Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: XJCraver on February 11, 2013, 08:29:24 PM
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Well, we ended up buying an Empyre CWP 250. I liked the stove and the reviews, no EPA regs in my part of IL yet (and I didn't want a gasser), and the deal was better than I could get on anything local (thanks Scott!). I'm going to do the install myself, with some drafted help from a couple buddies who owe me favors. :-)
So now that it's on it's way, I thought I'd throw this out here and see what you guys wish you'd done differently (or not) when you installed your stoves. Any tips, tricks, suggestions, or things you wish someone had told you before you did yours? From setting the stove itself to the plumbing hook-ups, tools, accessories, additives, etc. - everything is "fair game" for advice here!
In this case, it'll be a "standard" forced air installation - HE in the plenum, 20 plate for DHW. I bought 5-wrap line to bury, and all my fittings/valves are brass. Tying into copper plumbing in the cellar. All we're doing now is the house - I have plans to add another loop from the stove to the shop next year, but I have to get it insulated first...
So anyway, just curious what the suggestions / guidelines are. I know this thread'll help me, and I'm hoping other "newbies" can refer back here later if/when they have questions. Thanks in advance for the info.!
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i wish i had put my underground line in a bigger tile...just so i could pull it if i needed to, and what the heck another chance to keep it dry can't hurt...can it?
and if possable, perhaps a drain tile under the OWB lines (if you got an outlet for it)
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See, now that's something I'm really struggling with. Do I go ahead and spend a little extra now and put them in a tile (for the reasons you listed), or just quit spending money and bury the things? I can't decide.
I'd say I'm leaning towards the extra tile right now, and will probably go ahead with it unless someone talks me out of it. I know nothing "should" ever happen to the pex, and it'll save me some coin, but it'd sure be a bunch easier to re-do them if I ever had to.....
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Yea... An extra tile is just like added insurance...
2 tiles would have to fail vs one, it's no telling how long that would last fixed like that, likely longer than you or me lol
The 5 wrap you bought is good stuff.
In a 500 ft loop test, flowing 180 water at 5gpm, it lost 3.1 degrees. That's great
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If you an outer tile it will likely have to be 7-8" in diameter to make it possible to pull it through
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oh ya...if iwas putting in new lines again with my 500 foot loop i would have gone 1.25 pex. i dont have any problem heating everhtyhing now but less friction i could downsize my pump ..this dam stuff you put under the ground is (i think) is what will make or brake your OWB experience go big..go best and go once.
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I can get 8" non-perforated tile from my local lumber yard pretty cheap, I think I'll use that. I just really think I'll be kicking myself when it's all said and done if I don't!
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I can get 8" non-perforated tile from my local lumber yard pretty cheap, I think I'll use that. I just really think I'll be kicking myself when it's all said and done if I don't!
Yep, nothing wrong with taking sn extra step, it will also make the pex even more efficient as there will be no damp soil ever touching the outside of it's tile....
Also, make sure you bring the outer tile up under the stove where it can never get water in it, and extend it into the cellar as well, they have to start and stop in the dry
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The only thing I wish I had done different was install my stove 10 years ago!!
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What happens if it does get a little water or moisture in it ?
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This looks like it will be a thread for newbies to follow for sure. What's keeping mice and their larger friends out of the larger tile? Don't need to give them a nice warm home too!
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Well, we ended up buying an Empyre CWP 250. I liked the stove and the reviews, no EPA regs in my part of IL yet (and I didn't want a gasser), and the deal was better than I could get on anything local (thanks Scott!). I'm going to do the install myself, with some drafted help from a couple buddies who owe me favors. :-)
So now that it's on it's way, I thought I'd throw this out here and see what you guys wish you'd done differently (or not) when you installed your stoves. Any tips, tricks, suggestions, or things you wish someone had told you before you did yours? From setting the stove itself to the plumbing hook-ups, tools, accessories, additives, etc. - everything is "fair game" for advice here!
In this case, it'll be a "standard" forced air installation - HE in the plenum, 20 plate for DHW. I bought 5-wrap line to bury, and all my fittings/valves are brass. Tying into copper plumbing in the cellar. All we're doing now is the house - I have plans to add another loop from the stove to the shop next year, but I have to get it insulated first...
So anyway, just curious what the suggestions / guidelines are. I know this thread'll help me, and I'm hoping other "newbies" can refer back here later if/when they have questions. Thanks in advance for the info.!
I did this in my hook up make shure you plum in a filler line in your house with a good ball valve.....that way you can fill system from house not running a long hose out to your boiler.....my system is pressurized so now it has a auto filler hooked up there as well..........I would hook up also hook up good shut off valves with bleeders just incase you need to bleed system.......I would also run pvc pipe bigger than your lines so you can help protect your lines and you can slide it out if you ever have to.......
kelly
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BaldwinRacing - Good idea with the valves / bleeders. I bought extra, to make sure I've got a valve everywhere there could ever possibly be a need for one. I'm re-plumbing part of the house with this install, and bought plenty of valves for that too.
I've remodeled WAY too many houses that didn't have enough places to shut off the water - I hate that!!
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I like the extra tile thought. I would have buried mine a little deeper, I went 24" because of tree roots got tired of digging and chopping. I DID put ball valves at every HX, water heater, both sides of the pump. I have since replaced all my "shark bite" style fittings with crimp pex. WOW, what a difference that made. In the spring when the water cooled down I got a leak at the fitting, not anymore. I wish I had semi enclosed the OWB just to keep the snow and rain off me when I load it, or train the wife to load it would have been even better. Save the beer until AFTER it is all hooked up, drafted help is not always as attentive with alchohol in 'em. I wish I had done that different too.
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Orient the unit so the north winds blow into it when you open the door to load. Helps to keep a lot of smoke out of your face.
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What happens if it does get a little water or moisture in it ?
It sucks heat away like cray if that happens.... U go from burning 6 cord to 8 or 10
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This looks like it will be a thread for newbies to follow for sure. What's keeping mice and their larger friends out of the larger tile? Don't need to give them a nice warm home too!
Take a can of spray foam insulation and go around the end of the pipes, it will seal them off no problem
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I like the extra tile thought. I would have buried mine a little deeper, I went 24" because of tree roots got tired of digging and chopping. I DID put ball valves at every HX, water heater, both sides of the pump. I have since replaced all my "shark bite" style fittings with crimp pex. WOW, what a difference that made. In the spring when the water cooled down I got a leak at the fitting, not anymore. I wish I had semi enclosed the OWB just to keep the snow and rain off me when I load it, or train the wife to load it would have been even better. Save the beer until AFTER it is all hooked up, drafted help is not always as attentive with alchohol in 'em. I wish I had done that different too.
I hear that! One helper doesn't drink at all, but the other one and I make up for it... He makes homemade wine, and I'm sure we'll have a bottle or two to celebrate afterwards! :-)
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This will vary by stove but wish I would have put mine on blocks or something to elevate it so I didn't have to bend so much when loading it and get so much smoke in my face.
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Orient the unit so the north winds blow into it when you open the door to load. Helps to keep a lot of smoke out of your face.
Ah, yeah, that's another "issue" I'm gonna' have... The ONLY place on this entire farm I can put this thing is NW of my house. :( I've already got a pad ~35' away that I'm going to set it on, and I'm gonna' build a wood shed next to and over the stove. Figure I'll extend the stack as high as I can (since I can brace it to the woodshed roof) to get the smoke over the house. I know it's not ideal, but it really is the only place I have to put it.
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Hey Scott7m. Thanks for the info!
I had a mole put a mound right where my pex comes out of the ground. It was surrounded by dirt >:(
I would think that would be enough to suck some heat out, it was mostly wet except next to the two water lines.
Cleaned it out and for now put insulation around it.
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Lots of good tips here. Hope you have better luck with Empyre than I did. Corrosion around the door at year 5. Scott has likely told you to drive a ground rod and attach copper wire. I also would put a flexible wire between the door and the boiler. Mine didn't always ground at the latch and hinges because of ash I guess. Electrician neighbour showed me slight readings there, and I don't know how this would be possible but all my corrosion was around the door. No errant electricity is wanted near a boiler. I agree with the suggestion to raise it on the slab too. Another thing I always do when plumbing in the heat exch at the plenum is to Tee in a cross feed just before(and after) the valves. In the cross feed I install a full flow ball valve. When I have to leave during the heating season, I can leave my pump on so the lines don't freeze, without having to lose heat from my electric furnace. When yu do this ,however, you must crack the outlet valve on the exchanger just a bit to allow for expansion of the antefreeze in the coil. Good luck, sounds like you have all the right stuff.
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I've heard of the whole electric deal before... I know at different times different companies have recommended grounding the boiler, but it seemed to be something that came and gone.
Was your stove 304 or mild steel? I have a list of questions I'd like to ask in regards to that failure.
What temp was it ran at? Was it a model where the ledge tilted inward towards the firebox?
Every scenario is a chance to learn something....
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I know CB still recommends grounding their boilers (at least their conventionals), because one of the guys I talked to when I was shopping specifically mentioned it.
I have the stuff to do mine laying around here already, and was planning on grounding it. I can't see any downside, especially since I already have the parts to do it.
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I know CB still recommends grounding their boilers (at least their conventionals), because one of the guys I talked to when I was shopping specifically mentioned it.
I have the stuff to do mine laying around here already, and was planning on grounding it. I can't see any downside, especially since I already have the parts to do it.
I see no downside to it either... Better safe than sorry, you would think something sitting on concrete would already be grounded pretty good though
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I wish I had made the pad it sits on bigger and small walls built in so it sits a little higher. I also wish I had run an extra electrical line to the stove when I buried the piping for it. A big light behind the stove so I can see in it better when I am loading it. I hope to build a shed over it someday, it kinda sucks in the rain and snow but the 1200 dollar heating bill more than makes up for a little weather misery. I can drain and fill my tank from inside the cellar. I am also building a storage tank this summer to hold another 600 gallons of water. That way I can have a weekend away without refilling the stove in the winter. I put in all sorts of extra valves and shut offs for any expansions I might want in the future I could think of. Another regret is not running a digital temp from the stove to the inside of the house. Have to go outside to see the status of the stove. Could probably think of a bunch more stuff but the last one for this post is I would rather have a plate heat exchanger than a side arm for my hot water but was told they work great when I was installing it.
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What happens if it does get a little water or moisture in it ? You will heat the ground, like I did. Two dig ups. Then I got smart and put in the good stuff. I think the tile brakes down or it has small holes in it.
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I wish I used a pipe sleeve on the pex going through the foundation, and made the slab I put it on bigger, and added heat to the garage and in floor radiant heat in the kichten, if I had done it then I would not be working on it now.
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The one other thing I would do is to make sure I delivered a boiler water sample to the dealer at the start of each season so there is no question in the event of Warranty. This wasn't even mentined years ago although the dealer usually gave you a pint or so of crystalls to add at start up and would send you another pint in later years if you called and paid $15. Just checking my notes for Scott on my first Empyre CPW250 Serial#2500895, built 10/95 and installed by me and dealer 11/97. I added the corrosion inhibitoor 2 bottles at startup to a 50/50% enviro antefreese mix. Added one again at year 3 and another at startup of five. My pump ran year round and aquistat was 170 open/180 closed. 110 volt slenooid damper on the door, no creoste sticking and 15Amp circuit breaker never tripped. No moisture in firebox noted until leaks began around door early in year five. No luck with calls to the manufacturer but one employee said "must of been the shipment of "crap steel we got." Dealer gave me $200 out of his pocket to get a welder. I had stripped it to the leak at door, left front outside. He ground out the area and explained that it was a "cold start" during fabrication and welded it up well. Showed me another cold start at the right corner opposite and fixed that too and left to go 300 miles away to another job. Next morning I refill only to find the weld inside the top corner of the inside of the door split wide open for five inches. Likely caused by the heat generated by the repair weld. I climbed inside ,laying on my back doing the best vertical I ever done, laying a bead of 7018 and two fillets to sew it up. Later in that season another pinhole in weld nearby and start of sixth season another pinhole inside just above door in the middle of nowhere but there seemed t be metal there to weld a repair so I did. Shortly after a pinhole on boiler roof,inside door right of centre. Steel brushing showed too much corrsion to weld without a patch so I gave up.
Since there are lot of OWBs in my area of Northern Manitoba I acquired a 1991 Homesteader for free as long as I installed a 20KW boiler to replace it. I installed it originally and knew it had been totally abused and run on straight water with only the original inhibotor. Well it finally sprung a leak in 2012 and I patched it up to make it until spring. I then bought probably the last Homesteader and if it makes 21 years I will be happy. By the way ,I sold that Empyre to a fellow who tore it down for a pattern, used the frame/boody and welded his own thick stainless boiler. It is still going today but he is cursing me for not telling him that that design is prone to giving you a mouthful of smoke at fueling time.
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The other thing I missed when installing was to have some way to monitor the boiler temp from the house without walking to the attached garage. There must be some nice remote wireless thermometers now but I settled for an old mechanical heat guage from an old John Deere tractor and ran it from my laundry closet and taped the sensor to the line at my Heat Exch. Reads abut 5 degrees low but good enoough to let me (or the wife) know that there is time for one more cofee before the slippers come off and the bush packs get pulled on.