Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Shaver Furnace => Topic started by: lugnut on December 18, 2011, 07:54:09 PM
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Okay, new topic from this "still a newbie"...Member Church and I had quite a nice conversation Friday evening and Church came up with an idea and a query. Seems that we Shaver owners have this large blower motor of 75 cfm on the rear of our furnaces...yet we're trying to stifle the air that is rushing in to the rear of the furnace and under the actual wood/coal. Why on earth are we fighting the system? Larger motor with a flippy flap that doesn't flip, but does flop. :bash:
My neighbor has a Central boiler (choke) and Dan tells me that his OWB does NOT have an electric blower...the draft is "natural"...not electrically driven.
So, in our discussion of this issue with Church, brings me to this question...why can't we Shaver owners disconnect the wiring to the blower, yet NOT the solenoid and allow the "natural" draft to work in conjunction with the solenoid?
Any issues that we might be missing here?
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On another note, I tried choking down my existing blower with a strip of aluminum foil tape, but it seems that for some reason the solenoid never shut down and allowed the furnace to "idle"...any thoughts here as well? I'm STILL trying to dial that darn solenoid in. I have an idea and will attempt it sometime this week, but not until I purchase another solenoid....just in case I burn this one out.
I will step out of the room now and check the bulletin board later for any responses.
Lugnut
aka: Jerry
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I do not have the answer to your question. But I do have a question of my own. Have you tried kicking the darn thing yet?
I am looking forward to coming up and looking at it when you git r done.
: )
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Jerry- You are a hoot! I look forward to reading your daily adventures. In a way, I hope you never get that thing totally figured out. Your posts are so entertaining.
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The classic CB does not have a fan, that's true. But we don't have grates either.
My burn times average 15 minutes without a fan. Thats to raise my water temp from 175* to 185*. How long are your burns with a fan?
I guess a lot would have to do with your heat load too. Today we barely got to freezing outside. My unit went into a burn 9x in 22 hours. I added ten pieces of wood all day. The house is a balmy 74*.
I'm just trying to give you some numbers to work with before disconnecting your fan. I've never seen a shaver.
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Jerry- You are a hoot! I look forward to reading your daily adventures. In a way, I hope you never get that thing totally figured out. Your posts are so entertaining.
+1
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Jerry- You are a hoot! I look forward to reading your daily adventures. In a way, I hope you never get that thing totally figured out. Your posts are so entertaining.
Well Marty, I'm happy that I can provide some entertainment on this website. Some of youse guys are really quite stiff. ;) I think even if I do ever figure this darn thing out, there will always be something that I have missed.
Why is it that I feel that I'm the only person having this much trouble with the "auto damper" or "positive closure" on the rear of this shaver? I just know that I'm being singled out for a reason. :-\
Jerry
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The classic CB does not have a fan, that's true. But we don't have grates either.
My burn times average 15 minutes without a fan. Thats to raise my water temp from 175* to 185*. How long are your burns with a fan?
I guess a lot would have to do with your heat load too. Today we barely got to freezing outside. My unit went into a burn 9x in 22 hours. I added ten pieces of wood all day. The house is a balmy 74*.
I'm just trying to give you some numbers to work with before disconnecting your fan. I've never seen a shaver.
Well golly gee whiz, I'm not certain how I would even go about measuring my burn times. Today, we made it up to at least 39*, so i don't think I was burning that much wood, but with that darn damper on the rear...I dunno. Going to go outside in a bit and check the box for wood. Hopefully there is wood still in the box burning..thermostat in the house is set at 73* and it's nice. Guess I really do have to get that Ranco connected and soon.
You've never seen a Shaver??? Oh my gosh, well then you haven't lived!!!!!! I will give you their website...no wait, I don't have to do that. Just take the mouse and do the clicky thing on their website on this forum site. It "should" take you directly to their wonderful website. If you get lost, let me know...I have the site memorized. Where's my favorite smiley... :bash:
Lugnut
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I do not have the answer to your question. But I do have a question of my own. Have you tried kicking the darn thing yet?
I am looking forward to coming up and looking at it when you git r done.
: )
tinner...guess that means you'll be coming up in the "warmer" months eh? LOL!!
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Oh, I've been to the website. Just never saw one up close!
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I probably missed some of your posts but were you having a problem with too much air? The standard fan than most brands use is 135 CFM. Is it possible to put a plate between the flanges where the fan mounts? This is a much better way of regulating the air but it should work to adjust how far it opens the flap too.
Central boilers do have a solenoid to open the air door. They are designed for natural draft. Just opening the air without running the blower on a stove designed for a blower doesn't usually work. They don't let in enough air and will creosote up and probably never get up to temperature.
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Lugnut, go to the nearest home improvement store and buy a light dimmer switch (the kind that you push on that have a dial you turn). $5 or so. They have 1 wire in and 1 wire out. Put this between your the wire that is powering your fan and it is infinetely adjustable. You can even shut it completely off. It is super simple. No more trying to choke it off with tape or anything or trying to adjust how far open the flap is. Just complete airflow control at the touch of a dial.
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Lugnut, go to the nearest home improvement store and buy a light dimmer switch (the kind that you push on that have a dial you turn). $5 or so. They have 1 wire in and 1 wire out. Put this between your the wire that is powering your fan and it is infinetely adjustable. You can even shut it completely off. It is super simple. No more trying to choke it off with tape or anything or trying to adjust how far open the flap is. Just complete airflow control at the touch of a dial.
A light dimmer will ruin the fan. Buy a speed control for a ceiling fan if you do this. They look the same but do not do the same thing.
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I'm a bit confused as to why you would want to reduce the output of the blower.
The forced air from the fan ensures quick recovery time, and better complete burning and less creosote, not sure why anyone would disconnect. Many users complained about the 50 CFM fan and then Shaver went to the 75 CFM. I have the 75 CFm and the solonoid flapper on my 250.
To get the burn times, (12 hours for mine) the stove need to burn hot, maintain water temps and then idle to conserve wood, till you need again to get water temps up. I don't think the reducing the flow or shutting off your fan will give you enough make up air when you need it.
I'm just going to make a guess here about other OWBs that use natural drafts have a different fire box configuration and the size of the draft opening is probably larger.
Good luck with it. Let us know how it goes.
Ed
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For natural draft you will need to have a taller insulated chimney. I haven't been following your posts so I don't know what all problems you are having, but if it helps at all there was a thread about 50 pages long over on arboristsite.com named "shaver improvement thread". Seems like a lot of guys had trouble regulating the water temp and blower/damper issues. Most seemed happy after some home made mods, good luck!
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For thoes who might have missed it
Here is my blower mod. It works great and cost less than $20
http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/110817.htm (http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/110817.htm)
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That's a sweet mod and should help some folks around here since it included pics (I could see!)
Thanks for sharing!
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I didn't see a way to shut off the air on that, did I miss it?
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From what I saw and read, there is a flapper in the end of the pipe weighted with a small bolt to help keep it closed when it's off, but not too heavy to allow it to open when the fan comes on.
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i have been using a draft control on my shaver like this ,on the 2nd season now, and it works great. and no solenoid to mess with. mine is made of 4in. pvc with 45* turn down with a tin flapper inside it's self, soldered to a 1/8th piece of rod that is completely through the 4". i have this glued to the intake side of the blower . when the blower kicks on the suction opens the flapper wide open,and when the blower shuts down the flapper closes.. very simple, and very simple to make. by using a tin can lid for the flapper i was able to attach a small magnet to the bottom edge of the flapper it to get it to pivot closed fast. with the right weight on it, it stays shut ,even on the windiest of days.
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For natural draft you will need to have a taller insulated chimney. I haven't been following your posts so I don't know what all problems you are having, but if it helps at all there was a thread about 50 pages long over on arboristsite.com named "shaver improvement thread". Seems like a lot of guys had trouble regulating the water temp and blower/damper issues. Most seemed happy after some home made mods, good luck!
Mr. Woodperson....I'm "only" up to page 28 on that site and I HAVE earned a bunch. Here's the situation, when I got this 250 Shaver, the invoice read that I had a 75 cfm with auto damper. Well I had the 50 cfm with manual damper. As I got to thinking this afternoon, the 50 cfm blower had the "manual slide" plate. Shaver's thought son this was so that if one wanted to tinker with burn times, one could do so with this type of damper. So me gets to thinking...folks be sayin' that we shouldn't be messing with the damper as far as how far it is open and we don't want it closed...if this is the case, why was there a "slide damper" on the 50 cfm? Why was it not just WOT?
Seems to me....that I could "preserve" wood if the damper OR Positive closure were adjustable down to 1/4- 3/8" open. If this is NOT supposed to be right....what's up then wit da 50 cfm wit da slide damper?
Why doesn't Shaver cover this better than they do, which is NAUGHT?!! :bash: :bash:
Lugnut
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Burn baby burn.......so please tell me how you guys know just how many burns you get in a 12 hour time frame? Do you camp outside along the wood burner? Inquiring mind...NOT minds, my mind would like to know. If I have to camp outside, that means I would have to remain awake, which will be difficult since the temps will be nice and cool, but if I don't remain awake, I might freeze to death and then I won't have to worry how many burn times/cycles the unit went through.
I will be back later. Have jazz band rehearsal to attend to now. Looking forward to reading some more. I sincerely thank you for the education I'm getting.
Lugnut
aka: Jerry
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HI Jerry,
Can you post another picture (of your blower configuration.) I have the 75CFM w/solonoid and have not had any issues with mine, (maybe just lucky on my end). I have read all the threads going back to 2008 on all the forums I could find prior to buying. Many guys made their own damper/blower modifications from everything from coffee cans to dryer vents, this was prior to them adding a solonoid as an option from Shaver.
Ed
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Burn baby burn.......so please tell me how you guys know just how many burns you get in a 12 hour time frame? Do you camp outside along the wood burner? Inquiring mind...NOT minds, my mind would like to know. If I have to camp outside, that means I would have to remain awake, which will be difficult since the temps will be nice and cool, but if I don't remain awake, I might freeze to death and then I won't have to worry how many burn times/cycles the unit went through.
I will be back later. Have jazz band rehearsal to attend to now. Looking forward to reading some more. I sincerely thank you for the education I'm getting.
Lugnut
aka: Jerry
Don't care about burn cyles of the OWB, just that it last 12 hours before re-loading. Don't freeze and have a nice time at the rehearsal
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Burn baby burn.......so please tell me how you guys know just how many burns you get in a 12 hour time frame? Do you camp outside along the wood burner? Inquiring mind...NOT minds, my mind would like to know. If I have to camp outside, that means I would have to remain awake, which will be difficult since the temps will be nice and cool, but if I don't remain awake, I might freeze to death and then I won't have to worry how many burn times/cycles the unit went through.
I will be back later. Have jazz band rehearsal to attend to now. Looking forward to reading some more. I sincerely thank you for the education I'm getting.
Lugnut
aka: Jerry
I just look here to see mine http://rsiboilers.com/temp.htm (http://rsiboilers.com/temp.htm)
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Or here http://rsi.dyndns-home.com:8000/last.htm (http://rsi.dyndns-home.com:8000/last.htm) :D
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[/quote]
tinner...guess that means you'll be coming up in the "warmer" months eh? LOL!!
[/quote]
naw, you'll get it. :thumbup:
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I get a email every time a burn cycle starts:
Http://ridgekid.dyndns.org:8080/index.html (http://ridgekid.dyndns.org:8080/index.html)
You shaver owners live in the stone age or what? Actually just installed it a few weeks ago. Thought you guys were following the thread in central boiler forum.
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For natural draft you will need to have a taller insulated chimney. I haven't been following your posts so I don't know what all problems you are having, but if it helps at all there was a thread about 50 pages long over on arboristsite.com named "shaver improvement thread". Seems like a lot of guys had trouble regulating the water temp and blower/damper issues. Most seemed happy after some home made mods, good luck!
Mr. Woodperson....I'm "only" up to page 28 on that site and I HAVE earned a bunch. Here's the situation, when I got this 250 Shaver, the invoice read that I had a 75 cfm with auto damper. Well I had the 50 cfm with manual damper. As I got to thinking this afternoon, the 50 cfm blower had the "manual slide" plate. Shaver's thought son this was so that if one wanted to tinker with burn times, one could do so with this type of damper. So me gets to thinking...folks be sayin' that we shouldn't be messing with the damper as far as how far it is open and we don't want it closed...if this is the case, why was there a "slide damper" on the 50 cfm? Why was it not just WOT?
Seems to me....that I could "preserve" wood if the damper OR Positive closure were adjustable down to 1/4- 3/8" open. If this is NOT supposed to be right....what's up then wit da 50 cfm wit da slide damper?
Why doesn't Shaver cover this better than they do, which is NAUGHT?!! :bash: :bash:
Lugnut
I guess I still don't understand what you are having trouble with. Are you getting too much draft or not enough? If it helps at all my fan is rated at 150cfm. It has a adjustable restricter plate on the discharge side of the fan. I have it closed about 2/3 of the way down. All I did was watch the smoke from my chimney and went with a compromise of a few minutes of smoke at start up then mostly a clean burn during the rest of the cycle. If I give it more air it comes up to temp a little faster but seems to send more heat heat out the stack. If I restrict it more it smokes almost the entire time and takes a long time to get the water up to temp. I have no cresolt issues and no trouble with 12-16 hour burn times.
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Your link is not working Ridge
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Your link is not working Ridge
After you click his link remove everything before ridge
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I get a email every time a burn cycle starts:
http://ridgekid.dyndns.org:8080/index.html (http://ridgekid.dyndns.org:8080/index.html)
You shaver owners live in the stone age or what? Actually just installed it a few weeks ago. Thought you guys were following the thread in central boiler forum.
I just checked your boiler status. Looks like the dragon is makin' smoke and you are taking a shower!
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Thanks RSI. Think I have it fixed now.
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Wife taking her bath. Funny.
I was going to tell the shaver guys us CB owners got that temp monitoring kit with our purchase, but I thought I would be pushing it.
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Or here http://rsi.dyndns-home.com:8000/last.htm (http://rsi.dyndns-home.com:8000/last.htm) :D
Those shore are some purty pixures. ;D
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Your link is not working Ridge
After you click his link remove everything before ridge
WOW!!! that's happening in like...real time!!
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HI Jerry,
Can you post another picture (of your blower configuration.) I have the 75CFM w/solonoid and have not had any issues with mine, (maybe just lucky on my end). I have read all the threads going back to 2008 on all the forums I could find prior to buying. Many guys made their own damper/blower modifications from everything from coffee cans to dryer vents, this was prior to them adding a solonoid as an option from Shaver.
Ed
I can try or I can maybe copy/paste.
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HI Jerry,
Can you post another picture (of your blower configuration.) I have the 75CFM w/solonoid and have not had any issues with mine, (maybe just lucky on my end). I have read all the threads going back to 2008 on all the forums I could find prior to buying. Many guys made their own damper/blower modifications from everything from coffee cans to dryer vents, this was prior to them adding a solonoid as an option from Shaver.
Ed
Ed, I attempted to re-post the photo, but darn it...this site just confuses the heck out of me. If you go to the subject matter: Shaver Auto Damper on this forum site and go to page 3, you can view my damper. Or "positive closure."
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HI Jerry,
Can you post another picture (of your blower configuration.) I have the 75CFM w/solenoid and have not had any issues with mine, (maybe just lucky on my end). I have read all the threads going back to 2008 on all the forums I could find prior to buying. Many guys made their own damper/blower modifications from everything from coffee cans to dryer vents, this was prior to them adding a solonoid as an option from Shaver.
Ed
Ed, maybe because you have yours mounted vertical and not horizontal?
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For natural draft you will need to have a taller insulated chimney. I haven't been following your posts so I don't know what all problems you are having, but if it helps at all there was a thread about 50 pages long over on arboristsite.com named "shaver improvement thread". Seems like a lot of guys had trouble regulating the water temp and blower/damper issues. Most seemed happy after some home made mods, good luck!
Mr. Woodperson....I'm "only" up to page 28 on that site and I HAVE earned a bunch. Here's the situation, when I got this 250 Shaver, the invoice read that I had a 75 cfm with auto damper. Well I had the 50 cfm with manual damper. As I got to thinking this afternoon, the 50 cfm blower had the "manual slide" plate. Shaver's thought son this was so that if one wanted to tinker with burn times, one could do so with this type of damper. So me gets to thinking...folks be sayin' that we shouldn't be messing with the damper as far as how far it is open and we don't want it closed...if this is the case, why was there a "slide damper" on the 50 cfm? Why was it not just WOT?
Seems to me....that I could "preserve" wood if the damper OR Positive closure were adjustable down to 1/4- 3/8" open. If this is NOT supposed to be right....what's up then wit da 50 cfm wit da slide damper?
Why doesn't Shaver cover this better than they do, which is NAUGHT?!! :bash: :bash:
Lugnut
I guess I still don't understand what you are having trouble with. Are you getting too much draft or not enough? If it helps at all my fan is rated at 150cfm. It has a adjustable restricter plate on the discharge side of the fan. I have it closed about 2/3 of the way down. All I did was watch the smoke from my chimney and went with a compromise of a few minutes of smoke at start up then mostly a clean burn during the rest of the cycle. If I give it more air it comes up to temp a little faster but seems to send more heat heat out the stack. If I restrict it more it smokes almost the entire time and takes a long time to get the water up to temp. I have no cresolt issues and no trouble with 12-16 hour burn times.
Well I feel that I'm getting too much of a draft and that because of this, I'm going through wood at a rather quick pace. Seems that I'm loading it up sometimes three times a day....I pile the wood into the box, BUT NOT up to the tip of the firebox. And NOT all the way to the rear either. Just seems that the blower should not be running as often as it does.
Maybe I'm making too huge of an issue out of this, but...then why does Shaver tell you with the "original damper" to "play with it' and find the sweet spot( this last part is my words, NOT theirs.) Either open that puppy up all the way or close it down to where it is only open 1/3 to 1/4 of the way.
The thing about playing with this and making sure that it is just right, is all the putzin' with it and the chance of burning out the darn solenoid.....again. :bash: Yeah, I know there is NO written rule on how anything is done here, but there's just something I'm missing. The home made "positive closures" prolly work very well if the motor is mounted horizontal and not vertical.
Speaking of wood...it's 0802 and time to go out and check the firebox.
Lugnut
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OK try this, adjust your water temp as low as you can go and still keep your house comfortable. Set your temperature differental as wide as you can on the shaver. I have mine set at a 30 degree diff. The next time your blower kicks on wait about 5 minutes then adjust your damper right to the edge of little smoke/clean burn. If you are burning seasoned wood, and you have your water as low as you feel comfortable going, and you see little smoke, this is as effecient as your owb will get without chaniging design or adding insulation. Good luck!
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OK try this, adjust your water temp as low as you can go and still keep your house comfortable. Set your temperature differential as wide as you can on the shaver. I have mine set at a 30 degree diff. The next time your blower kicks on wait about 5 minutes then adjust your damper right to the edge of little smoke/clean burn. If you are burning seasoned wood, and you have your water as low as you feel comfortable going, and you see little smoke, this is as efficient as your owb will get without changing design or adding insulation. Good luck!
Well herein lies another problem...yeah I know: "what another issue what isn't wrong?" well we wont go into that.. LOL! I do not have the Ranco connected yet, so there is no way I can set anything at any kind of differential. Earlier on another thread of the Shaver page, someone mentioned that if the water temp is set too low that the creosote will again appear. Been through the creosote deali- bob and don't care to go back. :-( then there's the deal of how to adjust my damper. I tried the lengthening of the chain...does NOT work; I tried taping off the blower motor...does not work; I attempted to mount a turnbuckle up on the rear wall of the furnace and that would work, but, the solenoid has to be attached as well. :bash: IF I could mount the damper/solenoid on the blower in a vertical fashion, I would be having only half these issues, but for the fact that it is mounted as it is...this is the issue.
Well screw it. I'll just keep reading these posts and go back on the arbonist site and continue reading over there as well. If I don't get it figured out this winter, I'll play with it in the Spring. I have another idea though that someone gave me about mounting the damper...I might very well have to mount it to the crappy metal plate at an angle..solenoid higher than the opening.
Slugnut :bag:
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why did you mount the new blower in a different position then what it was designed for. by doing this you changed how the solenoid works, i believe yours pulls in?
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"Well I feel that I'm getting too much of a draft and that because of this, I'm going through wood at a rather quick pace. Seems that I'm loading it up sometimes three times a day...."
Jerry,
Yes mine is mounted vertical from the factory.
You say your going thru a lot of burns so your trying to slow it down by adjusting the blower gate, correct?
I'd be looking at why your water is losing temp so quickly, that it turns your blower on more frequently. Now that takes looking at :
Insulation on water box
Insulation on underground pex
Distance from OWB to house
Major air leak to fire box
Aquastat set too low
Square feet heated greater than output
Maybe someothers can time in here....
Ed
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why did you mount the new blower in a different position then what it was designed for. by doing this you changed how the solenoid works, i believe yours pulls in?
Jim,
The blower is mounted horizontal because there is no room to mount it vertically because of the water line directly above it. Look at the photos either on this thread some where or over on the thread titles Shaver Auto Damper.
Jerry
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"Well I feel that I'm getting too much of a draft and that because of this, I'm going through wood at a rather quick pace. Seems that I'm loading it up sometimes three times a day...."
Jerry,
Yes mine is mounted vertical from the factory.
You say your going thru a lot of burns so your trying to slow it down by adjusting the blower gate, correct? "CORRECT."
I'd be looking at why your water is losing temp so quickly, that it turns your blower on more frequently. Now that takes looking at :
Insulation on water box..........................How ever it was insulated at the "factory" is the way it is insulated now.
Insulation on underground pex..............foiled insulated wrap as is the norm for the underground pex lines.
Distance from OWB to house..................115 from OWB to the house.
Major air leak to fire box..........................NO leaks that I can find. Rear top plate has silicone arond all the gaps.
Aquastat set too low...............................No aquastat...just the standard DHW t-stat..temp on that stat set at 150*
Square feet heated greater than output....Pro Series 250....square footage of house 3400
Maybe someothers can time in here....
Ed
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Bubble wrap? Did you buy the insulated pex or make it yourself?
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Bubble wrap? Did you buy the insulated pex or make it yourself?
I bought the insulated pex...but NOT the thermo-pex. In other words it's not the solid insulation where the pex line is imbedded in the line. Okay, it's not bubble wrapped it has the foil insulation and lots of it and it's even "between" the pex lines.
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Is it blue foam?
It is most likely polyethylene foam which is what pipe insulation is made of.
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lug, that sounds like my first underground insulation...it looked like pink house fiberglass insulation with a foil back on it..i had to wrap my own. i was told to wrap the feed line once then lay the return line beside it and wrap the two of them together until the insulation ran out (i think it was about 3 wraps on the hot and 2 wraps on the return.) worked well with very little heat loss until the
outer shell (4 inch PVC pipe with glued joints) got a hole in it and let water in. after that happened there was no insulation value.
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Jim,
The blower is mounted horizontal because there is no room to mount it vertically because of the water line directly above it. Look at the photos either on this thread some where or over on the thread titles Shaver Auto Damper.
Jerry
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I checked the photo, looks like you can rotate to the right 90 degrees and be vertical. Is there something else in the way?
Ed
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Is it blue foam?
It is most likely polyethylene foam which is what pipe insulation is made of.
No sir...no foam here. Foil insulated wrap. Numerous wrap around both pex lines as well as in between. This stuff was not cheap, as most of you prolly know. I originally wanted the "thermopex" or what ever it's really called, but not at $12.00 a foot!
Lugnut :bag:
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lug, that sounds like my first underground insulation...it looked like pink house fiberglass insulation with a foil back on it..i had to wrap my own. i was told to wrap the feed line once then lay the return line beside it and wrap the two of them together until the insulation ran out (i think it was about 3 wraps on the hot and 2 wraps on the return.) worked well with very little heat loss until the
outer shell (4 inch PVC pipe with glued joints) got a hole in it and let water in. after that happened there was no insulation value.
Willie,
Ya know, I just thought of something...is this your name ? I'm going to feel like a real dweeb if I've been calling you someone you are not. Anyway, this underground insulation is foil wrapped several times around each pex line as well as inbetween the two pex lines. Now, I have noticed that the ground where my line is buried from the OWB to the rear of the house is damp. I have attributed this to the fact that the ground surrounding is frozen and the dampness is dues to the area being very warm,. My lines are only down 18" - 24". And the distance from the OWB to the rear of the house is a mere 115'.
Lugnnut
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There has to be something besides the foil. It is usually 3/16" or 1/4" thick layers of foam with foil on it. Did you get it from Shaver?
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There has to be something besides the foil. It is usually 3/16" or 1/4" thick layers of foam with foil on it. Did you get it from Shaver?
YES...you are correct!! I forgot......had a brain fart I suppose. Yes, there IS foam on the pex line along with the foil wrap. Thank you ! Been using too many brain calories as of late. :bash:
NO...I did NOT purchase this underground pex from Shaver.......had I done such a foolish thing, we would NOT be having this conversation because I'd still be waiting for it. :bash:
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Jim,
The blower is mounted horizontal because there is no room to mount it vertically because of the water line directly above it. Look at the photos either on this thread some where or over on the thread titles Shaver Auto Damper.
Jerry
I checked the photo, looks like you can rotate to the right 90 degrees and be vertical. Is there something else in the way?
Ed
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Jim,
Here in lies the problem...I kept thinking, "there IS a reason that I cannot flip that blower," and then I remembered...told you I've been burning way too many brain calories...if you go look at the photo of my auto damper, you'll see that large contraption of steel plate that Shaver mounted the solenoid on. This coupled with the insulated foam wrap I have on the line above where the blower sits, IS the issue. The photograph you are looking at has the smaller blower (50 cfm) on it. That's why there appears to be lots of room. I certainly wish I did have that room. I suppose I will have to remove the foam, then "maybe" drain the tank down below the top inlet of the pump, then pull off the 90 degree fitting and buy a nipple to bring that fitting out about 3-4"..closer to the door, but NOT up against the door. This I do believe this SHOULD give me the room I need to flip that blower. Have to wait until after Christmas before I can play with the furnace....doing darn Christmas lights now. Grrrr
Lugnut
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Now, I have noticed that the ground where my line is buried from the OWB to the rear of the house is damp.
Lugnnut
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I hate to say it but I think you have just found where your wood is going. Check your heat loss between the boiler and house. 3-4 degrees doesn't sound like a lot but is HUGE. More than 5 and your going to be in trouble when we get some real winter weather.
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Jerry,
This is how mine is, you can see the gate closes pretty tight, the plastic tubing is ridged enough to force the gate closed. Definetly sounds as though your losing water temp.
Ed
(http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/MGalleryItem.php?id=225)
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Now, I have noticed that the ground where my line is buried from the OWB to the rear of the house is damp.
Lugnnut
I hate to say it but I think you have just found where your wood is going. Check your heat loss between the boiler and house. 3-4 degrees doesn't sound like a lot but is HUGE. More than 5 and your going to be in trouble when we get some real winter weather.
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So in essence what you are saying is that my line is not deep enough into the ground? I've read numerous posts on here as well as the arbonist site that read one does not need to put the line down any further than 2'. When others have said to bury it below frost line, what is the frost line? In some areas it is 4', in other area it is deeper or shallower.
Okay, so if I have to dig the pex line up again come spring....anyone see any problem with tying new pex in to the existing line? this stuff was expensive and I don't fathom the idea of going out and spending $1200.00 again for another 200' of line.
Lugnut
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Now, I have noticed that the ground where my line is buried from the OWB to the rear of the house is damp.
Lugnnut
I hate to say it but I think you have just found where your wood is going. Check your heat loss between the boiler and house. 3-4 degrees doesn't sound like a lot but is HUGE. More than 5 and your going to be in trouble when we get some real winter weather.
So in essence what you are saying is that my line is not deep enough into the ground? I've read numerous posts on here as well as the arbonist site that read one does not need to put the line down any further than 2'. When others have said to bury it below frost line, what is the frost line? In some areas it is 4', in other area it is deeper or shallower.
Okay, so if I have to dig the pex line up again come spring....anyone see any problem with tying new pex in to the existing line? this stuff was expensive and I don't fathom the idea of going out and spending $1200.00 again for another 200' of line.
Lugnut
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If you have good insulation it doesn't matter how deep or shallow it is. Put it in deep and you have a good chance of getting into the water table. Bury it shallow and it may be buried at frost depth. If you are losing heat to the ground why would you put new pex in the existing line? The problem is the lack of insulation not the pex lines. You need to start by getting some real numbers on your heat loss (if any) to the ground. Then you can at least rule things out or start addressing them. If the problem is in the lines you have 3 options 1.Plan on using a crap ton of wood. 2.Spend the money on logstor. 3.Somehow dig up your lines and have them spray foamed with closed cell urethane.
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Jerry,
It may not be your underground pex, there are a few thing also to rule out. But as woodman states it is important to verify temps leaving OWB and temp entering house...
Let's look at my previous post and your answers.
Insulation on water box..........................How ever it was insulated at the "factory" is the way it is insulated now.
Insulation on underground pex..............foiled insulated wrap as is the norm for the underground pex lines.
Distance from OWB to house..................115 from OWB to the house.
Major air leak to fire box..........................NO leaks that I can find. Rear top plate has silicone arond all the gaps.
Aquastat set too low...............................No aquastat...just the standard DHW t-stat..temp on that stat set at 150*
Square feet heated greater than output....Pro Series 250....square footage of house 3400"
The one thing that stands out is that you say you have no aquastat on the OWB?. What triggers your blower to come on?
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Now, I have noticed that the ground where my line is buried from the OWB to the rear of the house is damp.
Lugnnut
I hate to say it but I think you have just found where your wood is going. Check your heat loss between the boiler and house. 3-4 degrees doesn't sound like a lot but is HUGE. More than 5 and your going to be in trouble when we get some real winter weather.
[/quote]
Have a friend coming over after Christmas with a infrared gun to check temps. Yeah, well the name I typed might not be what I'm thinking...but you guys know. So i can check and see what the temp diff is between the oWB and house.
Lug
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The temperature drop to the house doesn't mean much unless you know how many GPM are flowing through it.
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Jerry,
It may not be your underground pex, there are a few thing also to rule out. But as woodman states it is important to verify temps leaving OWB and temp entering house...
Let's look at my previous post and your answers.
Insulation on water box..........................How ever it was insulated at the "factory" is the way it is insulated now.
Insulation on underground pex..............foiled insulated wrap as is the norm for the underground pex lines.
Distance from OWB to house..................115 from OWB to the house.
Major air leak to fire box..........................NO leaks that I can find. Rear top plate has silicone around all the gaps.
Aquastat set too low...............................No aquastat...just the standard DHW t-stat..temp on that stat set at 150*
Square feet heated greater than output....Pro Series 250....square footage of house 3400"
The one thing that stands out is that you say you have no aquastat on the OWB?. What triggers your blower to come on?
Ed,
I have a t-stat on the rear of the furnace. When I read "aquastat" I think of the "brand name" of aquastat made by Honeywell. Sorry. I have the factory standard store bought t-stat on the furnace. It goes from 120 up to 180. I had it set at 150 for a long time and a friend today suggested I set it down to 140, which I did.
I plan in installing the Rancho sometime this weekend.
Jerry
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[
Ya know, I just thought of something...is this your name ? I'm going to feel like a real dweeb if I've been calling you someone you are not. Anyway, this underground insulation is foil wrapped several times around each pex line as well as inbetween the two pex lines. Now, I have noticed that the ground where my line is buried from the OWB to the rear of the house is damp. I have attributed this to the fact that the ground surrounding is frozen and the dampness is dues to the area being very warm,. My lines are only down 18" - 24". And the distance from the OWB to the rear of the house is a mere 115'.
Lugnnut
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yes that is my name and burying your pipe deeper will not effect your heat loss too much. however, if your pex lines come into contact with water (water gets through your insulation to the pipes) you will have tremedous heat loss. i believe i have read that single fin tube rads will give off about 40 btu per foot per hour in your home and they are surrouned by air. we know that water to water exchangers exchange heat faster than water to air but lets say the are the same. if your undergrounds lines are wet then we can say that your underground lines are giving up at least 40 btu per foot per hour (likley more) for a total of at least 4600 btu per hour (that would heat a 10' x 10' room) the depth of yoru pipes is not nearly as important as keeping them insulated and DRY
it is my opinion that your 12$ a foot for thermopex lines would be a good investment but that is just my opinion. maybe in five or six years i will feel different as i am only in my second year with it but i have experienced the other type i described earlier and it failed miserably.
good luck with your project
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"I have the factory standard store bought t-stat on the furnace. It goes from 120 up to 180. I had it set at 150 for a long time and a friend today suggested I set it down to 140, which I did."
Jerry,
I would not set it below 170, if your setting at 140 and your losing any amount of btus in the pex or elsewhere, the house will eat thatup quickly, the water can not keep up and will cycle your blower more often trying to maintain.
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"I have the factory standard store bought t-stat on the furnace. It goes from 120 up to 180. I had it set at 150 for a long time and a friend today suggested I set it down to 140, which I did."
Jerry,
I would not set it below 170, if your setting at 140 and your losing any amount of btus in the pex or elsewhere, the house will eat thatup quickly, the water can not keep up and will cycle your blower more often trying to maintain.
Ed,
Thank you . This is one of the things I've been wondering about. I've been playing with that goofy t-stat since back in October. Some say 140; some say 150; some say sell the OWB (tempted sometimes but NOT) . Okay so on my way out today I will turn it up to 170.
You know, this SHOULD have been a no brainer as I was reading everyone's comments on their settings for the Rancos or Honeywell Aqua-stats...when folks are saying they have them set for on @165 and OFF @ 170-75.
Thanks for the input Ed.
Willie...........egarding the Thermopex.....I just didn't have that kind of money at the time and in my situation I needed to make a couple sharp bends either getting into the rear of the OWB or into the rear of my house and that stuff just does NOT bend.
The heat is my house is being maintained. The temperature in my house has been at 73* 24 hrs a day and I have hot water in my DWH...it's just that I would love to slow down the usage of wood. Supposed to warm up this weekend (upper 30s) and I will see about hooking up the Ranco.
Hey guys, I "really" do mean this...to all of you, I really do appreciate all the advice and input you've given me. Means a great deal to someone who has never owned an "outside" wood burner. I had a wood burner in my shop, but that was long ago and that heat from that unit stayed right in the shop. This other thing is a whole new ball game for me...but I feel we're reaching home plate, albeit a little on the slow side, but that's fine too.
Lugnut
aka: Jerry
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lugnut-
One thing I have noticed is a lower setting on the thermostat conserves wood. Like you, we like 73* :thumbup: Yet, we turn it down at night. We don't get as many burns= wood consumption. If you can wean yourself to lower indoor temps you'll probably see lower wood consumption.
Just my .02
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lugnut-
One thing I have noticed is a lower setting on the thermostat conserves wood. Like you, we like 73* :thumbup: Yet, we turn it down at night. We don't get as many burns= wood consumption. If you can wean yourself to lower indoor temps you'll probably see lower wood consumption.
Just my .02
Kid,
See this is why I like this website so much!!! I'm telling you, I spend more time over here and the Arbonist site than I do at the national t-bucket alliance website. This again SHOULD have been a no brainer for me, because when I was using nat gas, we would turn the t-stat down at night and again during the day to conserve energy and so we wouldn't have a high gas bill. One more item that I'm going to try now.
1) set the t-stat on the furnace to 170*
2) dial down the house t-stat to 68 or so at night and during the day
3) Install that darn Ranco
Hey Ridgekid....thanks for spending that .02 on me. It IS appreciated.
Lugnut
aka: Jerry
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Sometimes its not good to get advise from too many "experts" because they will start contradicting themselves and leave you worse than where you started, but I will add to the confusion. It has been my experience with my house it has been better to adjust the themostat only 2 degrees from where you want it. I have a pretty large area that takes a while to heat up and cool down. I have a progamable thermostat for the house and I use to set it back to 68 at night then 73 during the day. It would take some time to come up 5 degrees, especially if the boiler had been idling most of the night and the water temp was down close to the low limit temp. I have found the house to be more comfortable and the boiler to be more effecient only backing it down to 71 at night. Try it both ways and see which works best for your set up. This is the 5th year for me and I am still learning little things that seem to help MY system work better. None of this is complicated by itself but start throwing everything together, add a problem or 2 that you are not even aware of, and it can be very frustrating to say the least. Hang in there! You will eventually get the bugs worked out and you will be more comfortable than ever using wood for heat.
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I hope the "experts" comment wasn't directed at me. because I'm no where near that status. I am however a quick learner, and with all my "tools" I have used and created, have a good record of how MY OWF is operating. It is my sincere hope that my efforts are helping somebody, no matter what OWF they own.
Just an added note, since I did not mention it above, our low thermostat set point is 70* at night. Our highest, in the evening before bed is about 74*. Most of the time the heat won't even come back on until the morning when I start raising it again, about 2* at a time. I do want to get a programmable thermostat, but am still finding it difficult to find the right one. (To work with a heat pump) But that's on another post/topic.
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I hope the "experts" comment wasn't directed at me. because I'm no where near that status. I am however a quick learner, and with all my "tools" I have used and created, have a good record of how MY OWF is operating. It is my sincere hope that my efforts are helping somebody, no matter what OWF they own.
Just an added note, since I did not mention it above, our low thermostat set point is 70* at night. Our highest, in the evening before bed is about 74*. Most of the time the heat won't even come back on until the morning when I start raising it again, about 2* at a time. I do want to get a programmable thermostat, but am still finding it difficult to find the right one. (To work with a heat pump) But that's on another post/topic.
No that was not directed at you at all. I was kind of poking fun at myself to be honest. My dad use to tell me the definition of a expert was anyone who lived more than 30 miles away. I was just trying to explain that what works well for one may not work the same for the other yet both are correct.
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lugnut..... is this OWB your first experience at burning wood to heat your house? these things do seem to like to consume wood and if you are new to burning ,,,,,well it might seem like a lot of wood. i have been burning since 9/7-till now have burnt 4&1/2 cords. my lines are homemade also and with no draw for heat i loose about 1* in around 300 ft round trip, buried at 2ft and it will melt snow . you can probably bury the same lines deeper and not melt snow but heat loss would be the same .
if my heat loss ever increases i will re dig the 65 ft that is buried an sleeve that section to protect against dampness.
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i have been burning since 9/7-till now have burnt 4&1/2 cords. my lines are homemade also and with no draw for heat i loose about 1* in around 300 ft round trip, buried at 2ft and it will melt snow . you can probably bury the same lines deeper and not melt snow but heat loss would be the same .
if my heat loss ever increases i will re dig the 65 ft that is buried an sleeve that section to protect against dampness.
it takes on average about 100 btu per hour per foot to keep 1 square foot of outdoor cement walkway melted off in the winter (depending on the air temp it can keep up to 1 to 1 1/2 inches of snow per hour. if your trench is 65 feet long and being buried 2 feet deep you are likley losing somwhere around that (or more because of the depth)
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You gave me an idea Willie, I will pour a sidewalk to my owb on top of my water lines and not have to shovel it off. LOL
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You gave me an idea Willie, I will pour a sidewalk to my owb on top of my water lines and not have to shovel it off. LOL
bull when i had my old water logged pipes my "walkway" was 2 feet wide and 250 feet long. i refused to believe when one outdoor salesman told me i was likley losing 4 cords of wood a year. i thought, sure you just want to sell me that expensive pipe..well i finally bit the bullet and bought it and last year (the first year i had it) i did save 4 cord!!
and last year i did need boots to walk through the snow to get to the stove :D no snow this year yet
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lugnut..... is this OWB your first experience at burning wood to heat your house? these things do seem to like to consume wood and if you are new to burning ,,,,,well it might seem like a lot of wood. i have been burning since 9/7-till now have burnt 4&1/2 cords. my lines are homemade also and with no draw for heat i loose about 1* in around 300 ft round trip, buried at 2ft and it will melt snow . you can probably bury the same lines deeper and not melt snow but heat loss would be the same .
if my heat loss ever increases i will re dig the 65 ft that is buried an sleeve that section to protect against dampness.
Jim,
Yes sir..this is my first OWB. I used to have a wood burning stove out in my shop, but the insurance company shut me down. I suppose NOW that I actually know how much wood composes a chord, I don't feel so bad. Although the wood on the side of my shop was but 3.5' high x 9-10' wide x 36' deep, I have no way of knowing how many chord that is/was. So yeah, I look at that wood that I once had and think..."holy cow, I'm going through a cart load of wood...something is not right." After reading the posts on here, I suppose I'm pretty much right in line with everyone else in regards to wood usage.
I have a call in to a wood supplier and will be ordering up three full chords of wood...and hopefully I can get through to the end of February...and that's prolly pushing it, but better to pay someone for wood than pay the utility company for the gas.
I decided AGAINST pulling the lines up in the Spring. I know that there is no leakage of ground water as even my well is down 160 feet. The heat from the pex pipe is melting the snow on the surface of the ground. The line is down 18"- 24". It's going to stay there. The only improvements that I will make will be to the OWB, but in the Spring.
So yeah Jim...this is my first year and I'm still a "newbie" and there's nothing wrong with that as everyone on here at one time or another was a newbie. If those that have been around here for a while thought that they knew all they had to know, then they would have left long ago, but I see there are many that have been members for quite some time, yet they are still here...why is this? I think it's because they too never cease learning and also the fact that they have been in our shoes and they can explain things better to us than the dealers /salespeople for these OWB can or ever will.
Lugnut
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lugnut,,, i'm with you on the lines, i feel mine are dry also and eventually with the help of the sun they will melt snow or frost, but it takes awhile. i would think if the lines were water soaked the water temps would bleed off at a much faster rate and you would see it on milder days as well. on days like this my temp bleeds off very,very slowly as with wood use also.since 9/7/11 it ate just at 5 cords.