Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Central Boiler => Topic started by: hddmax66 on December 18, 2011, 08:45:58 PM
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I just fired up my CB 6048 last night and today i noticed water coming from the under the door. is this normal? The front below the door is black from the drips splasing back on it. It was almost 40 out today. Also i was wondering if there is a sure fire way to tell if the pump i have is not under powered. Thanks
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Normal. That's a mix of condensation from a cold boiler start and depending on the dryness of your wood some creosote.
Welcome to the site!
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Thanks. How long will it do this? Also another question i have is how importaint is it to use a zone valve for my heat exchanger as i have a down draft furnace? Will the constant heat cause any problems?
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Once you you have your boiler hot it should stop. It may come back on warm days if your burning green wood and not getting many burn cycles.
Can't help you with the second part of your question. I do have to ask why a zone valve on a forced air unit?
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Thanks. How long will it do this? Also another question i have is how importaint is it to use a zone valve for my heat exchanger as i have a down draft furnace? Will the constant heat cause any problems?
I installed a three way zone valve on my system (upflow) so that I could run my furnace blower 24x7 if desired, and so that I can still heat my DHW in non heating seasons without introducing heat into my A/C. Some people simply put a manual 3 way valve in to bypass the heat exchanger on the furnace in non-heating seasons.
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OK understood. For me it's not something I need or want to do. When winter is over the Green Dragon and I are going on vacation (not together!)
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I was told that i should use a zone valve to stop the flow thru the heat exchanger when the fan is not runing. It kinda made sence since the exchanger is below the furnace and the heat is always going into the furnace and fan and not just into the vents as a updraft would do. I do know heat + electronics is not good and can shortin the life. Does this make sence? I wonder if anybody with downdraft furnace has experianced this.
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I was told that i should use a zone valve to stop the flow thru the heat exchanger when the fan is not runing. It kinda made sence since the exchanger is below the furnace and the heat is always going into the furnace and fan and not just into the vents as a updraft would do. I do know heat + electronics is not good and can shortin the life. Does this make sence? I wonder if anybody with downdraft furnace has experianced this.
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Well you are correct that heat rises and will enter your furnace cabinet and affect the electronic components 24x7. However, in spite of the fact that 185 degree water is flowing, without a blower forcing air across the exchanger I don't know how many BTU will be dissapated from the water.
We need a mechanical engineer to calculate or estimate that,
Or if you already have this installed, and it is running without a zone valve bypass you could use a thermometer to check the temp rise in the electronics compartment of your furnace during prolonged periods of your furnace blowere not running.
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Thanks. How long will it do this? Also another question i have is how importaint is it to use a zone valve for my heat exchanger as i have a down draft furnace? Will the constant heat cause any problems?
Definatly use a zone valve. I started without one and the radiant heat is huge. I could feel heat wafting out the intake vent. It also wastes a ton of heat.
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It depends on how the house and duct work are layed out. Most houses don't have a problem running through the heat exchanger all the time.
The best way to tell if your pump is not big enough it see how much temperature drop you are getting when the blower is running. (and hot water running if you have a plate for DHW)
If you can avoid a zone valve it will give you better water flow. a 1" 3 way zone valve is the same restriction as about 60' of pipe. (probably varies between brands and models)
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Im still leaking water from my door and its always damp on the bottom ledge of the door opening. I started filling with less wood about what i would need to get through the night. I filled last night with maybe 10 pieces. I checked when i got home at about 2 pm and a good amount of wood is still there and actually was a 50 cent size puddle of water on the botton ledge. I am also noticing rust forming on the bottom ledge. I think this is a serious problem that needs to be fixed. As of right now i do have an oversized unit for my needs. i have a buddy who has the same boiler and is heating about the same and he doesnt have a problem and i think it would be hard to blame the wood because for the first 3 weeks i used wood i got from him that he burns also with no water forming.
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Im still leaking water from my door and its always damp on the bottom ledge of the door opening. I started filling with less wood about what i would need to get through the night. I filled last night with maybe 10 pieces. I checked when i got home at about 2 pm and a good amount of wood is still there and actually was a 50 cent size puddle of water on the botton ledge. I am also noticing rust forming on the bottom ledge. I think this is a serious problem that needs to be fixed. As of right now i do have an oversized unit for my needs. i have a buddy who has the same boiler and is heating about the same and he doesnt have a problem and i think it would be hard to blame the wood because for the first 3 weeks i used wood i got from him that he burns also with no water forming.
I don't think you have a serious problem. I've had the same thing happen off and on earlier this year. I noticed it when I had too much wood in for a light heat load. Also, the way you load your wood makes a difference. Are you using split wood or round wood?
Try this: Next time stir your ashes and coals and pull them to the front lip of your stove. Depending on how cold outside, put in just 4-5 pieces of wood length-ways just to the back side of your coal/ash pile. This has all but eliminated my dripping from the bottom of the door.
Another thing you might check is the return water temperature to your boiler.
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Hello Hddmax66
I have a downdraft furnace I plan on not running my boiler in the non heating season. But I can tell you this if your heat exchanger is BELOW your A-coil for your A/C you need to to valve it off and drain your heat exchanger (make sure all water is out) because your a -coil will freeze your heat exchanger and you will have a big leak come next winter Unless you dont have A/C P.S . I wouldnt think that the constant heat would hurt the furnace without a zone valve your just heating the heat exchanger for nothing
Jack
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Unless your AC is low on freon it can't freeze anything. They don't run at temps that low.
I would use the method Yoder mentioned to shut the AC off at something like 38 degrees like he did. If the A coil was putting out air that was below 32 degrees it would freeze up solid from the condensation on it.
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dripping water from the door...there will always be some moisture escaping from your wood, most of this is evaporated but some always turns back to liquid form and usually russ down the walls and is abasorbed in the ash (at leaston the non gassers)
perhaps your stove sits a little off level and moisture runs towards the door and collects on teh door sill?
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It drips off the door because it is much colder than the rest of the firebox and condenses there first. Is there any insulation missing?
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could the rope seal be bad to cause the problem? The bottom seal looks not to be the best seal compared to the rest of the door. I dont know if its the fact of being wet all the time.
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RSI is right. Hot/cold contrast because damper opens up. If you are worried about rust at the base, caulk a cove joint at the front bottom to the concrete slab, if you have one, or caulk the whole perimeter.
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Adding a draft blower would fix it if it is caused by the outside air condensing as it enters the firebox but I think it is more likely moisture that came out of the wood.
What does CB use for insulation in the door?
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i dont exactly know. it says insulated cast iron door
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I can't speak about the a-coil but my dealer strongly urged the 3-way zone valve at my furnace and I saw why really quick. The first day I fired up my boiler and charged the lines I did not have the electrical set up at my furnace yet so I opend the zone valve to flow through the exchanger for the night until I could do he wiring. My house climbed up over 80 degrees in the night. Granted it was not cold outside that night but probably between 30 or 40 (this was back in Dec. 2008). My system is an updraft but even a down draft would do the same, the hot air would just flow out the return. If the heat has a way to rise, it will.
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Has anyone had a problem with a thermo valve in the new 2400 set up? I'm dropping 10 degrees coming into the house from 50 feet away. Any info would be appreciated.
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Has anyone had a problem with a thermo valve in the new 2400 set up? I'm dropping 10 degrees coming into the house from 50 feet away. Any info would be appreciated.
10 degree drop in 50 feet...
very slow gpm
terrible insulation on underground pipes
bad equipment taking the readings
those are the three things that pop into my mind for your readings?
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Thank you for the info. Use CB pex on under ground and insulated pipes behind the boiler. I'm using 009 at the boiler. A dealer suggested a possible defect in thermostat inside the thermo valve. Any word or has anyone have any insite on this Thank you
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A dealer suggested a possible defect in thermostat inside the thermo valve.
this would maybe lead to slow GPM? when this water goes through yoru heat exchanger (and the heat exchanger is giving up heat, like when the room is calling for heat) is the temp swing from the inlet to the outlet pretty big or no?
this could be an incicator of low flow if the temp is huge?
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Where is the temperature drop being measured? From the boiler to the house or at each end of the same pipe?
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My first temp gage is just beyond the thermo valve. The second at the inside boiler after the heat exchange. I was told that some thermo valves had the wrong stats. inside and are returning some of my hot water back to the outside boiler without making the full loop. Should we be down 1 or 2 degrees coming if all things being equal? I'm at a loss and my dealer is on vacation.
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My first temp gage is just beyond the thermo valve. The second at the inside boiler after the heat exchange. I was told that some thermo valves had the wrong stats. inside and are returning some of my hot water back to the outside boiler without making the full loop. Should we be down 1 or 2 degrees coming if all things being equal? I'm at a loss and my dealer is on vacation.
If you are past the thermo valve and downstream past your boiler exchanger, why do you think it is the thermo valve? How do you think you have low flow too? Or are you saying that basically you are getting this huge delta across the heat exchanger so your flow rate must be bad? Once again, someone needs to make a cheap flowmeter!
It was recommended to me to open a valve in your line somewhere (preferrably close to the return) and measure time to fill a 5 gal bucket. Then calc your flow rate. Not sure if you can do this.
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Thank you all for your info. We are going to try another pump Thur. and see if more gpm helps. I will report in.
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Might consider adding another temp guage before your heat exchanger. Still doesn't answer the "flow rate" question, but would tell you if the problem is between the house and boiler.
How do you like the 2400??? And how long have you been running it? I'm on 4th season with 2300. Overall not bad, I have to watch bridging in times of high consumption (I run greenhouses along with my house) and I have had several small repairs and upgrades. Recently a small leak in a bad corner weld and my air channel is not holding up well. Looking at my options for fixing or replacing them or sending the unit back for factory repairs and remaining upgrades.
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I am still not clear on where you are measuring the temperature. Is there anything between the two points you are checking? Are you using the same thermometer and on the same type surface?
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At my outside boiler I have 190 F confirmed. 48 feet inside my house, a temp. gu. says 180 F. The only thing in this section is the cb thermo valve. Either side of thermo valve I confirmed 180 F. I'm thinking I'm not, as one person stated, getting enough gpm. We will try a new pump thur. and hope.
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could it be the thermo valve? can you take it out of the line just to see what difference it makes? it is possable it is sticking part way closed and that would also give you less gpm delivery to yoru home?
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temperature
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Is it possible that the temp guage in the house is just not calibrated correctly? I have several of the little 1/8" inline thermometers from my CB dealer and I have some that read as much as 5 degrees different. Just a thought. Thermostatic valve would be my next guess.
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To rule out the gage you might want to get a thermal heat gun and try looking along your line. Even with a low flow, I would not think you would be dropping that much just with line. Is it insulated?
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Hi all To bring you up to date we removed the thermo valve today and picked up 5 degrees. We also found the pressure went up to 12 lbs., up from 9lbs. Tells me thermo was not opper. properly. We are now at 5 to6 degree loss coming into the house. With all pipes insulated, 009 pump, pex pipe, just seems a lot of loss in 48 feet. I want to thank each of you for great advice, I'm impressed how many bright people have answers my questions Thank you again
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that much heat loss in 48 feet with insulated lines leads me (and a few others here) to think your measuring devices are not calabrated equally
your taco 009 (i think) is moving somewhere around 7 gpm (a guess)
i doubt in 48 feet of POORLY INSULATED pipe that you would see 5 degree loss at that rate of speed, but you wold notice the snow above the pipe on the ground to be completely melted
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trailmaster
I don't think your temps after 48' mean much of anything. We sometimes forget that ThermoPex lines are only separated by 1/4" of foam, and that there will be some transfer of temperature from one to the other. My OWB is 95' from my house, and using my thermometer, I too get about a 5* loss coming into my house. My two heat exchangers pull about 25* out of my water, but if I shoot my line going back to my boiler in my basement and then the same line at the boiler, it will actually pick up about 4*. In other words, my incoming water is heating up my return water.
My valving is such that if I close two valves and open one I can bypass the exchangers all together. My incoming line in my basement is then usually only 1*-2* lower than what it is at my boiler, and I'm OK with that. I think you received a lot of good advise regarding your flow(or lack thereof). With everything running, I wouldn't think you should see any more than 6*.
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Hi Marty What your saying makes sense to me. We plan to add temp gu. at the outlet of the boiler and the inlet also, just before the pump and just after the check valve on the return. This should tell us if we need to recalibrate the controller temp. gu. or do we have this as fine tuned as well as it will be.
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I have 2 supply lines coming from my boiler. 1 feeds my house and the other is feeding a manifold with multiple pumps which heat my greenhouses. Right now those are drained but I keep water circulating through the manifolds, but there is virtually no heat loss as it is located 10' from the boiler. Anyway, I looked at both return lines today and it backed up my previous post about temp guages not being accurate. The greenhouse line was 2 to 3 degrees warmer than the temp on the boiler. The house return line was 5 to 6 degrees warmer than the current boiler temp. I guess my house is just that efficient?........NOT!! So accuracy is only so good. Basically I was told make note of what it reads and watch it for changes. I'll add too that my house lines are about 140' in length with 1" line and 009 pump. My boiler is located at the far end of one of my greehouses. Most of the line is above ground running under a bench with only regular pipe insulators and inside that green wrap my dealer gave me to keep water out. Only about 35' is Thermopex going under my driveway to the home. So a 50' run through insulated lines should not be dropping your temp. Thermostatic valve?, maybe, or just a bad guage.
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Trailmaster,
I just had a thought. A quick test would be to swap guages. That'll tell you quick enough if one is wrong.
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Down east I will try it. Keep one thing in mind, the 2400 runs great. I could recommend this unit to anyone.
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I was told that i should use a zone valve to stop the flow thru the heat exchanger when the fan is not runing. It kinda made sence since the exchanger is below the furnace and the heat is always going into the furnace and fan and not just into the vents as a updraft would do. I do know heat + electronics is not good and can shortin the life. Does this make sence? I wonder if anybody with downdraft furnace has experianced this.
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Well kinda wish i hooked up my zone valve. The circut board just fried on the furnace!