Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: d conover on March 07, 2012, 07:36:47 AM
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Has anyone used ozarkbiomassfurnace.com's 4 line insulated pex? They make it themselves here in Missouri.
Talked to a super nice lady at the factory yesterday.
they are also this place.
www.outdoorwoodfurnaceparts.com (http://www.outdoorwoodfurnaceparts.com)
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I can't find it listed on either of your links. What type of insulation do they use?
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Most 4 line I've seen looks pretty crappy
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Most 4 line I've seen looks pretty crappy
What do you think of this?
(http://www.rsiboilers.com/pics/ez444%20001.jpg)
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Most 4 line I've seen looks pretty crappy
What do you think of this?
(http://www.rsiboilers.com/pics/ez444%20001.jpg)
By far the best I've ever seen
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Whats the price on it if you dont mind, i am also in Missuouri
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Looks like Badger 5 wrap. I paid 8.19 per foot shipped for the 4 line.
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Looks like Badger 5 wrap. I paid 8.19 per foot shipped for the 4 line.
How many feet did you get?
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I saw Logstor true 1" closed cell at the farm show that looks a lot like Thermo-Pex, only bigger. That stuff looks incredible! Over 13$/ft.
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I saw Logstor true 1" closed cell at the farm show that looks a lot like Thermo-Pex, only bigger. That stuff looks incredible! Over 13$/ft.
I put in 140ish feet of logstor. $10.50 ft :bash: but i don't regret it. Very little heat loss.
When house isn't calling for heat i have about a 3 degree heat loss from supply to return @ woodburner from the following:
140 feet of logstor= 280 ft
60 feet of 1" pex in house
Side arm dhw
Water to air H.E.
All being pushed by taco 007 which will be switch out by something more efficient when it dies.
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I am guessing you guys don't like the foam filled?
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Looks like Badger 5 wrap. I paid 8.19 per foot shipped for the 4 line.
How many feet did you get?
I purchased 90 ft. of line. Run is 80 ft. and the manufacturer suggested adding 5 ft. extra for each end of the run. Spendy enough but it is an excellent product.
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I am guessing you guys don't like the foam filled?
I'm not a huge fan. Badger claims there 5wrap retains even better.
I get interested in it from time to time, had a salesman spend 3 hours workin me over to start using logstor, the numbers he showed me werent as good as the 5 wrap and my cost was over double the 5 wrap.
The real success story with foam filled is the marketing machine central boiler, they can make anything sound great. However both pipe can fail if it gets a leak, that's why proper installation to me is wayyyyy more important than choosing between 2 quality lines. Someone said if the logstor gets a hole on it you can't hardly get it out of the ditch because it soaks up so much water
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I don't want to start a pi$$ match , logostor is made from closed cell insulation. Closed cell insulation won't soak up water. I actually took some of the insulation when i was trimming mine and put in a bucket of water because i was curious about this also. No weight change.
All that set aside we are all trying to accomplish the same thing minimal heat loss.
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How long did you have it in the water? Several different people have told me that it does soak up water. The only explanation I can think of is it gets hairline cracks in the foam from being rolled and unrolled and water channels through them.
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I've had my ThermoPex in the ground for 5-6 years, and I think it is getting waterlogged. 3 weeks ago when we got about a 1/2 inch of snow I had about 30' on the boiler end that the snow melted about as quick as it hit the ground. That has never happened before. My wood consumption should be going down a lot more than it is with this warmer weather. I'd have never guessed that would or could have been an issue. The ThermoPex WILL be coming out of the ground this spring.
My question for you guru's- can I pull it out of the ground, then stuff it in some 6" pvc, put it back in the trench, and then build a 1' box around it with blue-board like Dean187 did? Or is that stuff junk once it is waterlogged?
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I've had my ThermoPex in the ground for 5-6 years, and I think it is getting waterlogged. 3 weeks ago when we got about a 1/2 inch of snow I had about 30' on the boiler end that the snow melted about as quick as it hit the ground. That has never happened before. My wood consumption should be going down a lot more than it is with this warmer weather. I'd have never guessed that would or could have been an issue. The ThermoPex WILL be coming out of the ground this spring.
My question for you guru's- can I pull it out of the ground, then stuff it in some 6" pvc, put it back in the trench, and then build a 1' box around it with blue-board like Dean187 did? Or is that stuff junk once it is waterlogged?
I would think it's junk after it's water logged... Thats the problem I've heard of logstor, apparently thermopex too.
The thing I like about 5 wrap is 5 radiant barriers around the pipe.
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I don't want to start a pi$$ match , logostor is made from closed cell insulation. Closed cell insulation won't soak up water. I actually took some of the insulation when i was trimming mine and put in a bucket of water because i was curious about this also. No weight change.
All that set aside we are all trying to accomplish the same thing minimal heat loss.
The foam breaks down over time, of course it likely won't change weight in a few hours or days. But a guy from logstor himself told me it loses 10% of it's efficiency in the first year. They said that process was slowed down by a membrane they use now just under the skin of the pipe
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Styrofoam is closed cell and I have removed it from roofs and it will hold water and when it does it gets very heavy and don't release it very quick.
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cut and paste from a manufacture's site...Title was...is th is foam water resistant (closed cell type)
below is the cut and paste
Yes, but with the following caveat. The foams that we sell are considered closed-cell, which means that each cell that makes up the foam structure is completely closed off from surrounding cells which prevents it from acting like a sponge. It is completely safe for this foam to be in contact with water for hours/days/weeks and even months with no adverse effects. However, it should never be submerged in contact with water permanently. Over a period of years the water contact can begin to soften the foam and cause it to lose its closed-cell status. This foam is designed primarily to be used as an insurance policy in case of damage/holes that could cause a vessel to lose buoyancy. Pinhole sized openings would essentially have no effect on the foam since the amount of exposure is so minimal but you should always make repairs as soon as possible to keep the foam effectiveness as good as possible. This will be the case with all after market closed-cell polyurethane foams and even manufacturer installed foams.
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I seen a nice pex connection at the OWB. There was a leak for some time, running right down ( vertically) the exposed pipe and into the insulated line. The end of the insul pex was not sealed and being exposed, even rain or snow could have gotten to it. Uponor Ecoflex Thermo pipe and insulation doesn't get waterlogged, if your pipe doesn't have a 50 year warranty and guarantee then you might want to keep looking. Many knock off pipes make claims but have NO warranty or guarantee. Always look for ASTM approved materials
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I use pipe covers, it's a rubber boot/seal that slides over the supply and return on the back of the stove and slides snugly over the drain tile. It keeps drips or possible leaks from leaking into the pex package.
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Interesting thread.
I only soaked for a couple of days. Marty i'd be curious to know if you find anything with your pipe when you dig it up.
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I use pipe covers, it's a rubber boot/seal that slides over the supply and return on the back of the stove and slides snugly over the drain tile. It keeps drips or possible leaks from leaking into the pex package.
I used silicone to completely seal the end of the tile in case of a leak at the stove. A leak could run right down the pex pipe and fill the tile in short order. Where can a person get the pipe covers?
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Badger started sending covers with all the 2 line pipe last fall.
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My pipe came with solid covers but didn't think to adapt them for the installation.
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There are markings on them for different size pipe. You are supposed to cut them at the right line and slide over the pex.
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There are markings on them for different size pipe. You are supposed to cut them at the right line and slide over the pex.
Thank you.....Seems like we learn something every day from this site!
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The covers I use are soft rubber and fit over the pipe tightly, it seals it actually
Looks like 2 big cow tits lol
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http://www.uponorpro.com/Technical-Support/Specs-and-Submittals.aspx (http://www.uponorpro.com/Technical-Support/Specs-and-Submittals.aspx)
Here are some good ones, just verify size per your application.
Just a few tests for the bubble wrap
Failure to meet
UL 181 specified use description per labeling
ASTM C518 or C177 insulation rated claims were only 1.1 R
Use as a thermal barrier failed UL 1715 & UL 1040
Max claimed temp of 180* but failure recorded at 120*
Much of the product not labeled or not labeled correctly to UL or ASTM standards
Something to verify before purchase per application
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I think spray foam in the pipe is the way to go.
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When it comes to pex and plumbing I know that uponor is top notch material, I'd say hydronix knows what he's talking about
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I have now had Central Boilers Thermopex in the ground for 7 years. Buried with only 6 inches of dirt over the top, where the ground freezes 4-5 feet deep in Central MN. Zero heat loss and Zero melting over the line. 90 feet from boiler to my house. You can't beat a urethane delivery line. Yeah, it costs a little more and is kind of a bear to handle, but once you have it in the trench, you won't have to deal with it again. Well worth the cost IMO.
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Do a search on foam types and ratings. You will find CFC and non-CFC and many other types of materials. The good stuff is not used much anymore because of the chemical dangers some claim. There is very good spray foam out there, just make sure you know what your getting. Most foams loose there R value ( called thermal drift) usually a few % but up to 50% or break down over time when the important gases leach out. It all depends on the installers mix and what type of chemicals he is using. They are finding that 2" rigid foam board they used to put on the exterior of foundations or basement walls is breaking down and becoming water logged in some cases where builder bob tried to save a buck. In order for you to verify what your paying for, you can request a MSDS sheet. Its called Thermal Drift and there is some info here, I'm trying to find a chart that had the many different types of spray foam, closed cell,open etc.
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11700 (http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11700)
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11510 (http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11510)
In the end you get what you pay for, and it is so true for these Header supply lines. In big industrial applications, check out Dritherm. If you can find a feasable supplier, you might be able to salvage what you have already
http://dritherm.com/ (http://dritherm.com/)
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Hydronix,
The pipe I'm considering has a continuous 6mil polypropylene shell with a foam center. What do you think? I'm guessing if water can't get in I will be fine. I was going to add another layer of sealed 6mil poly wrap...any thoughts?
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Hydronix,
The pipe I'm considering has a continuous 6mil polypropylene shell with a foam center. What do you think? I'm guessing if water can't get in I will be fine. I was going to add another layer of sealed 6mil poly wrap...any thoughts?
What I think,,,,,, would be nothing more than a guess until we see some pix and manufacturer specs. Everyone likes pictures
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Flexsul-Seal Specs
Exterior skin consists of 50 mil Polyethylene Corrugated Tubing
Exterior skin complies with ASTM F405-97 for H.D. tubing
All Pex Tubing Meets Applicable Standards.
Color Coded Pex Tube Available
¾" & 1" PEX-AL-PEX Available
¾" - 1" - 1 ¼" Pex Tube Available
Thermal Insulation Properties
Operating Range:
-297 degree F to 220 degree F
>90 % Closed Cell
.02 % Water Absorption by volume
.10 Water Vapor Permeability
Passes Flame Spread of 25 as tested by ASTM E 84
Meets requirements of ASTM C 411 for Hot Surface performance of High Temperature Thermal Insulation
R-Value = 6 per inch
Non-Porous, Non Fibrous Insulation resists mold growth
3 lb/ft — 6 lb/ft Density
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Here's a pic of the pipe.
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I plan on putting this in 6 mil poly tubing to give it some extra protection then surround the pipe with sand then soil. Is this a good idea? Or do you guys just back fill with soil?
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If all the data is accurate according to their website, then yes this appears to be a very good pipe. I don't know if I would ever choose the 4 pipe version tho. The important data is in the chart that shows gpm/water temp/temp differential/feet. That is the important spec info when comparing different brands. I have seen one test where they shoved 25gpm thru at over 30' per second, and of course the temp loss was little. As soon as you slowed it down to 4gpm the loss went up 14 degrees over the same 100' of pipe. Then there was a test where they didn't put 170-180 degree water thru and it was under summertime ambient temps. They had 5gpm or less flow but not boiler like temp conditions. A thermal imager inspection would see whats going on, but you almost never see those images.