Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: chadley on January 16, 2012, 08:04:10 AM
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Okay. I get the gassification OWB's meet the new E.P.A standards and the old ones don't. Other than that, whats the difference? Are the gassification stoves more efficient, or vice versa?
It has been suggested by one company to buy the old OWB's because the new gassification OWB's haven't been around long enough to work the bugs out. What are your thoughts. I know I've asked a lot of questions but I'm trying to wade through all the information to make the best and most informed decision on which OWB to buy.
Thanks ahead of time for your help
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Gasification units are more efficient. HOWEVER they do require more maintenance to keep them that way.
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More efficient meaning burns less wood, but cost more money. Also wood has to be well seasoned, too, I think.
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The gasser burn less wood but it does have to be well seasoned and you do have more maintenance with them. I like the old style that will burn what ever you put in them.
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As others have said, gasification units are more efficient and they are much more enviromentally friendly. Do a search on you tube- the secondary burn chamber burns like a rocket. I suspect the technology has been around for a while, but it is now coming into wider use. Some members of this forum have built there own and they work very well.
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I posted elsewhere that some states (NH) do NOT allow non-gassers anymore. And, check with your local code enforcement officer to be sure they are allowed in your town, community, etc... before shelling out money for something you may not be allowed to have. Roger
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Thanks for the replies. I have checked Indiana laws and the HE 2100 heats 350,000 BTU so its considered industrial/commercial and doesn't fall under the new epa guidelines. It also heats 10k sq ft. whereas the GX 10 heats approximately 4000. Why would anyone go with the GX 10 and sacrifice money and BTU/sq footage? I'm really leaning towards the 2100 but am still looking at Hardy H4 and Shaver 250. I just can't seem to fork over the money for a CB.
I live in the country and sell firewood as a side job. My neighbors don't care about smoke. We all burn our trash in burn barrels so whats the need in a gassification OWB? Any need?
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Thanks for the replies. I have checked Indiana laws and the HE 2100 heats 350,000 BTU so its considered industrial/commercial and doesn't fall under the new epa guidelines. It also heats 10k sq ft. whereas the GX 10 heats approximately 4000. Why would anyone go with the GX 10 and sacrifice money and BTU/sq footage? I'm really leaning towards the 2100 but am still looking at Hardy H4 and Shaver 250. I just can't seem to fork over the money for a CB.
I live in the country and sell firewood as a side job. My neighbors don't care about smoke. We all burn our trash in burn barrels so whats the need in a gassification OWB? Any need?
I am with you on that.
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Thanks for the replies. I have checked Indiana laws and the HE 2100 heats 350,000 BTU so its considered industrial/commercial and doesn't fall under the new epa guidelines. It also heats 10k sq ft. whereas the GX 10 heats approximately 4000. Why would anyone go with the GX 10 and sacrifice money and BTU/sq footage? I'm really leaning towards the 2100 but am still looking at Hardy H4 and Shaver 250. I just can't seem to fork over the money for a CB.
I live in the country and sell firewood as a side job. My neighbors don't care about smoke. We all burn our trash in burn barrels so whats the need in a gassification OWB? Any need?
What do you get for your wood and how far from Jennings county are you?
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I was in the same boat as you last year chadley. Spent alot of time on the net, on here, and looking at stoves.
Out of the stoves I looked at in person, which were all non gassers,(hawken, natures comfort, burnrite, cb) the cb was far and beyond the most impressive.
Most warranties are not worth the paper they are on, they will find a loophole somewhere to make it seem like your fault. And besides that ther are not alot of things to go wrong with them if you get a good unit. I found a used cb on craigslist that was in great shape and came with many parts. That helped keep my total down a little. Just remember, no matter what you get, you're gonna have about 10k into it and you only want to do it once.
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I agree with merrell. Big investment, so do it right the first time and avoid headaches later on.
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chadley,
From what I've read on the hearth forum, starting sometime in the year 2014, anyone owning an OWB that is not EPA phase 2 compliant will not be able to sell their property with an operational conventional OWB on it. In other words- if you plan on staying on your property for a significant period of time, than a conventional one may be alright for you, as you will be grandfathered in, but the OWB will need to be removed should you decide to sell. If the OWB is the only heat source, it's removal will obviously diminish property value a bit. They are saying that the implementation of the program will be nation wide. I'm not buying it totally until I see something from the EPA. I've sent them 2 email's in the last two weeks and I've not received any response.
Sorry for that ramble.
Back to your post now. Gassers, and from what I've read it doesn't matter much what brand, will burn around 40-45% less wood than the average conventional OWB, as much as 60% less than very inefficient OWB's, and about 30-40% less than some of the very efficient ones. They will burn wet wood, however efficiencies suffer a lot- but that is true of a conventional OWB also, and cleaning frequencies will be shortened with wet wood. Cleaning mine takes just under 10 minutes/week of my time. The gasification process has been around for nearly 200 years, and there are OWB company's out there that started making them back in the '90's, so the technology is not new, as the European's they have been using gassers(usually indoor ones) for more than 3 decades.
I think it's awesome that people are considering renewable resources to heat their homes. I started out with a conventional OWB about 5 years back, then moved to a gasser last year. At a month shy of 50, hauling 45% less wood home is much easier on these old bones, and although my neighbors had never complained about my conventional OWB, I feel much better that I'm not sending smoke in their direction anymore. I'd now never consider anything other than a gasser. Burning 5 or 6 cords/year is a lot better than going through 9 or 10....or 11. But, hey, I'm gettin' old.
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Thanks for the replies. I have checked Indiana laws and the HE 2100 heats 350,000 BTU so its considered industrial/commercial and doesn't fall under the new epa guidelines. It also heats 10k sq ft. whereas the GX 10 heats approximately 4000. Why would anyone go with the GX 10 and sacrifice money and BTU/sq footage? I'm really leaning towards the 2100 but am still looking at Hardy H4 and Shaver 250. I just can't seem to fork over the money for a CB.
I live in the country and sell firewood as a side job. My neighbors don't care about smoke. We all burn our trash in burn barrels so whats the need in a gassification OWB? Any need?
What do you get for your wood and how far from Jennings county are you?
I sell oak (white and red), ash, cherry, walnut for $65 an 8 foot truck bed. After its stacked, it is about 3/4 cord. I'm not sure where Jennings county is. I live 20 miles northeast of evansville in boonville.
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thanks martyinmi. That post was helpful. My local hawken dealer claims that the gassers are not much more efficient than the non gassers. he says maybe 2 or 3 points which brings me to my first question. What do the "points" transfer into laymens terms? Second, why would he try to sell me a lower priced unit? The hawken GX 10 is around 8 and the HE 2100 is around 7200 (quoted). Last, I've been told there is a lot more maintenance to gassers which kind of goes against what you were saying about less cleaning time. What are your opinions on maintenance between the two?
Thanks. You all have been helpful.
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I have only owned a gasser, and its been a short while - this past October. Cleaning takes me 15-20 minutes and now that its finally cold I am doing it once a week. When the weather was warmer I was doing it every 2 weeks. I found out this past weekend that a dirty gasser is not good. It smoked a lot more than I'm used to (but much less than non gassers i've seen) and it doesn't gas correctly.
Marty - I still want to chat with you sometime about my unit. Not sure what times are good for you during the week?
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thanks martyinmi. That post was helpful. My local hawken dealer claims that the gassers are not much more efficient than the non gassers. he says maybe 2 or 3 points which brings me to my first question. What do the "points" transfer into laymens terms? Second, why would he try to sell me a lower priced unit? The hawken GX 10 is around 8 and the HE 2100 is around 7200 (quoted). Last, I've been told there is a lot more maintenance to gassers which kind of goes against what you were saying about less cleaning time. What are your opinions on maintenance between the two?
Thanks. You all have been helpful.
From what I am hearing they are a good bit more work. I have a classic and I pretty much do nothing to it. About every 3 months I pull some ash out but that's it. I am not really sure I even need to do that. It seems like the ash builds up fast to a certain level and then just stay there. I am burning abotu a cord a week right now so it is seeing some hefty use too.
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Muffin- And I thought it was just me. I clean mine out and it seems like days later I need to clean it out again. Three weeks later it's still at the same level it was after the first week. Glad to know I'm not completely nuts.
My only explanation is the "Cinders" slowly burn down into ash, which obviously uses less room.
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Yeah. I think anything below the door bassically stagnates. it seems the ash builds up really fast to that level. But as soon as it gets above the door I think it get air and burns up.
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chadley,
From what I've read on the hearth forum, starting sometime in the year 2014, anyone owning an OWB that is not EPA phase 2 compliant will not be able to sell their property with an operational conventional OWB on it. In other words- if you plan on staying on your property for a significant period of time, than a conventional one may be alright for you, as you will be grandfathered in, but the OWB will need to be removed should you decide to sell. If the OWB is the only heat source, it's removal will obviously diminish property value a bit. They are saying that the implementation of the program will be nation wide. I'm not buying it totally until I see something from the EPA. I've sent them 2 email's in the last two weeks and I've not received any response.
Sorry for that ramble.
Back to your post now. Gassers, and from what I've read it doesn't matter much what brand, will burn around 40-45% less wood than the average conventional OWB, as much as 60% less than very inefficient OWB's, and about 30-40% less than some of the very efficient ones. They will burn wet wood, however efficiencies suffer a lot- but that is true of a conventional OWB also, and cleaning frequencies will be shortened with wet wood. Cleaning mine takes just under 10 minutes/week of my time. The gasification process has been around for nearly 200 years, and there are OWB company's out there that started making them back in the '90's, so the technology is not new, as the European's they have been using gassers(usually indoor ones) for more than 3 decades.
I think it's awesome that people are considering renewable resources to heat their homes. I started out with a conventional OWB about 5 years back, then moved to a gasser last year. At a month shy of 50, hauling 45% less wood home is much easier on these old bones, and although my neighbors had never complained about my conventional OWB, I feel much better that I'm not sending smoke in their direction anymore. I'd now never consider anything other than a gasser. Burning 5 or 6 cords/year is a lot better than going through 9 or 10....or 11. But, hey, I'm gettin' old.
Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?
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thanks martyinmi. That post was helpful. My local hawken dealer claims that the gassers are not much more efficient than the non gassers. he says maybe 2 or 3 points which brings me to my first question. What do the "points" transfer into laymens terms? Second, why would he try to sell me a lower priced unit? The hawken GX 10 is around 8 and the HE 2100 is around 7200 (quoted). Last, I've been told there is a lot more maintenance to gassers which kind of goes against what you were saying about less cleaning time. What are your opinions on maintenance between the two?
Thanks. You all have been helpful.
Chadley, I can't answer your question about the difference in maintance since I have not ever owned a gasser, but I can tell you I am on my 5th year with my hawken he1000 and have been very happy with it. I work this stove pretty hard, I heat my dhw ( for 5), my 3000 sq ft house (living space) to 74* plus another 1800 sq ft 5' high crawl space kept around 65 and my garage mostly kept at 55. I live in Michigan so we do get fairly cold here. I use between 10-12 full cord from mid October thru mid May. Operating the stove is simple, if it is above 35* I load it close to full at 5:00 pm this will last 24 hrs. Between25*-35* I will add a few pieces at noon to make it till 5:00pm. If it is much colder than that I usually have to fill it half full at 8:00 am to make it till 5:00. Heat loss calc on my house only shows I average 30,000 btu/hr with a max closer to 60,000 when it is below zero with a wind. In other words I repace about 1500 gallons of fuel oil per year, plus my electric drops about $40.00 per month due to the dhw.
Comparing the gx10 to the 2100 is like comparing apples to oranges. I think the gx 10 is only rated for 3500 sq ft, slightly less than the he1100 at 4000' and well short of the 10,000' the 2100 is "rated for". Take these ratings as a measurement between units and not what you can actually heat. For example, If my wife was taking a bath, and the house was calling for heat, I couldn't heat my garage up to 70 at the same time. I get away with my system due to the fact that everything is'nt calling for heat all at once. I can't remember how much you were going to heat but I thought it was more than 3500'.
Also the statement your dealer made concerns me a little. A gasser should burn between 25-40% less wood than a convental boiler, IF your wood is correct moisture content and the boiler is kept clean. Make your chioce by what your heat load is, and what type and how much wood you have. My system works great for me, but I have a huge resource of available wood. If you are still deciding between a hardy, shaver, or hawken I think you have a easy choice. I think you owe it to yourself to look HARD at the more efficient but not true gasser designs offered by portage and main and heatmaster. Good luck!
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ok woodman. A lot of good info. thanks. The reason I was looking at the 2100 is because it is considered commercial and does not fall under Indiana EPA guidelines so that would negate any selling house issues in the future or any laws that may come into play. Also, everyone says go bigger rather than smaller. I am at this point only going to be heating 1800 sq ft but am going to be adding a 3 bay 2 story garage in the future of at least 1800 sq ft bringing my roundabout total to 3600-4000 sq ft. which is far below the 10000 rating of the 2100. I just figured I wouldn't have any room to worry with the bigger unit.
I sell firewood as a side job. I have sold approx 15-17 cords so far this year. I have access to a lot of wood that I can sell and even more than I can't sell but still burns well. Wood is not an issue per say other than it will take away from my profits of selling.
I have no clue about any of the other OWB's you mentioned. Why do you suggest them over the Hawken or Hardy? I have pretty well eliminated the Shavers. I don't like the idea of having to make a bunch of modifications to them to get them to work efficiently. Thanks for your help guys. I am soaking all of the info in so keep it coming if you have ideas or suggestions.
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The p&m and heatmaster both offer "traditional" stoves that add another pass for the flue gasses to exchange heat on. The hawken has the four tubes inside the burn chamber that the gasses have to flow around before they are forced via restricter plate to the front then back up across the top to the chimney. I am not taking anything away from the hawken I just feel these 2 other stoves are more comparable to the hawken. I assume they will also be more expensive since they are both manufactured in Canada. Whatever boiler you buy just make sure you get logstor underground pipe or sprayed in place closed cell foam. Not cheap, but more important than any brand of stove you go with.
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woodman,
Before I had my first gasser, I had one that I built 5 years ago. It is a pipe-in-a-pipe design with a water baffle that was 4" from the bottom. It is force fed by by two blowers, one in the loading door and one in the rear. The air from the rear fan was routed through the exhaust to preheat the air, then injected just after the baffle where it was fire brick lined. Once the fire brick achieved a certain temperature, the smoke would ignite(with help from the heated rear fan air) and it would burn smoke free. I did what so many out there do before building one- in that I stole some efficiency ideas from a few of the better manufacturers and incorporated them in to mine. It is a very efficient boiler for what I had in to it. I would consistently use just half the wood that one of my friends used with his store bought boiler. We have close to the same heat load, me maybe a bit more, as insulation apparently wasn't very popular around the turn of the century.
Sounds like you've done a good job researching OWB's. By the way, where do you call home in our greatest of state's?
chadley,
There are those who will maintain that the gassers are a lot more work, but they tend to be the ones who've never owned one. In the long run, they are much less work, as the wood consumption is much less, and that's where the hard work is as far as I'm concerned. The maintenance work, however, does require more time. I have my brushes in the compartment on the back of my boiler, so when I decide to clean, everything's right handy, and I can easily do it in ten minutes once/week.
As far as what your Hawken dealer told you, I guess I'm hoping he wasn't referring to efficiency points. I'm sure he can't be, as that would be an untrue statement, to say the least. I have only seen one Hawken and it was at a farm show. Unless they've changed their burn chamber design in the last year or two, they will not come remotely close to any of the EPA gassers where efficiencies or emissions are concerned.
You must have misunderstood the part of my post where maintenance is concerned. As far as I know, all gassers out there require more maintenance than their conventional cousins. How much more I'm sure depends on the manufacturer. I've operated an Empyre 100 and my P&M 250, and I can assure you that maintenance is a cake walk.
On a more personal note: I wish you were a lot closer to me. You are way too cheap on your wood prices. At $65 for 3/4 cord, I'd probably never go to the woods again. 3/4 of cord of hardwood will sell for about $125 up here.
Sounds like you are on the right path regarding your first purchase. Do boat loads of research. I agree with merrelroofing and woodfuel in that you only want to do this every 20 years or so, so make your choice an educated one.
Marty
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I have only owned a gasser, and its been a short while - this past October. Cleaning takes me 15-20 minutes and now that its finally cold I am doing it once a week. When the weather was warmer I was doing it every 2 weeks. I found out this past weekend that a dirty gasser is not good. It smoked a lot more than I'm used to (but much less than non gassers i've seen) and it doesn't gas correctly.
Marty - I still want to chat with you sometime about my unit. Not sure what times are good for you during the week?
I'm home from work at 4:00 or so, so anytime after that.
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chadley,
From what I've read on the hearth forum, starting sometime in the year 2014, anyone owning an OWB that is not EPA phase 2 compliant will not be able to sell their property with an operational conventional OWB on it. In other words- if you plan on staying on your property for a significant period of time, than a conventional one may be alright for you, as you will be grandfathered in, but the OWB will need to be removed should you decide to sell. If the OWB is the only heat source, it's removal will obviously diminish property value a bit. They are saying that the implementation of the program will be nation wide. I'm not buying it totally until I see something from the EPA. I've sent them 2 email's in the last two weeks and I've not received any response.
Sorry for that ramble.
Back to your post now. Gassers, and from what I've read it doesn't matter much what brand, will burn around 40-45% less wood than the average conventional OWB, as much as 60% less than very inefficient OWB's, and about 30-40% less than some of the very efficient ones. They will burn wet wood, however efficiencies suffer a lot- but that is true of a conventional OWB also, and cleaning frequencies will be shortened with wet wood. Cleaning mine takes just under 10 minutes/week of my time. The gasification process has been around for nearly 200 years, and there are OWB company's out there that started making them back in the '90's, so the technology is not new, as the European's they have been using gassers(usually indoor ones) for more than 3 decades.
I think it's awesome that people are considering renewable resources to heat their homes. I started out with a conventional OWB about 5 years back, then moved to a gasser last year. At a month shy of 50, hauling 45% less wood home is much easier on these old bones, and although my neighbors had never complained about my conventional OWB, I feel much better that I'm not sending smoke in their direction anymore. I'd now never consider anything other than a gasser. Burning 5 or 6 cords/year is a lot better than going through 9 or 10....or 11. But, hey, I'm gettin' old.
Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?
I don't believe it..Just because you have a non epa working wood boiler or a non epa working woodstove, You can't sell your property??..That would be like saying you can't sell your house or building or property cause you have presence of asbestos or lead or a working out house that is grandfathered due to a older house..
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Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?
[/quote] I don't believe it..Just because you have a non epa working wood boiler or a non epa working woodstove, You can't sell your property??..That would be like saying you can't sell your house or building or property cause you have presence of asbestos or lead or a working out house that is grandfathered due to a older house..
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i can believe that, insurance companies and banks rule the roost. i bought a propertie a few years back and it had oil heat. before i could get insurance the furnace ahd to be checked and the manufactures date on the external oil tank. the oil tank was six years old. in order to get insurance the seller had to provide me with a new tank as you can not insure a newly aquired house here in ontario with a tank older than five years and you can not get a mortgage without proof of insurance. i am not sure but i think if you are selling a business (perhaps a house as well) you ahve to have an envirenmental evaluation done as well for the mortgage company. to sell a house with asbestos may fall under that rule i dont know
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Not trying to hijack the thread but, I am curious what kind of owb martyinmi had before the gasser?
I don't believe it..Just because you have a non epa working wood boiler or a non epa working woodstove, You can't sell your property??..That would be like saying you can't sell your house or building or property cause you have presence of asbestos or lead or a working out house that is grandfathered due to a older house..
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i can believe that, insurance companies and banks rule the roost. i bought a propertie a few years back and it had oil heat. before i could get insurance the furnace ahd to be checked and the manufactures date on the external oil tank. the oil tank was six years old. in order to get insurance the seller had to provide me with a new tank as you can not insure a newly aquired house here in ontario with a tank older than five years and you can not get a mortgage without proof of insurance. i am not sure but i think if you are selling a business (perhaps a house as well) you ahve to have an envirenmental evaluation done as well for the mortgage company. to sell a house with asbestos may fall under that rule i dont know
[/quote]Im not talking about insurance.. EPA which is federal..Im talking about..Insurance companies can make there own rules...I can shop around for different insurances..Ive heard that some insurances won't insure a house cause of a indoor wood stove....When buying a house here in the states you need a inspector if a bank is involved , which protects the buyer and the bank..Its not law at least in my state to have insurance..In fact there is no manitory auto ins law, no seatbelt law over 18.....The bank makes you have insurance if you borrow money.... I highly doubt after 2014 because I have a non EPA approve boiler and a non EPA approved wood stove in my basement .. That Id never be able to sell my house if I decide to for some reason...
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Chadley,
Lots of good 1st hand advice here. I was in the same place as you about a year ago. I chose a Natures Comfort 325G. It is an up draft style gasification boiler which is not finicky about what is burned; it handles green or seasoned wood. It also burns coal very well. It met the threshold for the $1500.00 tax credit offered at the time I bought it. It has worked flawlessly and does not require the maintenance that others do. When mine gets a little gummed up I throw in a little coal and that cleans her out! At the current temps here teens and upper 20s I can go 24 hours on a full load heating 3600 ft. The house is not insulated well and we keep it at 75 degrees. That would also be using blow down red pine for fuel. I have not cut any live trees since I got the boiler, just cleaning up my woods. We had a lot of scattered red pine in our woods that blew down several winters ago. This boiler will make good BTU's out of any wood that will fit through the door. If it holds together enough to be thrown in she will burn it! Of course the better quality of wood you burn the better your results will be. If you sell wood this boiler will burn all the junk you can’t sell leaving the good wood for $ in your pocket. Give the 325G a look!
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im not saying a cash buyer can't buy your house with a non gasser but i would think that if your state makes it law that you can not buy or burn a non gasser in your state that very soon they may consider that if you buy a home with a non gasser on teh property you are in fact buying that stove and that is not lawful. now maybe all you ahve to do is unhook it so it is not in operation and that would be lawful. also in todays market there are not many folks who could pay cash for a home that would even consider burning wood
if the EPA says no gassers allowed for sale in that state, i am certain the mortgage and insurance companies will jump all over that.
i know here in ontario right now indoor wood stoves are still allowed but if you have one it is an automatic 50 dollar surcharge on the bill. as far as new laws being passed by comunnities, one is no outdoor boiler may be nearer to a neighbors property line than 300 feet and not closer to any neighbours residance that 600 feet..pretty much means none allowed in any "built up area.
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im not saying a cash buyer can't buy your house with a non gasser but i would think that if your state makes it law that you can not buy or burn a non gasser in your state that very soon they may consider that if you buy a home with a non gasser on teh property you are in fact buying that stove and that is not lawful. now maybe all you ahve to do is unhook it so it is not in operation and that would be lawful. also in todays market there are not many folks who could pay cash for a home that would even consider burning wood
if the EPA says no gassers allowed for sale in that state, i am certain the mortgage and insurance companies will jump all over that.
i know here in ontario right now indoor wood stoves are still allowed but if you have one it is an automatic 50 dollar surcharge on the bill. as far as new laws being passed by comunnities, one is no outdoor boiler may be nearer to a neighbors property line than 300 feet and not closer to any neighbours residance that 600 feet..pretty much means none allowed in any "built up area.
My state is a EPA phase 2 state only as a couple of yrs ago.. The OWB is grandfathered..Weather I own the house or not..Perfectly legal..It was bought before the EPA law..Dont see how a mortgage or a insurance company can do anything about it..Maybe its different in Canada..
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Matty,
The article was from one of EPA's Burn Wise sites. It outlined what is happening in a couple of the eastern states right now(I don't remember which ones), as well as Washington and Oregon(?) and explained the efforts they are putting forth to eventually include every state. They have hundreds of pages to sift through, and if you have the time, you can find it. It was marked on the hearth forum, so I clicked on it and read through it. I did not bookmark it, but If I run across it again, I'll pm it to you.
Rest assured that events like the one I mentioned are happening on a small scale right now, and it will get worse. Two things are precipitating these events and they both begin with the letter M- Money and Monopoly. Scott7m lightly touched on these issues a while back.
If you get a chance, contact the DEQ in your state about this issue.
Sorry for the hijack, chadley.
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[[/quote] My state is a EPA phase 2 state only as a couple of yrs ago.. The OWB is grandfathered..Weather I own the house or not..Perfectly legal..It was bought before the EPA law..Dont see how a mortgage or a insurance company can do anything about it..Maybe its different in Canada..
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so far there is no law here about outlawing the non gassers and my insurance company has nothing to say about them except that it mast be a certain distance from the residence (i believe it is 60 feet) and that the shed i put mine in (yes it is a home made OWB in a shed) is not covered by my policy but i could buy a rider on it ( i did not)
as for your epa grandfathering the boiler, well it may well never change but in ontario here if you have one insurance company they are all the same and in a 'silent partnership with each other)" if you go to another insurance quote the first thing they ask you is who are you currently insured with (now they will check you out) then they will ask you why you want to switch (they dont really care they just want to see if you tell them a lie (or forget to mention something they will get from your insurance company when they check you out)
i talked to one insurance guy who said that no insurance company can now tell you they wont sell you insurance but they will make your premium so high you cant afford them. ontario is the worst place to try and get insurance. i wish you well with selling yoru home and OWB if you ever choose to do so but remember insurance is big business and big business changes the rules when ever they like im not sure about the USA but when the war started income tax here in Canada was only temporary to support the war effort! HA
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My state is a EPA phase 2 state only as a couple of yrs ago.. The OWB is grandfathered..Weather I own the house or not..Perfectly legal..It was bought before the EPA law..Dont see how a mortgage or a insurance company can do anything about it..Maybe its different in Canada..
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so far there is no law here about outlawing the non gassers and my insurance company has nothing to say about them except that it mast be a certain distance from the residence (i believe it is 60 feet) and that the shed i put mine in (yes it is a home made OWB in a shed) is not covered by my policy but i could buy a rider on it ( i did not)
as for your epa grandfathering the boiler, well it may well never change but in ontario here if you have one insurance company they are all the same and in a 'silent partnership with each other)" if you go to another insurance quote the first thing they ask you is who are you currently insured with (now they will check you out) then they will ask you why you want to switch (they dont really care they just want to see if you tell them a lie (or forget to mention something they will get from your insurance company when they check you out)
i talked to one insurance guy who said that no insurance company can now tell you they wont sell you insurance but they will make your premium so high you cant afford them. ontario is the worst place to try and get insurance. i wish you well with selling yoru home and OWB if you ever choose to do so but remember insurance is big business and big business changes the rules when ever they like im not sure about the USA but when the war started income tax here in Canada was only temporary to support the war effort! HA
[/quote] I don't plan on selling my house..I was just using it as a example..But your never know lol..Yeah your right insurance companies is big business..Biggest fraud companies out there lol..Huh no kidding, temp. Income tax..Least it was only temp..
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Is it groundhog day? I feel I'm reading the same thing over and over! Maybe you guys should try the reply button instead of the quote button? :bag:
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perhaps :) and it is only about a month away
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Hey matty,
If you get a chance, google this: DEQ AIR QUALITY DIVISION HEAT SMART
This isn't the one I was referring to, but it shows what's coming!
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Do you folks seriously not see the govt is out to control every aspect of our lives??? There is more to marty's claims than he's mentioning, there is also such proposed legislation that would block the sell of any property which isn't up to code. Like if the govt says your walls have to be r19, and there not then you can't sell it. If they say you have to have a 18 seer ac and you don't have one or want one, well your gonna pay through the teeth....
This country is hell bent on giving up every liberty that our revolution was fought for. It won't be long until you won't recognize this as the country where you grew up. We have a constitution and a bill of rights that instead of being protected, is attacked and dismantled every day. Without our constitution we aren nothing, definetly not America.
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I would choose gassification for a few reasons:
1. less smoke
2. less wood
3. less work
4. I am more proud showing off the system as I know it is polluting less than most indoor wood heat products and all conventional boilers that I can smell driving to work each day.
If I had to do it over I would choose gassification again.
mgw44
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NOT TO START AN ARGUMENT but 3# is not accurate.
It takes more work to operate a gasifier than it takes to operate a non gasser. Otherwise I agree with your points.
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Hey matty,
If you get a chance, google this: DEQ AIR QUALITY DIVISION HEAT SMART
This isn't the one I was referring to, but it shows what's coming!
Thanks for the link!
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It takes more work to operate a gasifier than it takes to operate a non gasser. Otherwise I agree with your points.
If cutting less wood to run my gasser is more work ! what was i thinking. :bash:
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Do you folks seriously not see the govt is out to control every aspect of our lives??? There is more to marty's claims than he's mentioning, there is also such proposed legislation that would block the sell of any property which isn't up to code. Like if the govt says your walls have to be r19, and there not then you can't sell it. If they say you have to have a 18 seer ac and you don't have one or want one, well your gonna pay through the teeth....
This country is hell bent on giving up every liberty that our revolution was fought for. It won't be long until you won't recognize this as the country where you grew up. We have a constitution and a bill of rights that instead of being protected, is attacked and dismantled every day. Without our constitution we aren nothing, definetly not America.
I don't recognize it now.
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im not sure about the USA but when the war started income tax here in Canada was only temporary to support the war effort! HA
I know the feeling !
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if cutting less wood to run my gasser is more work ! what was i thinking. :bash:
Well, I agree with Ridge. For what you may save in cutting you surely out work me to "prep" your wood to a certain size or shape, so it doesn't "bridge" in your boiler. And the uglies, knots, clumps that you either cut into little pieces or don't use at all, my boiler loves and burns for days on. Then add to that brushing the HX tubes regularly, cleaning out ash more often to insure that no air holes are plugged up......Don't get me wrong, Gassers are more efficient, smoke less and do use less wood...BUT less "work" they are not. ;)
BTW, I had a gasser which did work well but was too small for my application, so I've been there.
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Can you explain the "prep" work that needs to be done on the wood that you are referring to? Are the fireboxes smaller on gassers? What do you mean when you say "bridge"?
I'm looking at people who say they burn 6-7 cords per year and think to myself that is probably big chunks. I cut, split and sold 15 cords this year (and have a little left) into pieces about the size of my leg or a bit smaller. Getting 6-7 cords of "logs" or bigger peices will be a cake walk compared to what I've been doing to sell wood. A whole lot less prep work in the wood area.
Is there a difference between the gasser and non gasser in the wood it will burn. I hear some say the gassers won't burn green or wet wood. What about the size of the wood? Will either burn whole logs or do they need to be split? I was thinking I could just throw a couple whole logs in without splitting...? If I had to, I could just quarter them. Just wondering. Thanks for all your help.
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Well, I agree with Ridge. For what you may save in cutting you surely out work me to "prep" your wood to a certain size or shape, so it doesn't "bridge" in your boiler. And the uglies, knots, clumps that you either cut into little pieces or don't use at all, my boiler loves and burns for days on. Then add to that brushing the HX tubes regularly, cleaning out ash more often to insure that no air holes are plugged up......Don't get me wrong, Gassers are more efficient, smoke less and do use less wood...BUT less "work" they are not.
BTW, I had a gasser which did work well but was too small for my application, so I've been there.
no special "prep" for a garn style boiler, bridge problem? don't think so.uglies,knots,clumps&stumps, it don't care. if it fits thru an 18" diameter door it'll burn. HX tubes once a year=30 min. the ash pretty much takes care of itself as it travels thru the heat exchanger at 600 cfm and dumps itself into a 55 Gal. drum outside. but i will say it's alot of work riding my golf cart out to my nice warm shop every other day to build a fire that will last for 4 hrs. to heat 1450 gals. of water back up to 205* ;)
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chadley,
The only extra "prep" that we encounter would be the diameter of the wood, and possibly the length. I split anything over 7" in half, just like I did with my conventional boiler, and the maximum length I can put in mine is a bit over 30". My splitter will only handle 25" anyway,and large rounds are not efficient in either style, as they tend to burn too slow and smoke too much.
I've never encountered any bridging with either of the gassers I've owned, although some manufacturers designs do lend themselves to bridging. In fact, with my Portage and Main, I just throw it in any old way, crotches, knots, bark, etc.,and as long as I don't let the coal bed level get down too low, it will start burning gas right away every time. I do stir the coals every other day to keep the fine ash from acting as an insulator and allowing the refractory to cool down too much, but I did that with my conventional boiler also, and it's only a 30 second job. Cleaning tubes and ash takes 10 minutes/week.
Burning wet wood is bound to be a touchy subject, so I'll tread lightly here. Wet wood equals cooler, smokier, less efficient burns in either a conventional or a gasser. Both of the gassers I've owned will burn wood that is not seasoned properly(seasoned wood is 20% moisture content). I was a bit behind last year and burned some that was a over 30%- actually some of it was close to 40%(not real proud of myself there), and the gasser functioned flawlessly. The exchange tubes simply needed more frequent attention.
The hardest part of burning wood, for myself anyway, is the cutting, bucking, hauling, splitting and stacking. Every time I go to the woods to cut wood, I have about one hour just in road time, plus another few hours of felling, dragging, bucking, and loading just to bring home 1/2 - 3/4 cord of wood, then I split and stack. I always take care of all my brush when I'm done, so I probably take a lot longer than most to process my wood. I usually do it on a Saturday after working all week, and I am physically tired when I'm done. Now instead of spending 15-20 Saturdays/ year gathering wood, I can get buy with 8 or 10. My 10 year old son loves the gasser too, as he is my wood stacker, and it's about half the work for him every year.
Which ever style you choose, I'd encourage you to keep something very important in mind- only burn well seasoned wood. You being friendly to your neighbors and your environment is a win-win for us all. There are a handful of irresponsible OWB users out there that are giving us all a bad name, and soon enough all of us will pay for it.
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I sell firewood on the side and throw all of the ugly stuff into seperate piles. Always had trouble getting rid of it until I got an OWB this fall - a gassification unit. From the last weekend in Oct until the first week in January I only burned short, long, ugly, knotty, punky (but dry) stuff. Never had any issues with bridging. It just burned it up. So it really was almost 2 and half months of truly free wood.
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okay. what exactly is bridging? I feel like a 5 year old that asks too many questions. ;D but this whole OWB thing is completely new to me. Ironically, I've dealt with firewood for years; just didn't know anything about OWB's. Sorry if I'm a nuisance.
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Bridging is when you stock your OWF and the bottom of the pile burns out while the rest is stuck in a "bridge" over the hot ashes.
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okay. what exactly is bridging? I feel like a 5 year old that asks too many questions. ;D but this whole OWB thing is completely new to me. Ironically, I've dealt with firewood for years; just didn't know anything about OWB's. Sorry if I'm a nuisance.
chadley,
You have to understand how a downdraft gasifier works before you can understand what bridging is. If you google 'down draft gasifier', you'll be able to watch dozens of videos of many different gasifiers in action. A down draft gasifier burns wood at the very bottom of it's primary burn chamber. The chamber is either force fed with a blower, or a draft inducer on the exhaust is used to create a vacuum. The smoke from combustion is either pushed or pulled through a nozzle in the bottom of the burn chamber where it is ignited by extreme heat. The burning smoke(gas) looks like a torpedo heater pointed downward while the boiler is in operation. Since the fire burns from the very bottom, that is the first place from which wood is depleted. This can lead to a big hole or hollow void under the rest of the wood. If the wood doesn't fall down over the nozzle, then the fire can possibly go out. This is termed "bridging".
It's hard to explain the gasification process and the effects of bridging. If you view a few videos it will all make perfect sense.
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chadley,
From what I've read on the hearth forum, starting sometime in the year 2014, anyone owning an OWB that is not EPA phase 2 compliant will not be able to sell their property with an operational conventional OWB on it. In other words- if you plan on staying on your property for a significant period of time, than a conventional one may be alright for you, as you will be grandfathered in, but the OWB will need to be removed should you decide to sell. If the OWB is the only heat source, it's removal will obviously diminish property value a bit. They are saying that the implementation of the program will be nation wide. I'm not buying it totally until I see something from the EPA. I've sent them 2 email's in the last two weeks and I've not received any response.
Sorry for that ramble.
Back to your post now. Gassers, and from what I've read it doesn't matter much what brand, will burn around 40-45% less wood than the average conventional OWB, as much as 60% less than very inefficient OWB's, and about 30-40% less than some of the very efficient ones. They will burn wet wood, however efficiencies suffer a lot- but that is true of a conventional OWB also, and cleaning frequencies will be shortened with wet wood. Cleaning mine takes just under 10 minutes/week of my time. The gasification process has been around for nearly 200 years, and there are OWB company's out there that started making them back in the '90's, so the technology is not new, as the European's they have been using gassers(usually indoor ones) for more than 3 decades.
I think it's awesome that people are considering renewable resources to heat their homes. I started out with a conventional OWB about 5 years back, then moved to a gasser last year. At a month shy of 50, hauling 45% less wood home is much easier on these old bones, and although my neighbors had never complained about my conventional OWB, I feel much better that I'm not sending smoke in their direction anymore. I'd now never consider anything other than a gasser. Burning 5 or 6 cords/year is a lot better than going through 9 or 10....or 11. But, hey, I'm gettin' old.
Hopefully, some blow hard politician will actually abolish the EPA before this comes to fruition.
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thanks martyinmi. That post was helpful. My local hawken dealer claims that the gassers are not much more efficient than the non gassers. he says maybe 2 or 3 points which brings me to my first question. What do the "points" transfer into laymens terms? Second, why would he try to sell me a lower priced unit? The hawken GX 10 is around 8 and the HE 2100 is around 7200 (quoted). Last, I've been told there is a lot more maintenance to gassers which kind of goes against what you were saying about less cleaning time. What are your opinions on maintenance between the two?
Thanks. You all have been helpful.
Hello Chadley
Your dealer is probably trying to sell a non gasser because he knows that they are going to be outlawed soon in all states and he is going to be stuck with them. I love my CB e 1450 it takes me 10-15 minutes for a good cleaning whenever I reload the firebox with wood I open the the slot around the charge tube to make sure it gets good air flow around the the charge tube and IM good takes a extra 20 seconds and Im good and close door I cant comment on a non gasser never had one. The only thing that I think could be better would be the bigger firebox where you could really load up and be good for days if you had to leave for a emergency for 3-4 days I dont think I could make it more than 24 hours on mine without a reload at 10 degrees outside Jack
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Jack,
I could see your point but the non gasser he's trying to sell me doesn't fall in our EPA regulations because it is industrial/commercial (10,000 btu) so those will be around for a long while unless the industrial sized non gassers become regulated like the current non gassers.
Now on the other hand, Hardy is trying to sell me an H4 because of the reason you just mentioned. They have 5 in stock and can't sell them anymore after March in our state. He's marked them down to 5100 to try and get rid of them. He tried telling me that the new gassers would make my money back b/c they would cost too much. I know exactly what he is trying to do. ;)
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chadley,
Could you possibly post of pm a contact on this dealer that is offering them for 5100. Wonder if it would be worth it with shipping? to South Mo
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Gassification vs. non gassification, some states require certain types... but what ever you do, just don't believe what they say on their web page... Regardless of your heating needs, Hawken Energy has a solution! Choose from our complete product line to heat any building, and meet your other heating needs. There is no heating need or problem that we cannot solve."
Well they can't seem to solve my 6 hour burn time... and they say that my house heating system is wrong and it has to be redone... well it has been that way for over 90 years, how all of a sudden is it no good.... the oil furnace still heats the house, but the Hawken GX10 can't... PROBLEM!
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:post: