning clean. Nozzle in floor quite cracked/spaulded, creosote in airbox (even with my well seasoned PA hardwoods). I did drill small hole in bottom left corner of airbox, as you did, for drainage.
Been awhile, please pm me your phone # and so we can compare notes on these things.
Bill
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Hi Bill I glad to hear you got your boiler. Try shutting off the air to the nozzle by turning adjuster at air box all the way in. This will stop any condensation forming in the air box. I know it doesnt sound right but it works and it will still gassify. There will be some spauling at first around the nozzle but then it seem to stop. I am very careful around it and I only take out the ash 2-3 times a year in the fire box. To clean the tubes I use the handle that came with the boiler for the larger tubes and made a rod out of 1/4 in steel bar for the upper tube brush, its stiffer and works good. I also use compressed air and a long air gun to help clean the tubes.I clean it every 2 weeks ,its not fun but I got it down to less than 1/2 an hour
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Karl,
Good to hear from you again! I'll give you a call soon here, in the evenings, to compare notes.
Bill
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Anyone have any problems with " puffing" I had this issue last night. Wood is VERY dry Had heat this morning so i dont know what i did if anything.
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The only time mine has done the huffing or puffing thing (back through the air manifold) was when the holes were plugged in air tube at the top of the firebox. Only happened once and then I figured out what was causing it and kept those holes clear and it never happened again.
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Mine used to do the puffing thing, but only when my wood was too dry(under 15%), or when the air intake disc was at it's factory setting. We all took our inlet restrictors(discs) off, turned them around so the welded nut is out, spun them back in all the way, then backed them back out 3 1/2 full turns. We've not noticed any puffing since we made that modification. If we run into some wet wood, we simply back the disc out another half turn. It seems to really cut down on wood consumption also.
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Thanks guys, Air tube was free and clear, i am going to chalk it up to too dry of wood, i loaded with some year old stuff last night and it ran fine.
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Based on some experiences I've had recently, you might try restricting your primary air flow down a bit if you burn more DRY wood. I had the same thing happening.
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OK I had the extra 330 gallons of storage seperated from the system, now it is just the 240 gallons the 250 holds. Just today at 64 degrees the boiler used half a firebox load of wood (hardwood) JUST TOO HEAT HOTWATER No other heat on in the house, a couple showers this morning. I do have temp gauges at house side of underground lines and there is no heat loss, 75 foot run. Air settings are 5 out on top 1.5 bottom, gasing fine Pulling what little hair i have left out, i would think with the outdoor temps half a firebox should last a couple days.
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coolidge,
Go to the Forestry Forum and search "Calculations for BTU Loss in OWF Water Line". It will paint a clear picture of where your heat is going. Try an experiment. Put a similar load in your boiler that you had today, but shut your circulating pump off for the same time frame you had it going today. You'll see that you wont go through any wood to speak of. In fact, your boiler may only cycle once or twice all day long. The Earth is stealing an awful lot of BTU's from us by means of our underground insulated pipe.
I am going to put something in my system that turns my pump on only when there is a demand from my furnace or the water heater. I believe I'll use 10-20% less wood based on some of the wood usage testing I've done, as well as factoring in the BTU losses Dean has come up with in his study. I need to quit procrastinating and just get it done.
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I was thinking it was the lines and i actually dug a small portion of them up this summer, i didnt skimp when i sprayed the lines with a minimum R 35 closed cell foam. I do like the idea of shutting the pump of when not calling for heat. I will check out the article later tonight.
Thanks
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I havent tried shutting the circulator of yet, but i did try another experiment with roughly the same load. I filled the firebox(half full) with some pine and some softwood slabs i had. There is quite a difference, the softwood load will last a day and a half. So maybe my moisture meter is a piece of sh** and my hardwood is not dry enough, been cut split stacked for a year and a half.
Softwood it is then.