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I'm getting closer to replacing my Taco 009 and installing my Grundfos Alpha pump. The purpose of this post is for those interested.
The new pump arrived yesterday. There is a directional flow on the pump casing and if mounted out of the box I would of had to stand on my head to read the display. The four cap screws were removed and the pump head was rotated 180*
My Kill a Watt showed up today. (Thanks to RSI's suggestion on getting one) I tested the Taco 009 and got the following results:
122V
1.3 amps
150 watts
60 hz
Based on that information I'm using about 120 KwH a month just to operate the pump. The Grundfos should be about 30 KwH a month MAX.
I want to install this in the morning, so I have time to monitor it before night time. Don't want to wake up to a cold house. Just want to make sure that the adaptive control works on my heating arrangement. I should have an update by Saturday afternoon.
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Thought you had a taco007?
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This has me thinking, I'm going out to test mine now
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So did I until I looked at the nameplate.
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Strange to use a 009 on a furnace I thought.
But anyways, I just tested my pump, it was pulling 97 watts, at my electric rate that equals $9.23/month
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$9.84/month for the taco at my electric rate. $2.46 MAX with the Grundfos (If it works)
Why do you think using a Taco 009 is strange? Keep in mind I'm not a pump expert.
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I think that cb recommends the 009, i just hook up my friends 6048 and thats what the dealer said to use his stove is 200' away from house
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There was some flow charts on here somewhere, but the 007 and 011 were always what most folks used with a stove. Ill look for those charts but off the top of my head I don't remember exactly why the others were better suited.
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I think it is a really strange pump to use for OWBs too but CB must have some reason to be selling them. I sure hope they don't just go by the number on it and assume a bigger number means more water flow.
Did you get the white or the gray Kill a watt? Does it have a PF rating?
Do you have a valve after the pump? Can you slowly close it and see if it makes any difference on the watts it is using? Just curious if it will change on that pump.
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The kill a watt is a model P4400.01. It does have a pf button. It also has a P3 pn the front next to kill a watt.
My pump has a inlet and outlet valve. Should make it easy to replace the pump. If you want me to run that test I can. Give me a few minutes for the results.
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What it the PF number it is running at? When you get the new pump on post that number for it too.
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Geez RSI. I'll have to go back to check PF.
With the discharge valve closed it was only 10 watts less then with it open.
Anything else you would like me to check? ( I don't mind).
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PF with valve open 0.94. Valve closed. 0.92.
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What should I do to the taco before I put it on the shelf? It will be our backup pump. Store it with the pump flanges facing up and down or side to side? Or Does it matter? Maybe blow it out with compressed air so it's dry?
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Pics please :pic:
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Here's the taco installed. Grundfos pics tomorrow.
http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=31;preview (http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=31;preview)
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I have two Grundfos Alphas installed upside down. :bash: However, they are still running after two years so I guess I will leave them that way. :thumbup:
RidgeKid, looking forward to the report tomorrow after the install.
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Cant complain about the taco pump on my part..5 yrs going on 6 this yr....Original pump (007) with the OWB..
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You understand I was in the market for a spare pump and decided it was a good opportunity to put the Grundfos to the test? I also have no complaints with the taco. (009)
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Oh totally agree with having a spare pump..Def need one on hand..I have a friend that works in the oil boiler field..Funny tonight he was talking about the Grundfos pumps and how the save power or something like that...
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We will soon see!!
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good luck!.. lets us know you you make out!
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It's Installed!!
It took about 20 minutes.
Thank goodness for universal slip flanges.
I left the pump rotated away from the OWF for easy view of monitor.
The Pump is about 1/4" longer than the TACO (Flange to Flange) Recommend replacing when PEX is hot!
Pics in the Gallery!
During the first furnace run I saw no change in heat load vs the TACO. I always pulled 15* when the furnace fan kicked on. I still pull the same with the new pump.
I'll keep my eye on it during the day and see what it settles out at. Right now (within 30 minutes of install) the adapt control is 29W/5GPM.
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Did you try it with the kill a watt to see if the watt reading match? I never tried that.
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Why did I know you were going to ask me that? You'll be happy ( at least I am) to know that it matches watt for watt!!!
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First Four Hour Observation!!
We are putting it to the test!! Wife did laundry, I washed vehicles. The pump has dropped to 22 watts/4 gpm.
Has it effected the Dragons performance? It does not appear so. During the last burn, it came on right at 174*. By the time the wood ignited it dropped to 171* but quickly recovered.
Is this pump pumping less than Taco? Yes. I've been watching my x300 and temps are dropping lower on the return trip to the Dragon then they did before. Up to 5* lower. So it seems to take longer for the water to get back to the dragon.
But is this a bad thing?
1. I'm taking more heat out of the water
2. More burn times on dragon=less creosote?
3. Not longer burn times, just more burns.
Anything else you suggest I should look out for?
So far I don't see any problems. I guess time and lower outside temps will tell. Wood consumption could be another factor too.
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My pump is a taco 007 checked today with my killwatt meter volts 121.9 HZ 59.9 VA 86.0 watt's 85.3 amp .70 PF .98 my killawatt meter is grey and has a p3 number on the front. Im looking at my newest light bill and cant find what the charge is per kilo watt. :D
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Ridgekid, that makes sense regarding the slower return of water to the boiler at 5gpm. With the Taco, it was probably 7-8 gpm. The trade off is using less electricity to using more wood? If performance is equitable, then I would vote for burning more wood. Question is how much more wood with more burn time?
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Mtjag- I think that will be the real test. As long as the pump can handle the heat load, I don't have a problem putting more wood in the Green Dragon if that's the case. Wood is a free commodity around here.
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Why would it use more wood? You are using the same number of BTU's regardless of how fast the pump is running.
If the lower return temperature is making the boiler run more then I would set the differential higher because it would be caused by a false reading from return water near the sensor.
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Yeah. It's too early to tell. I'm just trying too hard to predict what's its going to do.
Btw my kill a watt check started the adaptive control over but it has set itself to 20 watts and 4 gpm.
We are still keeping our eye on it.
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I have a Grundfos 1/25 hp pump witch has 3 speeds that pumps the boiler water back to the boiler. On my instilation the water gravity feeds to the hx and is pumped back to the boiler. Is this ok or less efficient than mounting the pump on the boiler? I also wander how to tell witch speed is best? Help me to understand.
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Woody. It depends on your application. Since its a circulating pump it's just important that the pump and the pex lines are not located higher than the fill line on the sight glass of the OWF.
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12 hour Update
Pump appears to have settled on 18 watts and 3 gpm as the lowest set point for my system. No changes in last few hours as no heat has been used.
I ran a test of the pump to see how smart it really was. I closed the discharge valve and it reported 0 gpm at 11 watts. Guess i couldn't fool it!!!
We will see how it does overnight.
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It's been 24 hours.........
So I went out this morning to see if I had any wood left in the Green Dragon. Yep, its there. Half of what I put in last night.
Next I checked to see how many times the Green Dragon came on. That was 2X. It was idle until 5:30 am. Thermostat kicks up at 6AM. So there was one burn cycle after that.
I check the Grundfos- 16 Watts at 3 GPM.
Interesting..... The last two days have been very similar in temperatures. The day before I had 2 more burns then I did last night.(For the same 8 hours)
Conclusion? The faster you move the water, the faster you loose heat? (When there is not heat load?)
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NEW INFO------PLEASE READ!!!
So after my post this morning I'm sitting all dumb and happy when I looked over at my Green Dragon temp display and see my Furnace is on, wife is using HW and the return temp to the boiler is 99*. WHAT???? The furnace is pulling 30* out of the exchanger and the 20 plate is pulling almost 40*.
I run out to the pump and see it's auto adapted to 15 watts 2 gpm. If 99* water doesn't make it increase flow, it's time to set it on a desired pressure or speed control.
I know I had no issues at 4 GPM. So do I want speed or pressure control? I opted for pressure control. Why? Speed control will deliver the same amount at a given wattage set point. There would still be savings compared to the TACO. Pressure control will deliver the same amount of flow, but as the water gets hotter it reflects a lower wattage.
I can live with 25-28 watts delivering 3-4 GPM.
We'll watch it again, but I don't expect any more problems.
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Been thinking bout your sweet spot question and the whole idea in general.
I really don't think any of it matters. You said your water was going back at 99, but heck only 2 gpm. Your still extracting the same number of btu's regardless of how fast the water is moving.
Let's say you moved 1 gpm, and that water lost 50 degrees. That's no different than 5gpm losing 10 degrees. Just an example, same number of btu were used from the green dragon
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Thanks Scott. My concern was more of the cold water returning. That can't be good to inject 99* water back into a hot boiler. Then there's that magic number not to dip below. 140*. At that point your introducing oxygen. Correct?
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Update-Day Two
Pumping more water does seem to be improving the performance. At 4 GPM, I have 20* going across the heat exchanger when the furnace fan is on. So I would have to say 20* is the highest I would want to go.
I do want to also note I'm actually getting LESS # of burns at the slower GPM rate. (vs the Taco) After reviewing my records for the same daily average Temperatures and number of burns, I have reduced the number of burns by 1/3.
Today I'm going to operate at highest speed* to see if there are any changes, if not I will adjust back to highest Constant pressure.
We will continue monitoring the progress.
*=highest speed is 43 watts at 6 GPM.
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Thanks Scott. My concern was more of the cold water returning. That can't be good to inject 99* water back into a hot boiler. Then there's that magic number not to dip below. 140*. At that point your introducing oxygen. Correct?
Ridgekid,
The lower the water temperature, the higher the oxygen solute. Oxygen is not present in water at 180F degrees (82C). For the purpose of comparison, which I think you may be interested in:
Oxygen solute (mg per liter of water):
180F: 0mg
140F: 14mg
104F: 31mg
68F: 43mg
This is the rationale for the setpoint of 180F degrees in an OWB. Corrosion is prevented by the lack of oxygen. Industrial applications take this a step further by pressurizing their boiler systems.
The 40F degree differential you reported would concern me a little (though, as you know, this isn't my profession) because of two things:
1. Cold stress/Hot stress of the steel (carbon steel in your case I believe)
2. It is not efficient
The different types of steel used in OWBs (mild, carbon, 304 and 409) probably have different characteristics that affect how each perform over the long term to cold/hot stress. I don't even know the characteristics of my own (409), but I have to say, it was a significant investment that I want to last for a very long time and to that end, 180F is my preference along with <=20F differential. No oxygen and reduce stress as much as possible.
There are so many factors that influence efficiency, it is hard to know where to even start. I would think though, that as the temperature drops, a higher flow rate would be very beneficial to maintain the differential.
Do you have a radiant setup?
Michael
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The water is coming to the boiler at 180°, goes through the heat exchangers and drops to 100°. If there was no oxygen in the water when it came in it will have none on the way out.
2-4 GPM is a very small amount of water. and the temperature difference probably won't hurt anything. Is there is a pipe that goes a ways into the water jacket then it will be hot before it even mixes.
There is a lot bigger temperature difference in the firebox than 100°.
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Hey rbi, have you experimented with the grundfos alpha pumps any?
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Ridge,
I'd run that puppy ba!!$ to the wall if its only drawing 43 watts >:D That's still 107 less than the old pump. You have a lot invested in the dragon and it would be a shame if saving 6 or 8 bucks a month cost you even one year less longevity out of your pride and joy :-\
Marty
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This morning I set the Grundfos on max speed which showed 43 Watts at 6 GPM. When I got back from a meeting at the office it said 43 watts 4 gpm.??? I changed the setting back to pressure control 38 watts/4 gpm.
Across my furnace exchanger I get 20* heat load as long as I have 4 gpm. I'm good here!
For my 20 plate for my domestic hot water I'm dropping the return temp by 60-70* (Just witness this as wife filled up the tub). As soon as she was done filling it jumped right back up OWB return temp. (Return dropped to 104* during tub filling)
Based on all the replies, the distance I'm from the house to the Dragon and my test results I don't want to prematurely wear out the Dragon. Since I can't get the Grundfos to hold 6 Gpm, i think I'm going to be forced to put the TACO back on.
Anybody out there closer than 80' from their house to their OWF that wants to make arrangements for this Grundfos let me know. I need a TACO 009 F5 for a spare. (They are about the same price)
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Wear it out? If the water enters back into the stove and travels through a pipe inside the water jacket it's heated back up before the water is released into the water tank.
I'm just not sure about all of this... I like the principle and it seems were ruling out it's success based on some theories that I've never seen proven, at least in my perspective
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Is 6gpm the most it will do on fixed speed high? That would mean it is 12' of head pressure. The 009 will only do about 7.5 gpm at 12' of head but you will probably only get about 7gpm because the head pressure will increase with more flow.
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Marty. 45 watts is max. So I basically was running it all out.
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If you want a better pump look at the bell and gosset pumps ridge kid, there not water lubricated and from what I can gather there top notch. I seen some today in an hospital and that's usually a sign there a great pump. Rsi uses one of these models
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Yeah, I use the PL36 model. It is a lot bigger pump than the 009 though. It will flow about 3 times as much water and probably use about 160 watts on your setup.
They make a PL30 but I can't get them for a decent price. It would flow probably over 1-1/2 times as much as the 009 and use around 100 watts I am guessing. (never used one so don't have actual watts numbers for it)
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I'm definitely seeing where that design has it's advantages! They are much more efficient and don't have to worry about your water being a lubricant
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Sorry to hijack thread but i have a question along the same lines.
Getting ready to hookup radiant floor pole barn in the next month, My run is 15 feet from owb and 3 runs of 300 feet pex 1/2" tubbing. Looking @ the drawing on cb's website they use (2) taco 007 pumps(1 on the owb and 1 on the water to water heat exchanger thermostatically controlled). However i really like the thought of energy savings of the grundfos.
Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks newmanab
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your loop of 300 feet of 1/2 pex will give you around 10 feet of head i am only guessing that you will need 3 to 5 gpm perhaps others hear can tell you how fast you need to deliver your water to the floor i have been told you should move the water fast wnough to keep your in and out temps of the floor loops to about 10 or 12 degrees max i have one loop in my small basement of about 250 feet and have a three speed grundfos on it and run it in low speed to maintain a ten degree drop
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I run four of the Grundfos Alphas (three in my house radiant plumbing and one at my OWB). The ones in the house are all set to AutoAdapt and run at various speeds, from 2gpm to 7gpm. I have eight runs of 1/2" pex in the floor on the first floor and eight runs in the second floor with each run being 128' each. I replaced the original Taco pumps because they were using too much electricity, since I am off grid solar. The Grundfos pumps use less than 1/3 of the of the original Taco pumps combined.
I have set the pump on the OWB at the highest constant pressure and it runs at 38-40 watts and 4-5gpm. My OWB pumps runs year round, and during the summer when my boiler is shut down, I turn it to AutoAdapt and just let it run.
I hope that helps some. For me, being off grid solar, it's the only way to go.
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Mtjag and Willieg thanks for the great info. I believe thats the route i'm Going to go :P i'm trying to lower my energy usage. I'm still not sure how you guys are using areound 1000kwH :o. The last month for me was 1600khw, But that sure beats when i was heating with electric. Average with taxes $.096/kwh
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my home is power hog too..i use about the same as you monthly
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My home is 2300 sq ft, 4 ppl in the home and I use around 750khw in the winter months... Our rate is 13.2 cents/kwh
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electricity is teh only "service " i have..no gas no propane or anything also my in gorund water stove (that i use the blower from to heat my home) is a one horse motor not some puny 1/2 horse (wish it was) i am also on well water so i have to pay to run the pump for that. we tend to leave lights on when we shouldn't too..we are trying to be better conservers but we are not very good at it yet
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Just got my electric bill the other day..used 575 KWH .1800 sq ft house.. Bill $105.26
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Just got my electric bill the other day..used 575 KWH .1800 sq ft house.. Bill $105.26
That is impressive.....