Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: XJCraver on January 28, 2013, 08:24:29 PM
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Hi all. New guy here from IL. I'm going to be purchasing my first OWB, hopefully within the next ~30 days. I'll be heating 2,000 sq.ft. of drafty old farm house to start, with a possible future addition of a 24x36 garage down the road. I've read, and read, and read, and read, and read, until my head hurts, and I still don't have the answers to all my questions. So, I'm hopeful that if I just post a list of the things I'd like this boiler to do, you fine folks here will be able to lead me in the right direction. In advance, I'd like to thank you for the help.
I would like for this thing to:
Be self-filling on the water side, and not require any additives / conditioners / etc. in the water
Be able to burn high-creosote, very "hot" wood. It WILL have hedge (osage orange) burned in it.
Have a large-ish firebox, so I can be not-so-picky in regards to length/girth when cutting wood
Heat my domestic hot water
Have easy add-on capabilities, so I can add my garage to it later
Have a chimney that doesn't go through the roof of the unit - both for efficiency purposes, and for longevity of the unit itself
Have an easily removable ash pan, no augers
Require little, or minimal, maintenance - once a quarter or so is OK, once a week is not gonna' happen (other than emptying ashes)
And, of course, great factory CS would be a huge, huge bonus
Is all that possible, with any of the OWB's out there today? I realize I may be asking for alot, but I work 2 jobs, and I farm, and I've got 2 kids and a Mrs. So, I'm going to be lucky to get enough wood cut every year to feed this thing, let alone spend a bunch of time filling/testing water, scraping out heat exchangers, and cleaning chimneys. I want something that I can set up once and be mostly done. Load when I leave for work in the morning and when I get home at night, and forget about it the rest of the time kinda' thing. Is that gonna' happen?
Again, Thanks in advance for the help / wisdom!
-Joe
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I would tighten the ole drafty farmhouse up first because no matter how good of stove wood usage is destroyed with a heat loosing home. Just my 2 cents cuz that what I did and couldn't be happier. Make the home efficient first and then get the stove and use good underground pex if you get a good stove also.
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Hi all. New guy here from IL. I'm going to be purchasing my first OWB, hopefully within the next ~30 days. I'll be heating 2,000 sq.ft. of drafty old farm house to start, with a possible future addition of a 24x36 garage down the road. I've read, and read, and read, and read, and read, until my head hurts, and I still don't have the answers to all my questions. So, I'm hopeful that if I just post a list of the things I'd like this boiler to do, you fine folks here will be able to lead me in the right direction. In advance, I'd like to thank you for the help.
I would like for this thing to:
Be self-filling on the water side, and not require any additives / conditioners / etc. in the water
Having to add water would be very seldom
Be able to burn high-creosote, very "hot" wood. It WILL have hedge (osage orange) burned in it.
this wood is very high in btushould not be a problem if cut teh winter before burning
Have a large-ish firebox, so I can be not-so-picky in regards to length/girth when cutting wood
you can find large fire boxesHeat my domestic hot water
Have easy add-on capabilities, so I can add my garage to it later
using a manifold system to distribute your heat will allow thisHave a chimney that doesn't go through the roof of the unit - both for efficiency purposes, and for longevity of the unit itself
i dont think the way they build them with the exaust out teh roof will hurt them?Have an easily removable ash pan, no augers
again i think this is normal on a lot of stovesRequire little, or minimal, maintenance - once a quarter or so is OK, once a week is not gonna' happen (other than emptying ashes)
a non gasser (if you can use one in yoru area) it will use more wood than a gasser thoughAnd, of course, great factory CS would be a huge, huge bonus
no comment from me on this oneIs all that possible, with any of the OWB's out there today? I realize I may be asking for alot, but I work 2 jobs, and I farm, and I've got 2 kids and a Mrs. So, I'm going to be lucky to get enough wood cut every year to feed this thing, let alone spend a bunch of time filling/testing water, scraping out heat exchangers, and cleaning chimneys. I want something that I can set up once and be mostly done. Load when I leave for work in the morning and when I get home at night, and forget about it the rest of the time kinda' thing. Is that gonna' happen?
Again, Thanks in advance for the help / wisdom!
-Joe
if you get a gasser you may spend more time with it but less cutting wood so i think they may work out about even if you are measuring time?
a non gasser is kind of "plug" it full and go "play" at something else
you say you have researched and researched? you should have answered all these questions all ready
mostly i think guys that have gassers will tell you how great they are and guys like me with non gassers will tell you they burn more wood but do not have to spend time withthe stove (well hell, i don't own a gasser so how do i now how much time you have to spend with one?)
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I would tighten the ole drafty farmhouse up first because no matter how good of stove wood usage is destroyed with a heat loosing home. Just my 2 cents cuz that what I did and couldn't be happier. Make the home efficient first and then get the stove and use good underground pex if you get a good stove also.
I can only think of one stove that would come close to that, it would be an empyre deluxe. The deluxe is basically 10 gauge 304 stainless, only other 304 stainless stove I know is hardy and it's 16 gauge.
The chimney exits at the back, it has the same ripple top design as central boiler, forced draft, water cooled grates for pulling heat out of the coal bed and protecting them. As far as an auto fill, you never have to add water to these stoves anyway, I've been burning for years now and never had a stove use over 2 gallons per winter,stoves that have had history of belching water out and overheating are the ones I've seen with autofill..
When you start pricing a empyre deluxe 450 you pay for the stainless, it's thick and therefore heavy, it's about 4 bucks a pound now to the manufacturer, but it does come with a 20 year warranty.
Some specs on the 450 would be
20by24 door
36x45x60 firebox
300 gallon
Heats up to 8000 square feet
2500 pounds
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Good responses Marty, lots of validity, the deluxe is the only thing I could even think of close to meeting his needs.
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Scott7 knows what he is talking about. If I would have known about this forum 7 years ago, I would have bought my boiler from him. From what I can tell probably one of the best owb dealers in the midwest.
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Scott7 knows what he is talking about. If I would have known about this forum 7 years ago, I would have bought my boiler from him. From what I can tell probably one of the best owb dealers in the midwest.
I appreciate the kind words but regardless of who he buys from, that stove is the only one that comes close to meeting his needs. A 450 deluxe isnt something we sell a lot of, but sometimes there is that one guy who wants bulletproof and dont care to pay for it
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Hey, thanks for the quick responses all, much appreciated. :thumbup:
Adding additional insulation and replacing doors/windows is on "the list" for the drafty 'ol farmhouse, and will hopefully be next years project. The trouble is I'm a contractor by trade, so I don't have alot of time (or desire!) to work on my own stuff. It will be done, though, or I'll be divorced.....
Scott, thanks for the info. The CPW 250 isn't big enough, you don't think? It is actually on the "short list" of stoves I was looking at, along with the P&M ML30 and the Heatmor 200 CSS (althought that HM isn't nearly as impressive as the other 2).
Do you have any info on IL dealers? Close to 62246?
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I can find out for ya....
But now that you mention upgrading your house next year, that is likely doable, As far as the 250 goes deluxe goes. Would it do an old drafty 2000 sq ft house and a 24x36 shop? Burn times wouldn't be good
But would it do an upgraded farm house and a 24x36 shop, that's doable.
If your wanting to not test chemicals, the heatmor is 409 and requires chemicals, and portage and main is mild steel so it will definitely require attention And chem monitoring
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Hey, thanks for the quick responses all, much appreciated. :thumbup:
Adding additional insulation and replacing doors/windows is on "the list" for the drafty 'ol farmhouse, and will hopefully be next years project. The trouble is I'm a contractor by trade, so I don't have alot of time (or desire!) to work on my own stuff. It will be done, though, or I'll be divorced.....
Scott, thanks for the info. The CPW 250 isn't big enough, you don't think? It is actually on the "short list" of stoves I was looking at, along with the P&M ML30 and the Heatmor 200 CSS (althought that HM isn't nearly as impressive as the other 2).
Do you have any info on IL dealers? Close to 62246?
As far as the ml 30 it would meet most of you requirements aside from water the treatment, you do have to scrape the ash out of the exchanger about one a week for best results takes one min., as far as adding water which is rare unless you have a leak when you install connect to a water line with a valve so you only have to turn it on for a few seconds when you need water. As far as a the drafty old house and adding more you would probably need to seal up the house or get a larger unit to do more. I live in an 1860's farm house, ~2000sqft and it works the ml30 hard in cold weather, still working on the insulation.
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Dont mean to ask a stupid question but what is the problem with the pipe in the middle of the stove and why wont they last as long.
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Dont mean to ask a stupid question but what is the problem with the pipe in the middle of the stove and why wont they last as long.
There has been a lot of stuff put out on the net that top chimneys leak all the time.... I've not seen this to be true, the only thing you have to do is inspect the top around the chimney every year. Probably resilicone it every 3-5 years,
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Thanks scott7m first time i had seen anyone say somthing about them.
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Dont mean to ask a stupid question but what is the problem with the pipe in the middle of the stove and why wont they last as long.
That's purely ME. ;) I worked as a commercial roofer for a number of years, and am a Gen. Contractor now - anything going through a roof WILL eventually leak, in my experience. I know well that a little preventative maintenance can make that a non-issue, I was just being optimistic in my "wish list" that I could find a stove that wouldn't ever have that trouble.
After talking with Scott, and reading the board here, I've narrowed my options tremendously. Thank You all again for all the information, it's much appreciated!
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And he is getting a central boiler.
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Hey, thanks for the quick responses all, much appreciated. :thumbup:
Adding additional insulation and replacing doors/windows is on "the list" for the drafty 'ol farmhouse, and will hopefully be next years project. The trouble is I'm a contractor by trade, so I don't have alot of time (or desire!) to work on my own stuff. It will be done, though, or I'll be divorced.....
Scott, thanks for the info. The CPW 250 isn't big enough, you don't think? It is actually on the "short list" of stoves I was looking at, along with the P&M ML30 and the Heatmor 200 CSS (althought that HM isn't nearly as impressive as the other 2).
Do you have any info on IL dealers? Close to 62246?
my buddy P&M m36 made it 4 1/2 years and rotted out......if you go to my post on (portage of main ?) in discussion they do make a new model i posted info it's not even out to public yet...do you have to go outdoor or do you have a grage or shop thats insulated that you could run stove out of? may look into indoor model? getting the heat off the boiler to heat building it's in plus getting the hot water heat for house and so on.....just throwing other option out there....if indoor is exceptable may want to try looking in to thermal-control or other comapny that have indoor models....I would reccommend getting in a insulated jacket unless you have it in basement of house.....let us know what you go with....
kelly
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And he is getting a central boiler.
Lol. I can assure you, whatever stove we do end up with, it will NOT be a CB. Nothing against their stoves at all, but the local dealer is a class-A ____. I will not spend any money with him, for a stove, or parts, or anything; just not gonna happen. ;D
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I agree. My cb dealer told me if it ain't cb its junk. Said the tests don't lie for their stoves or pex. Must be if you buy john deere you buy central boiler? I bought a kubota which I think is a better tractor with basic options.
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Have to say, had a Central Boiler for 3 years so far and it's been great! 2600 sq ft with DHW , run from Nov to April. 1400 E-Classic
Also Pex line. I believe is a must for little to no heat loss.
Great installer and good Rep services.
Just my 2 cents
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Hi
Before even thinking about buying a stove you better be about 2 years ahead on your wood unless your going to buy all your firewood other wise your going to be burning unseasoned wood and your burn times are going to be very low and wasting your time and getting upset when you are relighting you're stove all the time from burning wet unseasoned wood
As far as what brand I know there is plenty of cb haters on the forum and that's fine But any stove you purchase you need to take care of and pay a little attention to cleaning and maintance to it or you must have extra money to burn With most of the statements you've made I don't think their is a stove for you. Maybe try geo thermal Sorry just my two cents. Hope I didn't hurt your feelings
Good luck with your purchase
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And he is getting a central boiler.
Lol. I can assure you, whatever stove we do end up with, it will NOT be a CB. Nothing against their stoves at all, but the local dealer is a class-A ____. I will not spend any money with him, for a stove, or parts, or anything; just not gonna happen. ;D
OK so if isn't anything about the CB stoves..And your local dealer sucks..Thats really gonna make you not buy a cb stove?? There are other dealers out there!! Isn't that the territory for anything
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Hi
Before even thinking about buying a stove you better be about 2 years ahead on your wood unless your going to buy all your firewood other wise your going to be burning unseasoned wood and your burn times are going to be very low and wasting your time and getting upset when you are relighting you're stove all the time from burning wet unseasoned wood
As far as what brand I know there is plenty of cb haters on the forum and that's fine But any stove you purchase you need to take care of and pay a little attention to cleaning and maintance to it or you must have extra money to burn With most of the statements you've made I don't think their is a stove for you. Maybe try geo thermal Sorry just my two cents. Hope I didn't hurt your feelings
Good luck with your purchase
There are many of my customers cut trees as they need them, no joke.. I'm talking cut today and burn tomorrow until it runs out, there are many who no matter how hard you try to educate, believe that wet or green wood lasts longer because it's harder to burn.
To make things worse, my local hardy dealer who has been here since hardy came along, advises his customers to burn all green wood, he even discourages wood sheds and says to just pile it up by the stove...
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Yeah Scott I have heard that green wood comment a lot around here I have noticed a big difference in wet vs dry wood in my hardy along with reading on here a wood shed of some kind is in the near future for me. There is a guy I know who has a hardy and I have seen while trees laying beside it limbs and all with a little missing each day as he needs it and I have also seen smoke hanging for a good while too. I don't seem to have much of a smoke issue but my wood has been cut for a year I can't wait to see results when I get ahead. It is definitely hard to get a head just having the stove for 10 months but I believe I cut enough last year to make it all this winter and some of next
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This whole post is who is right and who is wrong.. Which brand sucks. What brand is the best. Dealers pushing their product..Dealers that suck...You know what..They are all designed to do one thing..Heat water and keep you warm..There will never be a right answer to anyone..So many different opinions on the product..
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Hi
Before even thinking about buying a stove you better be about 2 years ahead on your wood unless your going to buy all your firewood other wise your going to be burning unseasoned wood and your burn times are going to be very low and wasting your time and getting upset when you are relighting you're stove all the time from burning wet unseasoned wood
As far as what brand I know there is plenty of cb haters on the forum and that's fine But any stove you purchase you need to take care of and pay a little attention to cleaning and maintance to it or you must have extra money to burn With most of the statements you've made I don't think their is a stove for you. Maybe try geo thermal Sorry just my two cents. Hope I didn't hurt your feelings
Good luck with your purchase
There are many of my customers cut trees as they need them, no joke.. I'm talking cut today and burn tomorrow until it runs out, there are many who no matter how hard you try to educate, believe that wet or green wood lasts longer because it's harder to burn.
To make things worse, my local hardy dealer who has been here since hardy came along, advises his customers to burn all green wood, he even discourages wood sheds and says to just pile it up by the stove...
That's fine Scott my stove will do that too. But your btu's got to be low that you are achieving out of that piece of wood aren't they. I'm asking I would think the more seasoned the better But I've been wrong before
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Dont mean to ask a stupid question but what is the problem with the pipe in the middle of the stove and why wont they last as long.
There has been a lot of stuff put out on the net that top chimneys leak all the time.... I've not seen this to be true, the only thing you have to do is inspect the top around the chimney every year. Probably resilicone it every 3-5 years,
7 years with my boiler..stack comes up from the middle of the boiler..Never had a problem..
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Oh your right, but some people don't care, if wood is 50% moisture content, you've automatically lost half it's potential
But to many folks, wood is no object, it's hard to sell someone on efficiency when they have 200-400 acres of woods on there property, they literally drag it out of the woods and cut it as they need it like walker said
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This whole post is who is right and who is wrong.. Which brand sucks. What brand is the best. Dealers pushing their product..Dealers that suck...You know what..They are all designed to do one thing..Heat water and keep you warm..There will never be a right answer to anyone..So many different opinions on the product..
Amen. Matty.
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Dont mean to ask a stupid question but what is the problem with the pipe in the middle of the stove and why wont they last as long.
There has been a lot of stuff put out on the net that top chimneys leak all the time.... I've not seen this to be true, the only thing you have to do is inspect the top around the chimney every year. Probably resilicone it every 3-5 years,
7 years with my boiler..stack comes up from the middle of the boiler..Never had a problem..
Yea most stoves I sell do come out the top... But for years and years cb used that as a selling point against the competition, and it still lingers today
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Dont mean to ask a stupid question but what is the problem with the pipe in the middle of the stove and why wont they last as long.
There has been a lot of stuff put out on the net that top chimneys leak all the time.... I've not seen this to be true, the only thing you have to do is inspect the top around the chimney every year. Probably resilicone it every 3-5 years,
7 years with my boiler..stack comes up from the middle of the boiler..Never had a problem..
Yea most stoves I sell do come out the top... But for years and years cb used that as a selling point against the competition, and it still lingers today
CB has a lot of advertisement power for sure..Heck They are even on the outdoor channel..Theres reasons why your brand you sell and my brand still choose to vent from the top of the boiler itself..One reason I can think of is the creosote reason..
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I am sure watching their stoves smoke makes them feel excited maybe that is why they burn green wood? It is fun to watch tho...hahaha what the heck. :post:
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You didn't mention anything about cost.....so I would suggest you look at a Garn which in my opinion is the best wood boiler going. www.garn.com (http://www.garn.com) It has 2000 gallons of water storage onboard so one fire a day is all that is needed, does not smoke and no creosote. Beat that!
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I've looked at Garn extensively, batch burning is not for me, everyday you must build a new fire, with new kindling, and be with it for a couple hours, it often takes a couple loads of wood to bring the water temp back to 200
I was considering being a Garn distributor but once I got involved and saw how things operated with there stoves and especially the business, i had a couple sold, but they wanted so much up front, wanted the customer to wait 3-4 months, and would not give him a total cost until it was complete, at the time they were charging 1100 over retail due to material costs..
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XJ,
Im in IL and would be happy to show you my Heatmaster 10,000E in action.
I too have an old farm house with minimal insualtion and heat 2 other buildings with it, no problems.
I load it before work and after work and thats it, about 10-15 minutes a day and burn anything Ive been able to find, green or not. It NEVER goes out unless it burns out. Half my time loading is spent looking at the nice fire inside and enjoying the warmth on my face - LOL
Chemicals - Seems like everything out there can benifit from some sort of chemical treatment to prevent corrosion and it literally doesnt take long at all, and it might not even have to be done yearly.
As far as mainenance, pretty sure anything will have SOMETHING to keep up on. A little caulk around the vent seems minimal and making sure its properly sucured and not moving around in the wind will go along way in preventing the silicone joint from needing attention.
The ash pan is simple simple simple - no auger. Pull out and dump. 30 seconds.
I also just added the secondary air kit to the unit now and am thouroghly impressed with the better burn and very little to no smoke even with the green stuff im burning - No joke, blew me away.
So seriously, if your somewhat close, come on over.
Lots of good brands to choose from I know - so many good models and happy customers. Decisions Decisions - haha
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Fella's -
Seems like I started a bit of "contention" here, and I certainly didn't mean to. My apologies if so.
I didn't mean to imply that I had anything against the CB units. They look well put together to me, and I know there are plenty of satisfied customers out there. My contention with them is my local dealer, who will absolutely get none of my money, EVER (which, incidentally, has nothing at all to do with stoves). The next closest dealer is ~2 hrs away, and since they didn't have a stove that was on my short-list to begin with, I simply chose not to consider them. Again, not because of the stoves, but because of the dealer.
I don't recall anywhere saying I was going to be burning exclusively green wood. I have access to virtually unlimited timber, and already have a decent stockpile of cured wood available. My requirement that the stove be able to burn "hot" wood such as hedge is because I have gobs of it, and even cured it is full of creosote. It is what I have the most of, though, so I will be burning it. I won't be burning 100% green wood in whichever stove I buy.
And I'll explain this again in case some of you missed it the first time - the wish that the stove have a side-mounted flue rather than through-the-roof is entirely a product of my experience as a roofer / carpenter. It has nothing to do with one stove or another, it's just a design feature I would prefer. It's solely due to the fact that a side-mounted flue will have much less chance of ever developing a leak than a roof mounted one. I understand that there are a lot of units out there that have never had a chimney leak - that's great! I just personally will be happier if that is one worry I never have to have.
I truly appreciate everyone's info. so far. You've all given me other options to look at and factors to consider. I'm still weighing cost / options on the aforementioned "short-list" of contenders, but I'm slowly coming to a decision. I'll let you all know which one I finally end up with!
-Joe
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Fella's -
Seems like I started a bit of "contention" here, and I certainly didn't mean to. My apologies if so.
I didn't mean to imply that I had anything against the CB units. They look well put together to me, and I know there are plenty of satisfied customers out there. My contention with them is my local dealer, who will absolutely get none of my money, EVER (which, incidentally, has nothing at all to do with stoves). The next closest dealer is ~2 hrs away, and since they didn't have a stove that was on my short-list to begin with, I simply chose not to consider them. Again, not because of the stoves, but because of the dealer.
I don't recall anywhere saying I was going to be burning exclusively green wood. I have access to virtually unlimited timber, and already have a decent stockpile of cured wood available. My requirement that the stove be able to burn "hot" wood such as hedge is because I have gobs of it, and even cured it is full of creosote. It is what I have the most of, though, so I will be burning it. I won't be burning 100% green wood in whichever stove I buy.
And I'll explain this again in case some of you missed it the first time - the wish that the stove have a side-mounted flue rather than through-the-roof is entirely a product of my experience as a roofer / carpenter. It has nothing to do with one stove or another, it's just a design feature I would prefer. It's solely due to the fact that a side-mounted flue will have much less chance of ever developing a leak than a roof mounted one. I understand that there are a lot of units out there that have never had a chimney leak - that's great! I just personally will be happier if that is one worry I never have to have.
I truly appreciate everyone's info. so far. You've all given me other options to look at and factors to consider. I'm still weighing cost / options on the aforementioned "short-list" of contenders, but I'm slowly coming to a decision. I'll let you all know which one I finally end up with!
-Joe
Hey Joe
Were all good no harm done here i just figured from what you said
"So, I'm going to be lucky to get enough wood cut every year to feed this thing, let alone spend a bunch of time filling/testing water, scraping out heat exchangers, and cleaning chimneys."
I didn't know you had a stockpile already I thought what you were getting at was you were going to get a stove in 30 days and start cutting wood now. Sorry misunderstood
All I was getting at its a commitment to stay in front of your stove a couple of years so it has time to season. Otherwise if you don't you'll end up burning green wood because nothing else is ready. I try to burn seasoned wood in mine because t it does smoke with wetter wood until it drys it down of course then its good. I realize some stoves burn green wood better than others. I have a lot of neighbors by me I try to keep peace so I have no complaints if I lived in country a little more it may different.
Jack
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You didn't mention anything about cost.....so I would suggest you look at a Garn which in my opinion is the best wood boiler going. www.garn.com (http://www.garn.com) It has 2000 gallons of water storage onboard so one fire a day is all that is needed, does not smoke and no creosote. Beat that!
doesn't smoke and no soot issue?? ya ok. Reading on the web sight 2 of their models are epa phase 2 exempt because of the large burn capacity.. I don't believe it..
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Matty,
You don't need to believe it. Talk to any Garn owner and see what they have to say or better yet go see one operate. Fact is their emissions are already lower than the proposed EPA 3 limits. Don't own one myself but if I had the bucks it would be no contest.
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Go to U-Tube and look for the Ernie movie. He's a guy that lives on the North shore of the big lake. It's pretty amazing. He has a Garn unit. Big bucks for a Garn. Too bad they don't build a mini-Garn.
GARN WHS 2000 - Ernie - Duluth, Minnesota (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIBj6gLqy8k#)
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You didn't mention anything about cost.....so I would suggest you look at a Garn which in my opinion is the best wood boiler going. www.garn.com (http://www.garn.com) It has 2000 gallons of water storage onboard so one fire a day is all that is needed, does not smoke and no creosote. Beat that!
doesn't smoke and no soot issue?? ya ok. Reading on the web sight 2 of their models are epa phase 2 exempt because of the large burn capacity.. I don't believe it..
No creosote soot or smoke isn't something that's hard to obtain with a batch burn unit, they stay dry as powder inside...
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The Garn's are really nice units.
The biggest issue I would have with one would be the initial cost.
There are folks out there who have upwards of 40k into their set ups if they buy the Garn then build a barn(Garn Barn) to house it in.
Then there's the insurance thing to worry about when you have a wood burning device in a building you maintain on your property.
And...I don't have the time to babysit a fire for 2 1/2 hours a day(as per video above).
I have a little over 13k into my complete setup.
I can go through 3+ of mine to 1 Garn.
It was a very easy decision for me.
If I had that much money to through around, I'd buy a chip burner. Load the bin once/week and you're good to go!
And no babysitting :thumbup:
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i had a friend who had a garn (still does) he had it for quite a few years...then his insurance came out one day and looked over his house (i think they were looking ot up the rates..they spotted his garn and the guy asked al ot of questions about it, my pal was more than happy to shoe it off as it worked really well...then the before the gy left he said he could not insure his house any longer because the garn did not have a ULC-US tag on it
my buddy was all in a tiff and figured he had to chuck his stove..then he got a bright idea to go to the scrap yard and peel one of a junk furnace and switch insuranc ecompanies. the new company did not even ask about it
i dont know if the newer ones have this tag or not?
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Willie, perfect example of the problems I started seeing pop up...
Marty you are correct, many people end up with well over 40k by the time they are complete.... There see lots of hidden costs.
The main thing to me is being tied to my boiler, I can not and will not sit there and load wood in it for over 2 hours everyday
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another plus we all know but sometimes forget about our OWB because it is a thing of the past...NO bugs in teh house..NO back draft causing stinky smoke in teh house...NO ashes flying around when trying to clean the stove...NO mud, bark, dirt to clean up after spending an afternoon filling up the basement with wood from teh outdoor wood pile.
yes i will agree they make some nice looking and efficient indoor wood stoves but they don't make one for me!
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yes i will agree they make some nice looking and efficient indoor wood stoves but they don't make one for me!
They don't make one for me either..... Undoubtedly they are good stoves. But if I had $40K to stick in a furnace, I'd put geothermal in, not ever have to cut wood again, and still have 20 grand in my pocket. ;D
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yes i will agree they make some nice looking and efficient indoor wood stoves but they don't make one for me!
They don't make one for me either..... Undoubtedly they are good stoves. But if I had $40K to stick in a furnace, I'd put geothermal in, not ever have to cut wood again, and still have 20 grand in my pocket. ;D
I upgrade many geothermal units to wood boilers each year... My parents have geothermal and there freezing to death lol
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Matty,
You don't need to believe it. Talk to any Garn owner and see what they have to say or better yet go see one operate. Fact is their emissions are already lower than the proposed EPA 3 limits. Don't own one myself but if I had the bucks it would be no contest.
Why arnt the Garns listed on the EPA list for a clean hydronic burner? If your fact is true..Why hasn't any brand listed on this forum use that technology?? Don't know any Garn owners
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yes i will agree they make some nice looking and efficient indoor wood stoves but they don't make one for me!
They don't make one for me either..... Undoubtedly they are good stoves. But if I had $40K to stick in a furnace, I'd put geothermal in, not ever have to cut wood again, and still have 20 grand in my pocket. ;D
I upgrade many geothermal units to wood boilers each year... My parents have geothermal and there freezing to death lol
Yeah, I just heard that from someone else. Weird, because I've built 3 houses that have geo, and know a few other guys with retrofits to new-ish homes, and they all love them.
They're just soooooooo dang expensive. The bid for my house was half-again what a boiler is gonna' cost me.
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Yep, the air just doesnt feel warm is the complaints I hear from geo folks
They were really big here in the late 90's but have kinda slowed down
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Matty, there an indoor unit, no need to do EPA testing
Wy does others not do it? They do, there are endless numbers of folks who have European style boilers with mass storage.
Why do most companies such as profab, central and others not push them? who has time to babysit there stove for 2 hours per day?? Not me, they are a batch burn unit, it's either on or off.... It doesn't cycle so if you want to store 1 million btu, you gotta set there and cram 1 million btu of wood into it for a couple hours.
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The Garn 1500 and the 2000 were tested last year at one of the EPA's testing facilities, I believe, and they fared VERY, VERY WELL!
I'm certain that there are quite a few states that maintain them as being a Phase 2 OWB that complies with the EPA's tests.
Massachusetts I believe was one of them.
I wish that the states that mandate that an OWB be EPA compliant, would also mandate that European Indoor Wood Boiler manufacturers who sell units in our country spend the money and go through the testing procedures just like they are forcing the OWB companies to do!
I believe that they(IWB's) would easily pass the efficiency part of the testing, but I think they would fail on the particulate emissions part of the testing. If the IWB's don't have to be tested, then neither should the OWB's......In my humble opinion, that is!
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The Garn 1500 and the 2000 were tested last year at one of the EPA's testing facilities, I believe, and they fared VERY, VERY WELL!
I'm certain that there are quite a few states that maintain them as being a Phase 2 OWB that complies with the EPA's tests.
Massachusetts I believe was one of them.
I wish that the states that mandate that an OWB be EPA compliant, would also mandate that European Indoor Wood Boiler manufacturers who sell units in our country spend the money and go through the testing procedures just like they are forcing the OWB companies to do!
I believe that they(IWB's) would easily pass the efficiency part of the testing, but I think they would fail on the particulate emissions part of the testing. If the IWB's don't have to be tested, then neither should the OWB's......In my humble opinion, that is!
The nuts can see outdoor boilers tho lol
It's kinda like putting an extra grip on your hunting rifle makes it an "assault weapon".
Just something for them to go on about trying to feel goof about themselves
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Couple of things.
Scott you keep insisting you have to babysit a Garn for 2 hours. That may be true for the initial burn when the tank is cold to get the water heated up to 180, but after that it's a matter of loading 50-100 lbs. of wood into the boiler and walking away. I would say 10-15 min. max. because first you have to get a decent fire going before you can really load it up.
The biggest pain is starting a fire every time because no matter how much wood you throw into a Garn it is completely eaten in 3-4 hours...no idling and no holding back the fire so no coals left alive. With the help of a propane torch and some kindling even starting a fire doesn't take much time.
As for the UL/CSA sure as sh*t Garn has that designation or they wouldn't be crossing the border.
The EPA testing is completely bogus and pretty much all the wood boiler companies already know this. Thought that conversation has been run through on here a couple of times??? Even the EPA acknowledges this and has suspended their testing proceedures until they can figure out a legitimate "real world" test for wood boilers. Never mind the claims of 95% efficiency and the stickers plastered to the boiler like medals and look at the actual emissions numbers.
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Couple of things.
Scott you keep insisting you have to babysit a Garn for 2 hours. That may be true for the initial burn when the tank is cold to get the water heated up to 180, but after that it's a matter of loading 50-100 lbs. of wood into the boiler and walking away. I would say 10-15 min. max. because first you have to get a decent fire going before you can really load it up.
The biggest pain is starting a fire every time because no matter how much wood you throw into a Garn it is completely eaten in 3-4 hours...no idling and no holding back the fire so no coals left alive. With the help of a propane torch and some kindling even starting a fire doesn't take much time.
As for the UL/CSA sure as sh*t Garn has that designation or they wouldn't be crossing the border.
The EPA testing is completely bogus and pretty much all the wood boiler companies already know this. Thought that conversation has been run through on here a couple of times??? Even the EPA acknowledges this and has suspended their testing proceedures until they can figure out a legitimate "real world" test for wood boilers. Never mind the claims of 95% efficiency and the stickers plastered to the boiler like medals and look at the actual emissions numbers.
The numbers are much closer than they used to be, there initial test showed boilers making more btu than they were putting in lol
I think burning firewood might be a good first step in more accurate EPA tests. When a stove is being tested they are fine tuning it, running it on lean so to speak, when you receive your boiler, it can't be on the same settings, it has to be different to allow for various condtions
In regards to the wood usage....
If it was 100 when you refilled, and you had 2000 gallons and wanted to go to 200, that's 16,680 pounds of water. 1 btu per pound per degree, so to go from 100 to 200 degrees would require 1,668,000 btu's
Wood produces on average around 8600 btu per pound, Let's say wood moisture content is 18%, 7052 btu per pound is available then, and Garn can average around 84% recovery, so it can recover 5924 btu per pound of wood
That would come to 281.56 pounds of excellent cured wood to go from 100-200 degrees.. That's also assuming no other btu's are being lost in the system which we know is impossible..
To go from 150-200 would require 140.78 pounds of wood
To go from 175-200 would require 70.39 pounds
A cord of oak weighs around 3900. If you raised the temp from 100-200 every day you would go through a cord of wood every 13 days, that's once again assuming the rest of the system loses nothing.
I'm also not implying that you have to raise 100 each day, that all varies.
But 50 pounds of wood would only raise the temp 16-17 degrees in 2000 gallons
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type in "garn wood stoves"in your search box they have a site ,and they say they are approved for indoor placement, and becasue of the size of them they are exempt from epa testing but they are testing a smaller unit right now.
I think they likley are a good stove and (at least) as good as any OWB. I think "personal preference" comes in to play if you are "for" or "against" them
also garn is about the only indoor "outdoor" stove i have seen..so advertising probable has a lot to do with who has them as well...i mean, one (or only a couple anyway) of these types of stove to hear about in advertising going up against 20 or more OWB companies
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This is my 4th year with my 5036 CB and have had no issues with it yet. The dealed I had bought from sux.I found a good guy and use him. I have learned a lot about running these stoves. The one thing I learn is that wood can be green but 6 months seasoned is best. and dont cut your wood 36'' like my first dealed said. 18'' to 24'' burns as long as the big stuff. The thing that blows me away is that I have never added a drop of water to the thing in 4 years. test it yearly and go.
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Why does it have a 2000 gallon tank?Mine is only 140 gallon it does just fine.
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Because its a batch burn unit, you load it once a day and let her eat, then let it go out and use the water from the storage
If you had a small home you might even get a couple days of of it
But look at the math I did about how much wood it takes to raise those temps, they are still effdicient don't get me wrong
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So it works the same way using hot circulated water to heat my house and water.But just in bigger tank so it lasts longer between burns .I wouldnt want to have to rebuild the fire every couple days or everyday.I only load my heater twice a day.
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Yes that part works the same way, hydronic heating, but you build fires as needed, most once per day
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I guess I wont be getting a Garn.
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Me neither plus there like a million dollars.I havent seen a plus side of them yet.I guess there are some or noone would buy them.
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The Garn sounds like a pain in the butt. Keep it simple, no baby sitting.