Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: gandgracing on October 08, 2012, 10:53:53 PM
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I installed this on the cold side of the water heater and was gonna just leave the pilot on incase the boiler would cool off sometime and I wouldn't have the wife throwing a fit. I also thought I would have a problem with the water being to hot. Well the water doesn't seem that hot and really not that different than before. And after I take a shower the burner is fired up on the water heater. Not sure whats the problem. I couldn't imagine if I turned the pilot off. The boiler comes in on the bottom left and out the top above it. The house water comes in from the bottom as well and into the water heater on the cold side.
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w446/gandgracing/D3F9CA35-70F2-4E80-8574-D1CAC0054FB8-4083-00000570C14BB7D4.jpg)
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Is that a 4x12 inch 10 plate? What is the model of the pump you are running and how many feet of pex to you have total?
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I got the exchanger from a friend who decided to not use it. I looked it up and it's a WP 22 Series, 3.5x12, 10 plate with 1" ports. I measured about 230' of pex round trip using an Armstrong Astro 30 pump.
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The flows must be opposite of one another. Boiler in bottom and cold goin in top or vice versa
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If I read it right you need to have the flow thru the exchanger going in opposite directions.boiler in on bottom out the top the cold water should come in the top and out the bottom.
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If you don't have a recirc. line, you won't be storing any hot water in the tank, the way you have it piped. Also, like the other guys said it looks like the exc. is piped incorrectly too.
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I installed this on the cold side of the water heater and was gonna just leave the pilot on incase the boiler would cool off sometime and I wouldn't have the wife throwing a fit. I also thought I would have a problem with the water being to hot. Well the water doesn't seem that hot and really not that different than before. And after I take a shower the burner is fired up on the water heater. Not sure whats the problem. I couldn't imagine if I turned the pilot off. The boiler comes in on the bottom left and out the top above it. The house water comes in from the bottom as well and into the water heater on the cold side.
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w446/gandgracing/D3F9CA35-70F2-4E80-8574-D1CAC0054FB8-4083-00000570C14BB7D4.jpg)
Simply check, is the water good and hot going into the tank when you run the hot water? You do need to swap the flow though as stated above. it still should work though, just not efficiently.
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If there is no hot water being used, the water in the tank will cool. Then you have to push the water heated from the exc. thru the dip tube and thru the cooled water in the tank. If there is no recirculation keeping the water in the tank hot, you may as well put the exchanger above the hot outlet, and use it as an instantaneous heater....
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Turn on a hot faucet (preferably bathtub or other high flow place) and then go feel the pipes.
My guess is the pipe coming out of the tank will be much hotter that the one going in. Also the boiler line out of the plate will probably be about the same temperature as the pipe feeding in to the water heater tank.
If it is doing what I said above you have 3 options to make it work right.
Easiest is to just replace it with a 5x12 20 or 30 plate
next easiest is to get a much larger pump.
another but probably not the best option would be to put in on a secondary loop and add another pump that only pumps through the plate.
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RSI is correct, the heat exchanger is too small for what you are trying to do. Ive used 20 and 30 plates and the 30's are the best by far.
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I use 20 plates with 1" ports. Never once had an issue, no idea why you tried to plumb it that way.
It might be best if they flow opposite but def not a must.
Yoder dont you use 3/4" 30 plates tho?
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The reason I plumbed it that way was cause it was labeled already by someone. I figured my buddy had got it from a dealer and they labeled it to what pipe went where. I know I've seen people put it on the cold water side of the water heater( on this site ).
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I heated my water one whole winter with a 10, I never worry about which way the water is flowing.
I wanted to switch to a 20, it was a little hotter, but not a huge difference I could tell
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Which side of the water heater was it on, hot or cold?
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I heated my water one whole winter with a 10, I never worry about which way the water is flowing.
I wanted to switch to a 20, it was a little hotter, but not a huge difference I could tell
How many feet of pex on the boiler side and what pump were you running?
It you have a pump that can do 30 or 40' of head you can get by with a 10 plate
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I heated my water one whole winter with a 10, I never worry about which way the water is flowing.
I wanted to switch to a 20, it was a little hotter, but not a huge difference I could tell
How many feet of pex on the boiler side and what pump were you running?
It you have a pump that can do 30 or 40' of head you can get by with a 10 plate
That was the case, it was one of the nc pumps that came on the stove. Do they do around 30 on high?
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I believe they do 39'
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Ok so I'm gonna switch the domestic water on the exchanger and then hook it up on the hot water side of the water heater. Do I also need to make a bypass to go around the heat exchanger for the summer months when the boiler isn't being used or do you guys just keep going through it?
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I am using a 5x12 ten plate off a taco 0011 pump dumping in to my water heater. Boiler is at 170 and my water is over 140 at the tap even after not being used all day. I do have mine plumbed with water flowing in opposite directions.
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Ok so I'm gonna switch the domestic water on the exchanger and then hook it up on the hot water side of the water heater. Do I also need to make a bypass to go around the heat exchanger for the summer months when the boiler isn't being used or do you guys just keep going through it?
That won't work...... It needs to be in the cold side so that you have all that hot water in storage. Your hot water will vary a lot doing it like that
You would be much better off to get a 1" 20 plate and do it right..
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If you do it correctly on the cold side you'll never have valves to turn or make bypasses as the water will flow through it the same in the summer as it does now, it just won't be preheated
You likely have to slow of a flow of water for a 10 plate to work properly, 10 plates really restrict flow, that's why I recommended the 20, your gpm would increase and your make everything work better
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Ok I guess I do need a 20 or 30 plate. My wife took a long hot shower today and I went to check out the heat exchanger and the line going to the water heater was nice and cold. Boiler lines were real hot though.
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Both boiler lines were hot?
I didn't expect to hear that. A normal 5x10 10 plate will usually make plenty of DHW if it can get enough boiler flow to keep up.
Which way is the boiler water flowing?
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This isn't making any sense at all....
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i agree with RSI IF the boiler water going into your exchanger is hot AND the boiler water leaving your exchanger is hot and the domestic water lines are both cold it would seem that the domestic water is not moving through your exchanger ??? if things were truly working properly and your exchanger were not big enough then i would think that the water leaving the exchanger and returning to yoru OWB and the domestic water leaving the exchanger would be the same temp (warm but not hot)
bottom line is (if i am thinking correct) if there is no change in boiler water temp in and out...there is no heat exchange taking place.
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Yeah this is really confusing and it seemed so simple. Something must be way off.
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are you certain 100 percent of your domestic water is going through the exchanger.(no other way for your domestic water to enter the tank?)
i would make a guess that domestic water going through a 1/2 inch pipe at normal house hold pressure would not be surpassing about 3 gpm and i would further guess that your OWB is doing at least that. heat transfer of some kind would have to be taking place in the exchanger if it is working at all. your owb pipes being hot on both sides means the boiler water must be moving, you say when you use the domestic hot water that the tank is eventually cold. That means yor domestic water is moving also. That is why i ask if there is a nother domestic cold water line delivering water to the tank and by passing the exchanger. I cant for the life of me figure out how water could be moving through both sides of your exchanger and not be transferring heat from one medium to another?
even if we said your boiler water was going through at 1 gpm and your domestic was traveling at 10 gpm there should be some noticable temp changes on the OWB return line. also if your OWB was going at 10 gpm and your domestic was at 1 gpm there should be a noticable difference on the domestic lines. if they were both going at 10 gpm (even though the exchanger was too small) there should be a difference of some sort in both lines from the feed to the return on the OWB side and the domestic in and out??
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Yeah this is really confusing and it seemed so simple. Something must be way off.
Is the plate exchanger clogged? Something is very wrong.
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Ok so I switched the domestic water lines around and shut off the water heater. The water to the shower was nice and hot but I had to have the cold water about off. And it seems that it will blow cold air thru the registers in the house. The boiler outlet line coming out of the exchanger was pretty cool when the water heater was using. Should I try replacing the pump first? Taco 0011?? And does it need to be a bronze pump?? Or do I keep my pump and get a 20 or 30 plate exchanger. Probably will only be able to do one or the other for now.
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on the boiler side, is the water going in the top fitting or in the bottom fitting?
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rsi is the expert on those plate eschangers but i will throw an idea out there and he can tell us if it would work. i am guessing on gpm through that plate exchanger but lets go with it and rsi can tell us if it has a chance of working.
i will say that your taco 11 is capable of moving 7 or 8 gpm (likley close) and lets say your small plate exchanger willl only let 3 gpm pass through it (strictly a guess on my part) and this is the only line going to your water air exchanger in your furnace then you may not be getting enough water to heat your home and your water.
lets say you were to use a header or a by-pass around your plate exchanger with valves on the lines..
you would have 1 feed line to your plate exchanger and one feed line to your water to air exchanger and after both your appliances the lines would join back into one return line to your OWB. this would allow the taco 11 to push its maximum amount of gpm...the 3 gpm would still go through your plate exchanger and the remainder of what the taco could push would go through your water to air exchanger. you would have valves on both lines that you could choke down or open to adjuct your flow
i currently use a taco 11, am 250 from the house and use a header system to heat my home via water to air exchanger in the furnace plenum, my domestic water in a home made water to water exchanger and a small loop of about 200 feet of radiant heat, and on occasion run a water to air exchanger in my fireplace. my thoughts are you rpump is big enough but you are holding the gpm delivered back because of yoru small plate exchanger. lets see what the fellas who know about plate exchangers think
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I've only got an Armstrong Astro 30 pump. I think I need at least that taco 0011.
Astro-30 Circulator Pump - 1/25 HP - Single Phase, 115 Volt - Fluid Lubricated - Cast Iron Volute - Connection Flanged 3/4 To 1-1/2" - 6-3/8" Flange To Flange - 19 GPM At 1' - Max Head 17' At 1 GPM - Replaces Grundfos UP15-42, UPS15-42, B&G Red Fox NRF - Mfg #1102 23-305
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I've only got an Armstrong Astro 30 pump. I think I need at least that taco 0011.
Astro-30 Circulator Pump - 1/25 HP - Single Phase, 115 Volt - Fluid Lubricated - Cast Iron Volute - Connection Flanged 3/4 To 1-1/2" - 6-3/8" Flange To Flange - 19 GPM At 1' - Max Head 17' At 1 GPM - Replaces Grundfos UP15-42, UPS15-42, B&G Red Fox NRF - Mfg #1102 23-305
yes, i tend to agree your pump is likley too small, i cant find your pumps "curve" but you should be sizing your pump so that (once you figure out your head loss) you land somewhere close to the middle of the curve. i would guess your needed water demand would be about 6 to 8 gpm and you may be (again guessing) getting 6 gpm at about 9 or 10 feet of head (and your system is likley more than that) these are all just guesses but from what you have provided and what you say is really happening leads to at least a too small of pump (and possably the plate exchanger guys could tell you what kind of head pressure your exchanger is adding) charts on the net can be found for figuring out head loss per foot of pipe but i have not been able to find one for the exchangers.
this is one of the reasons i went with a feed and return header. i can control the flow of water through each line with the valve on the feed header. i run most of them wide open and things seem to work out great.
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if you do trade it out why not make one like willie has this is my plan keep it simple :thumbup:
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rsi is the expert on those plate eschangers but i will throw an idea out there and he can tell us if it would work. i am guessing on gpm through that plate exchanger but lets go with it and rsi can tell us if it has a chance of working.
i will say that your taco 11 is capable of moving 7 or 8 gpm (likley close) and lets say your small plate exchanger willl only let 3 gpm pass through it (strictly a guess on my part) and this is the only line going to your water air exchanger in your furnace then you may not be getting enough water to heat your home and your water.
lets say you were to use a header or a by-pass around your plate exchanger with valves on the lines..
you would have 1 feed line to your plate exchanger and one feed line to your water to air exchanger and after both your appliances the lines would join back into one return line to your OWB. this would allow the taco 11 to push its maximum amount of gpm...the 3 gpm would still go through your plate exchanger and the remainder of what the taco could push would go through your water to air exchanger. you would have valves on both lines that you could choke down or open to adjuct your flow
i currently use a taco 11, am 250 from the house and use a header system to heat my home via water to air exchanger in the furnace plenum, my domestic water in a home made water to water exchanger and a small loop of about 200 feet of radiant heat, and on occasion run a water to air exchanger in my fireplace. my thoughts are you rpump is big enough but you are holding the gpm delivered back because of yoru small plate exchanger. lets see what the fellas who know about plate exchangers think
What size pipe to you have running to the house?
I have a similar setup. (did it almost 10 years ago) I have 2 water to air heat exchangers and a 10 plate all on a manifold setup. 1" Pex-al-pex is feeding it. I have to restrict the flow most of the way on the water to air heat exchangers to get enough through the plate. I used to have a 0011 on it but removed it after one winter because I didn't care for it. I had a Grundfos 26-96 on it till last year. Now I have a PL36 on it and it works better. If I were doing it again I would put a bigger plate first and run all the water through it. It works good enough the way it is so I never messed with it.
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I've only got an Armstrong Astro 30 pump. I think I need at least that taco 0011.
Astro-30 Circulator Pump - 1/25 HP - Single Phase, 115 Volt - Fluid Lubricated - Cast Iron Volute - Connection Flanged 3/4 To 1-1/2" - 6-3/8" Flange To Flange - 19 GPM At 1' - Max Head 17' At 1 GPM - Replaces Grundfos UP15-42, UPS15-42, B&G Red Fox NRF - Mfg #1102 23-305
Did you mention if the boiler supply line to the plate is the top or bottom port? I didn't see if you did.
The reason I am asking is if it is to the top and leave at the bottom, there is a good chance it is full of air. If this is happening the water is just falling through and not making contact with the plate. That would explain why the water is not getting heated and why the boiler water is coming out hot.
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It is entering the bottom. Since I switched the domestic lines around it is giving good heat off to the water for showers. I just think the air will be cool coming out of the registers. I'm looking for a bigger pump but don't know what to get. You really can't go to big can you?? So is the taco 0011 no big enough? And does it have to be a bronze instead of a cast pump.
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A taco 0011 might be big enough but a B&G PL36 isn't much more and will pump more but use less power.
If you stay with Taco, a 009 might actually pump more than the 0011 if you keep that plate.
You could also just add another pump like you have. You can just bolt them together to double the head pressure that they can output.
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Do I need a bronze pump? I have a taco 009 running my shop heater and the flow is really slow on that pump. I thought I needed something faster.
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i just used the taco 11 as reference as i thought that is what gandgracing had (my mistake) my current set up is 1 inch pex underground 250 feet from OWB to home.(one way) once in the home i drop back to 3/4 copper to the water to air in the furnace about 8 foot run one way..3/4 copper to the domestic exchanger about 30 feet one way, 1/2 inch pex 60 feet to my fire place,(one way) and 1/2 pex to my floor heat (entrance to the floor about 8 feet away((one way))) the loop is about 200 feet long. the only thing i restrict at all is the floor loop. the taco 11 has worked for 10 years now. I am sure there are better pumps out there now, as i only used the 0011 in my post as that is what i thought the user had. i would recomend that he worked on finding his head pressure in his system before ordering any pump. and then finding a pump that could suppply his needed gpm and his estimated head pressure that would meet somewhere near or slighlty below the middle of his pumps curve. hope this makes some sense?
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Do I need a bronze pump? I have a taco 009 running my shop heater and the flow is really slow on that pump. I thought I needed something faster.
cahrts i read on the net put a 009 at 25 feet of head at 4 gpm the taco 11 is just about double the gpm at the same head
bronze pumps are recomended for open systems i believe? but you should do your own search
as for pumps if you go to the taco web site i think you can look at a lot of pump curves for all inds of pumps (as i would think you could for grudsfos as well) you really need to figure out how many gpm you would like to deliver and calculate your head pressure in your system before buying any pump
most folks that buy theses stoves are at the mercy of hte dealer and although there are many dealers that will help you a tremendos amount there are (i ithink) more that know nothing of what they are selling except the profit in thier pocket. that is why sites like this and owbinfo.com are so valuable. moving water is not so simple
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Ok next question... Just add up all the vertical lines and there is an uphill line back to the boiler.
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in an open system you need to add up the total footage of your system and elbows, tees, valves, as they all have a "value" in calculating your head loss. you should be able to find charts on the net for these things. a valve "may" have a value of say, 1.2 feet of pipe and a tee may say .5 of a foot and so on then there are values for each size of line and type of material the line is made from. (what i am typing is not the true values as i am not looking at charts as i am at work)
lets say teh valur for 1 inch copper is 1.3. you would add up your total footage including the vlaues for your fittings. lets say that came to 200 feet yo uwould now multiply that by the value for copper and that would be your head loss in that length of pipe
perhaps 1 inch pex would be 1.5 and that would change the head pressure in the same lenght of total pipe because you would now multiply by that value
these values change for each type of material and each size of pipes
now the lazy mans way of doing all this is find someone on this site that has the approximate size of system as you and aske them how their system works and what size of pump they have. i am sure most on here would tell you.
like i said earlier moving water is not so simple
there are other values you need to use and i have just touched on one to show you that it is not so simple. there are things to consider like what delta temp you would like to use, how hot your water actually is (this would determine the btu value in each gpm) and so on
those hvac guys dont just show up and plop a furnace in your house..they have to do their homework (if you get a good one)
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I just bought this pump from menards. Stiebel Eltron 577003 CP3S26-110BFC. What do u think
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i never found the actual pump curve but i think i found a comparison chart and in teh middle speed it matches a taco 11 and the 3rd speed is higher yet. so i would make a guess (according ot that) ....you have a good pump (if it can hold up)
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A bronze pump in not required. The chemicals in the boiler will protect the pump just like they protect the boiler.
I bet close to 99% of the people here are running cast iron pumps.
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Love this post.. I wish it had just a little more picture and details. because I have purchased a 20 plate and was wanting to install it for my dhw . Even after reading all of these post. I still am confused on how to plumb these crazy things... I guess Ill need pictures or a diagram..lol I didn't think i was that dumb... :bash:
The sumptersmoker ;)
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PM me your email addresses and I can send some diagrams.
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I've got another concern after adding this plate to heat the house water. Last year I could go 24 hours on one loading all through the winter. Right now it's been in the 50 and 60's and the furnace is hardly running at all but the stove is not holding temp like it use to. Could using that 10 plate be hurting me that bad?
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Heating domestic water typically draws verly little heat off the water and creates minimal wood usage. Is it possible you are losing heat in the ground with your water delivery lines?
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I didn't have that kind of problem in the past. And it's not really cold out.
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Not unless your lines have soaked up with water. Ground temps where lines are buried could still be 50 degrees or less. That would draw heat off. What kind of line and insulation system do you have in the ground?
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1" lines that are wrapped with the foil insulation about 3 or 4 times I think. And are in a 4" black pipe.
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if you never had a problem before and you are sure you are not losing heat to the ground through your OWB supply or return lines as asked by others, have you checked to make sure your cold water supply from the house is not siphoning backwards and you are sending btu's back into the ground through your cold water supply. (does your cold water ever feel warm when you use just the cold water tap?) i don't mean siphong water backwards...just heat moving through the lines backwards (the cold water line acting as a heat sinc?)
when no hot water is being used it is possable for the standiing cold water in the domestic supply line to draw heat in reverse.
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Don't write off the possibility that your water line delivery system has filled with water. I've seen your style system fail many times after about 2 years of use without an issue prior. If you lose 15 degrees in the ground coming in to the house, you lose another 15 degrees going back out the the owf. How old is your system?