Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Portage & Main => Topic started by: morganharrisville on October 31, 2012, 08:33:45 AM
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We purchased a 450 for our new home in 2011. Used it last winter and found that it had corroded holes all thru the intake air ducts. Last winter had difficult time keeping this stove working found exhaust fan had self destructed. Our dealer has been excellent in trying to get help from the factory. The factory has offered us a replacement but the boiler they offered is $3200.00 less expensive than the 450. Oh, no refund of difference. They also want us to pay for the shipping of the new boiler, and then they offered to add stainless if we would pay another $1500.00. We understand problems happen, but we shouldn't have to pay for their R & D. We have spent in excess of $20,000.00 dollars for the 450 and it is shot after one season of use. Please be careful things aren't what they appear. We traveled to Iowa to see one in operation but it was his first year also. Service is terrible. Don't get burned.
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Sorry about your luck... I hope everything works out for you.
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That definitely sounds like a bad deal. How in the world did you get holes rusted into the intake? What was the stainless they were offering
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The holes aren't from rust. What happens with this model during the season is it shuts down when the preset water temperature is reach this is norma,l however the trapped gases and smoke are looking for a way out and the only direction they can go is out the supply air pipes back to the fresh air plenum and the damper. These trapped combustion gases eat away the metal. The air plenum where the damper is mounted is made of stainless steel, but the ducting to the firepot is made of regular sheet metal and black pipe. The pipe looks to be schedule 40 and will takes some time for it to corrode thru. The sheet metal is thin and corroded thru in one burning season. They are now offering a stainless steel option for a additional price.
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The holes aren't from rust. What happens with this model during the season is it shuts down when the preset water temperature is reach this is norma,l however the trapped gases and smoke are looking for a way out and the only direction they can go is out the supply air pipes back to the fresh air plenum and the damper. These trapped combustion gases eat away the metal. The air plenum where the damper is mounted is made of stainless steel, but the ducting to the firepot is made of regular sheet metal and black pipe. The pipe looks to be schedule 40 and will takes some time for it to corrode thru. The sheet metal is thin and corroded thru in one burning season. They are now offering a stainless steel option for a additional price.
Does the 250 have this problem? Why would they charge for something to make the stove work properly.
The trapped gasses on empyre don't do that, I'll have to look into why that's goin on
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I do know that the 250 has a similar air system and it has a pipe in the top of the firepot. A fellow we know has had his 250 plug and quit gasification until he found the problem and remedy it. My understanding is the top pipe has no way to rod it out only a tool to clean the holes in the pipe.
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Some photographs to ponder optimizer 450.
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Man!!! Looks like the fan was melted. You think it's just the creosote/gasses corroding it away? I've never seen a P&M boiler. There are lots of pics out there of the P&M 250 and I've spoken with a guy on this site who explained to me exactly how that was set up but I don't know much about the 450. I am running a CB2300. My fan is mounted on the bottom of the air box. From there there are 2 tubes, one to feed air to the primary fire and one to the secondary (combustion chamber). Each one comes straight through the back wall into the air box with 90 degree elbows facing upward. On top of those is a cap which is lifted by a solenoid when there is call for heat. This keeps the gasses out of the air box and esp. away from the blower fan. I wonder if there is a similar setup on the 450??
I will add that on my 2300, my primary air channel plugged up bad with no good way to clean it out. It then began to degrade terribly. I had it welded on the 3rd season. Then on the 4th season, last year, I had to get a welder here again. We ended up piping our own air channel up the the roof of the firebox and it runs much better for me. Now if I can stop it from forming leaks. Had one 1/2 way through last heat season and found another at shutdown in May.
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Have our 450 off the pad and a new 350 in its place. Have a new job after retiring from the electrical trade I now am a full time maintenance man keeping everything cleaned up.
We are in the process of installing a VFD to run the combustion fan and keep a constant burn based on water temp. Theory is to keep a positive pressure thru the air box and keep the gases going in the right direction. There are a lot of different factors that effect the combustion/ gasification. Kind of excited about getting this conversion installed. Hope it helps. Be in touch with our progress.
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I have been looking at the 350 as a possiblity for a new OWB. Just wondering how you are making out with it.
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Maintenance nightmare. It still has the air box issue during the off cycle.
Yes we have the Stainless option. Its only screwed to the galvanized sheet metal and is not sealed adding to the problem of the fresh air ducts creosote issue.
We are in process of adding a Variable Frequency Drive to modulate the fan speed according to the water temp. This should keep the fan running constantly at varying speeds. Both units the 350 and the 450 produce allot of heat its about the time to keep it cleaned up so it continues to work without self destructing. The wood we have been using has a 20% or less moisture content as measured by a quality moisture meter.
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Interested to see how that turns out, on a regular boiler it would be a nightmare but it may help your gasser. Wonder why it's different on the 250
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We have installed the VFD and three phase motorin our 350. So far it appears to been running as planned. The issues to date are keeping the temp close to the set point on warm days. We will be doing a shut down in the next few days to see how the boilers insides look running at slower speeds. Will post later. The 450 has been picked up and returned to Portage & Main.
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Is there any new info from your setup?
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Temps in the mid to upper 30's make air movement control more difficult. The boiler still wants to approach cut off temp which brings us back to the original problem of not having continous air flow thru the boiler. We have some other changes we will be making this summer to improve warm outdoor temperature control. When temps are cold outside the VFD has shown to be an inprovement with little additional wood usage. Stay warm.
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Our new and improved Optimizer 350 has developed a leak around one of the two inch tubes. Seems like one season is all we can get out of Portage & Mains gasification units.
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Would you please PM me with your contact information as I think I can help
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Let me know how u can help on this site maybe it would help some of the other members.
Thanks
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It appears that somebody did a really nice job cleaning the tubes, thanks for the pictures, just guessing that somebody did not weld the tube properly, have you contacted PM directly? if not then let me know who you are so we can get it fixed.
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I have contacted my dealer. I have to believe that there is some friction between P & M and the customer. We have heard rumors that they will fix the issue from our dealer but nothing official.
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So am I reading you correctly that the dealer is working with you to correct the problem and I personnally will not need to intervene to solve the problem, if that is so then great but if it does not get taken care of in a timely manner please let me know.
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The dealer only commented that P & M had mention repairing, but nothing official.
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I do not like getting into the middle of something and not knowing both sides of the story but I will if need be. Let me know, I prefer to have a conversation over the phone if possible as I do not type well and it consumes a lot of my time. You can reach me either by PM or call Brian and he will give you my phone #. Lets talk