Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: whiteyford1 on February 18, 2013, 02:24:55 PM
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Hi
I'm semi-retired from doing forensic investigations and expert witness testimony for failed materials. I still do some problem solving and build specialized testing equipment for the FAA.
Now I run a small welding & fabrication business and have spent some time inside some late model E 08 - 2010 Central Boilers. I was called in to do field repairs, (5 holes in 1, 4in another) and found horrid looking steel. Honestly I have 140 year old Damascus pipe that’s been buried in the dirt at my cemetery that looks better the than that fire box plate. I cut a sample to send to a lab and I'll tell your right now it’s not boiler plate. Regardless of the results I"ll post them. However the plate is just part of the puzzle I'm working on. I've spent a few years developing my own version of a wood gas stove, so the more data I can collect the better.
I'm developing a hypothesis and would ask that anyone that has pics to share and brief details about their Central boiler issues to please post them here.
I put some of my prototype wood boilers out in 2011, I'm very interested in developing a wood gas boiler that can be used and abused like my old Taylor incinerator!
I understand stressing the low moisture content fuel to customers, and a few of the dos and don’ts, but really! Can it be that hard to build a good wood gas boiler?
YES & no, I'm not here to say folks are intentionally getting ripped off, but what scares me is that crummy warranty and refusing to stand behind premature failure. I guess that CB has no idea what's going on with their boilers and choose to go on the offensive with customers. 2 year old boilers with cracked welds should be few and far between. However when their steel exhibits major section loss,(100%) 2 years into service then blame the customer, I tend to get P Od. Rather than bash and blame I plan to get to the bottom of this. Maybe I'll be building the best gasification stove around in 5 years since CB is in a sink r swim situ right now. Who can afford a new 10K stove every 3 years?
I feel confident that if you already have one of these your stuck with a turd, even if the guy that sold it to you is the only one that loads and maintains it:)
Thank you
Randy Wimer
President of Lincoln Avenue Fabricators LLC
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Pretty much don't buy the bragged #1 so called stove. Same reason I didn't get a Central Cracker.
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whiteyford1 - Very interesting. I have the 2008 model E-2300. Last year I had 2 small leaks in corners. But I see a lot of pitting in the walls and ceiling of the firebox. A friend of mine has the same one and had to replace a large portion of the right side wall of the firebox last year. My biggest fail, so far, is the primary air channel. I ended up cutting out the back portion of the channel and installing my own design made of pipe and easily removable. I hope to get a few more years out of it. I'll get a few pictures put together maybe tomorrow. I'm kind of suprised there has not been a class action lawsuit on this model.
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a good friend of mine bought a cb 2 years ago after replacing a leaky 3year old owb. he's not going to be happy abount all the leak issues with cb. i myself have a 3 year old leaky shaver that they won't warranty
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I want to thank you all for the PMs and interest.
After reviewing my original post it appears I'm gunning for CB. The truth is I'm familiar with the internal configuration of the water tank and assume flow characteristics for the CB units. I have repaired others that were less than two years old, they were stainless fire boxes. Actually I'm interested in any stove info available, mainly premature scaling and firebox failure. If you happen to have a boiler over 20 years old {like me} perhaps you can share your details.
I just reviewed CB material comparison, carbon steel vs stainless. The stainless grades CB chooses to make comparisons with would be my last choice as well. There are other austenitic SS better suited for the application but I'm not on Team stainless yet.
As for the foam insulation CB touts, it didn't exist just a few years ago when I was on top of this stuff. As an engineer we used a mllion dollars worth of the stuff on I 80 for slab stabilization. At the time 90% closed cell performance was considered great,,,that means 10% is available for H2o
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The steel they show in there comparison is only 16 guage stainless from a hardy furnace. Stress corrosion is a possibility but there are many many hardy's over 20 years old in operation today. Empyre uses the same 304 in there deluxe line of stoves only they use 304 that is around 1/8" thick. They've been around a long time and seem to be tough as nails. There are many companies using 409 stainless, heatmaster, heatmor, and a couple other. Heatmaster has been around a good while, I've heard of hardly any issues with rusting or scaling in those, heatmor has also been around even longer using 304. I've saw several of them over 20 years old still going strong.
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Hi Scott
One of my prototype stoves replaced a 6 year old Hardy, sorry. I went to repair the Hardy and I could poke my hammer through the fire box in 8 places. It was in bad shape.
What most folks don't realize is that steels, including most stainless steels do not have to be remelted to alter their atomic lattice, crystal formation and grain size. Certain steels are affected at very low temps. Without getting into the woods to far, some basic steel making goes back to packing iron ore in charcoal, (hydrocarbon) and heating at high temps, (More Hydrocarbon) to effect the flow of carbon into the ore and let impurities escape. For instance, a particular steel and atmosphere inside a firebox can either add or diffuse the carbon content within a 300f degree range. So let's say a fire box goes through this cycle a thousand times in 2-3 years. What you end up with is not what you started with! The 309 and 310 (no L grades) are near the top of my materials list.
Thank you Randy
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Hi Scott
One of my prototype stoves replaced a 6 year old Hardy, sorry. I went to repair the Hardy and I could poke my hammer through the fire box in 8 places. It was in bad shape.
What most folks don't realize is that steels, including most stainless steels do not have to be remelted to alter their atomic lattice, crystal formation and grain size. Certain steels are affected at very low temps. Without getting into the woods to far, some basic steel making goes back to packing iron ore in charcoal, (hydrocarbon) and heating at high temps, (More Hydrocarbon) to effect the flow of carbon into the ore and let impurities escape. For instance, a particular steel and atmosphere inside a firebox can either add or diffuse the carbon content within a 300f degree range. So let's say a fire box goes through this cycle a thousand times in 2-3 years. What you end up with is not what you started with! The 309 and 310 (no L grades) are near the top of my materials list.
Thank you Randy
Is a36 grade carbon steel any good for these stoves?
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Hi Scott
One of my prototype stoves replaced a 6 year old Hardy, sorry. I went to repair the Hardy and I could poke my hammer through the fire box in 8 places. It was in bad shape.
What most folks don't realize is that steels, including most stainless steels do not have to be remelted to alter their atomic lattice, crystal formation and grain size. Certain steels are affected at very low temps. Without getting into the woods to far, some basic steel making goes back to packing iron ore in charcoal, (hydrocarbon) and heating at high temps, (More Hydrocarbon) to effect the flow of carbon into the ore and let impurities escape. For instance, a particular steel and atmosphere inside a firebox can either add or diffuse the carbon content within a 300f degree range. So let's say a fire box goes through this cycle a thousand times in 2-3 years. What you end up with is not what you started with! The 309 and 310 (no L grades) are near the top of my materials list.
Thank you Randy
Sorry? I'm just saying there are absolutely Thousands of them out there that have been basically trouble free. Yes there are some that do fail as with anything man made, and some companies have had far more failures than others. Replacing one hardy doesn't mean there all junk.
Also, I'm not trying to argue with you that the science behind what your saying is wrong, because I know that some if it is true, and I suspect the parts I don't know is truth are also facts.
I just don't think things are as and as you depict as far as the failures, yes there are some, and like I said some have far more than others. A lot of failures are brought on by the customer, that's why there is more and more rquiring primary and secondary loops or thermostatic valves keeping return temps proper.
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Hi Scott
Sorry I didn't mean to step on your toes there, I'm very open minded and always open to constructive debate. The facts you've presented are part of the reason I'm on here. What I'm suggesting is the new gassers create a different fire box atmosphere that directly impacts the material in a negative way. Never positive.
Why??? That's where my questions begin? Everything from the steel manufacturing process, grade, alloy content, quenching solution, heat affectected weld zones, hydrogen embritlement, diffusion, deformation, segregation and hydrocarbon atmospheres effects come to mind. Finally the end users habits. I'm curious, where is the inconsistency? Obviously, the end user is to blame?????? currently. Wouldn't it be great to tell a customer yea, 10 -15 years if you don't take care of it double that if ya do.
Instead of 2 and 6.
Please bear with me as I get up to speed on the industry and subject.
Thank you
Randy
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Hi Scott
Sorry I didn't mean to step on your toes there, I'm very open minded and always open to constructive debate. The facts you"ve presented are part of the reason I'm on here. What I'm suggesting is the new gassers create a different fire box atmosphere that directly impacts the material in a negative way. Never positive.
Why??? That's where my questions begin? Everything from the steel manufacturing process, grade, alloy content, quenching solution, heat affectected weld zones, hydrogen embritlement, diffusion, deformation, segregation and hydrocarbon atmospheres effects come to mind. Finally the end users habits. I'm curious, where is the inconsistency? Obviously, the end user is to blame?????? currently. Wouldn't it be great to tell a customer yea, 10 -15 years if you don't take care of it double that if ya do.
Instead of 2 and 6.
Please bear with me as I get up to speed on the industry and subject.
Thank you
Randy
Ur not stepping on my toes, I know that there are a lot of issues with gasification furnaces in general. It's a whole other animal. When a stove fails in only a couple years, it is rarely the users fault.
I saw 1 stove fail in less than a year on a customer heating his swimming pool, it was a gassifier but he had return water temps coming back the exact temperature as his pool water was, it was literally raining inside his firebox.
Then there is the other side of this debate, these larger companies know that they "could" build a better product, but they know they have to build something within a price range, so I think they honestly build the stove to the best of the ability to keep the price range where it needs to be. The 2300 for example, I don't feel that was anything intentional, I doubt you do either. There was a lot of unforeseen issues there.
I think the added costs of building a better stove could easily push prices to where it simply wasn't feasible for the consumer level, you remind me of my dad who was involved with the rail road and govt specs and he fails to realize that consumer level products can't be made to the quality of an industrial unit or it would never be affordable. I'm not saying you think exactly like him lol but I think the changes your thinking would build a better stove, but at what cost???
If you were to go on your own, you better have money to burn because to get your products through testing from ul and the EPA costs a boo coo, and even then you have be able to compete with the hype, propaganda, and mass advertising of some of the ones who have been around forever. Selling your ideas may be a better idea, but if the company can't see it on there bottom line, there not goin to care one way or the other.
I see instances all the time where I "know" what would work better and why, but to convince someone else that when most things on the Internet tell them differently, that's a Job lol
Look forward to hearing your ideas
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Just let me know when you figure it out :-)
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Hi Johny
Some seek knowledge of a wise man, others seek what the wise man seeks.
Which one are you?
:)
Have an awesome day!
Randy
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Just let me know when you figure it out :-)
This guy is very smart.
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This is gettin ready to go to a whole other level.... It ain't gonna be purdy...
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This is gettin ready to go to a whole other level.... It ain't gonna be purdy...
You got that right! Should be quite a show before all is said and done! Eatin' my popcorn and sippin' a beverage waitin' for the fireworks to begin! ;)
Purdy? Seriously, you must be from Kentucky. Everyone knows it's spelled Purdee ;D
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This is gettin ready to go to a whole other level.... It ain't gonna be purdy...
You got that right! Should be quite a show before all is said and done! Eatin' my popcorn and sippin' a beverage waitin' for the fireworks to begin! ;)
Purdy? Seriously, you must be from Kentucky. Everyone knows it's spelled Purdee ;D
Oh I'm just waiting, I know one guy who's not going to like it at all. Then the wise man quote, that was like putting the butter on my popcorn
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Just let me know when you figure it out :-)
This guy is very smart.
Pretty amazing guy indeed. A quick google search shows he owns a 2 year old trucking company with 2 trucks and 4 employees in PA.
Now he is a forum OWF manufacturing expert and metallurgist with all the answers, calling out OWF companies that have been in the business for years and readers here can't wait to give him their hard earned money.
I think a lot of good points have been made so far in this thread. The gassers are another animal because of a damper and potentially more corrosive firebox enviroment making regular maintenance even more important, with the reward of less wood usage and lower emissions, which Randy's fine state of PA and 8 others have already made mandatory. Scott's comment about building a boiler within a price range that the common man can afford and justify makes sense to me. As far as warranties go, when push comes to shove, I don't think any manufacture has a bumper to bumper no questions asked warranty. The owner has some accountabilty with all purchased products.
I have a great history with my CB OWF, as others also do with their proven established companies OWF's.
Good luck in your OWF company start up. You'd better move fast as it seems EPA is gunning for these mfg's and products.
"The Wise Man builds his house upon the Rock, while the Foolish Man builds his house upon the Sand"
Hey Scott, how about a little more salt & butter on that popcorn, LOL?
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Boilerman
Hey isn't google great! If you want any further clarification my business venture please call my personal cell 724 992 2875
For those that won't pick up the phone boilerman is right on...looks like DOT compliance for 2 of my welding trucks implies I'm a truck driver,,,guess so,,,,, since 50% of my business is portable work. Gotta drive one of them this morning to a 10 year old CB, 409 plate on this one. This is not the type of work I enjoy. I do like meeting anyone with a chainsaw and a wood pile. Says a lot about a man.
Oh Ill spare you the entire resume, 400 million civil projects, 30 million in forensic investigation, 2.2 million since starting my business,,,, one month before 51% of the idiot's, (medical IQ term) voted Big 0 in the first time.
I got my stimulus from President Reagan when he invested in defense. Mine was in the form of a JOB and experience. Not an unemployment check and a warm couch.
Oh, if you have a son or grandson riding around in an M1A1 Abrams Tank there's a 50% chance my welds are keeping em safe. I worked on about half of the 8000 or so manufactured, I installed the heavy armour, secret stuff.
If you ever saw the largest dragline in PA? Yea I was there, 1of 4 x ray welders on the boom.
Ever drove over the 1.2 mile, I 79 Neville Island Bridge in Pittsburgh, Just 2.2 million in repairs and worked with Lehigh University investigating a few failed welds.
Pennsylvania Transportaion Institute, Penn State University, 12 million, Superpave in Situ Stess
Strain Investigation and report.
Oh and just for fun; 1994 Toughman Contest runner up. I didn't see "Boilerman" on the card that weekend.
So no I'm not an expert on wood boilers, I'm not a metallurgist, I'm not here to sell anything to members. I do plan to offer a free guide for selecting a unit based on my opinion and supported by facts. I hope to collect as much info as possible.
Scott, you touched on a very important aspect, cost/benefit. MY Experience; I can build a unit for around
$ 3.00/lb with a small profit 7-10% (My steel cost is about $0.65/lb) Check that against what's in your back yard. A 1600lb boiler for $9500.00 = $6/lb.
BTW thank you for the kind words in mentioning your father and I in the same sentence. Some of us just gotta know how things work. Looks like it's time to make some sausage!
Randy
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OK :o. Hope you get some calls :D
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Hey if the dude wants to do the research and development, I'll read what he has to say. I'll bet I have read way more boring research reports and less informative too. I don't have to buy anything. But it may give me insight on what to expect from my boiler in a few years. He seems much smarter than the engineers I work with that claim to be experts. At least he can put a sentence together, that is more than the idiots I work with. Most of mine have never seen field work, but by their calculations it should work.
Hopefully I will never be able to send you pics of my leaky boiler, whitey
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This is gettin ready to go to a whole other level.... It ain't gonna be purdy...
You got that right! Should be quite a show before all is said and done! Eatin' my popcorn and sippin' a beverage waitin' for the fireworks to begin! ;)
Purdy? Seriously, you must be from Kentucky. Everyone knows it's spelled Purdee ;D
Oh I'm just waiting, I know one guy who's not going to like it at all. Then the wise man quote, that was like putting the butter on my popcorn
:post: :post: :post:
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This is gettin ready to go to a whole other level.... It ain't gonna be purdy...
You got that right! Should be quite a show before all is said and done! Eatin' my popcorn and sippin' a beverage waitin' for the fireworks to begin! ;)
Purdy? Seriously, you must be from Kentucky. Everyone knows it's spelled Purdee ;D
Oh I'm just waiting, I know one guy who's not going to like it at all. Then the wise man quote, that was like putting the butter on my popcorn
:post: :post: :post:
Its always the guy that repairs the stoves that knows the most. Just my 2 cents
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Central Boiler 6048 weighs around 2500 pounds.
$3 bucks a pound, $7500. Keep in mind that's not went through a distributor or dealer at this point. Yes you could sell them yourself but to move many units it takes a network, and a network has to be able to make a profit. 7% profit would be $525, I must say that's not much for you or for anyone, especially when the numbers your used go dealing with are millions
I'm willing to bet that CB has 1/3 of that in there 6048.
I have seen papers that i shouldn't have seen before, from a large owb company. They were not even making there own stoves, but for example they had $3100 in a stove that retailed for right at $7000. Once again, they didn't even build it, they had it made.
So using what I do know as far as the prices I've seen, $3100 to $7000. Lets use 2.25 as a rough figure, and at 3 dollars a pound the 6048 would cost $7500, x 2.25 by the time it gets to the customer, $16,875
I know this is all hypothetical, but it does put into perspective the margins there working with to market, distribute, and get there products into dealers hands and to the end user.
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You go Randy, I`ll read what you have to say. I like the guy!
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Thanks pitcrew, I'm headed back to that leaking CB today, Ill get some pics.
BTW can anyone explain the severe deterioration near the loading door and front corners on these 2300/2400 stoves. I can, anyone else have a guess? It might be worth a million dollars if you do. I'm sure there are others that may know but who would want to deflate stock in the entire market for these gassers.
One hint; never ever run one of these low on water, 10-20 hrs of high heat and hydrogen atmospheres will ruin the fire box depending on the material///including stainless. Some sort of auto shut down should be included on gassers to protect the box. When removing bad plate from some of these I've seen 1/4 water levels indicated by a line stained in the outer tank. These had good door seal but no frame left to seal against, so maaaybe the extra air is making extra heat? Good luck and any winners will get a gift certificate to Chicfillet.
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Whitey, I find it ironic you have one or the crappiest made stoves I've personally dealt with in my area. It's a common theme around here folks trying to repair leaks in them, had 2 guys here this fall who both were replacing a good portion of the water jacket, both were here buying treatment to put in after they filled it back up. If I remember correctly one stove was 5 years old and the other 6-7.
While at the national farm machinery show last week I stopped by the Taylor booth numerous times just to get a chuckle lookin at the welds. They were high school shop class quality at best, they were rarely even and often times nearly all on one side or the other. I asked the guy working the booth if that was normal and he said he thought they were good, just not real pretty. Then we walked over to the other model they had there, it was worse. My dad was a welding inspector for CSX railroad most of his life and he said those welds would never even pass in a box car just designed to haul anything, ,much less handle heat and hold water.
Once again, not saying anything negative towards you, maybe Taylor used to be better made, but in my business and from my experience Taylor seems highly problematic as far as welds and corrosion. The central boiler and other brands I service seem to have far less issues
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Whitey, I have a CB E-classic 1400. This is my second season heating with it. I am anal at keeping the firebox as clean as I can and keeping the water nitrites and ph levels where they belong. Plus, I thoroughly clean it and cap the chimney before putting it bed for the summer. However, I am very much interested in hearing what you have to offer.
To answer your question regarding an auto shutdown - mine has an automatic shutdown if the water temps hit 200. It has happened once to me and that was my fault. I tried adding wood to it while the fire roaring and with the water temps already at 195, it didn't take long for it to climb over 200. The manual says a little about it that it is designed to help protect the unit. What I did to help remedy the overheating problem, I cranked up the thermostats in the house to pull the heat out of it. Thankfully it was a cold and windy day and I live in an old farmhouse built somewhere around the 1840's, so it didn't take long for the water temp to drop below 200. Roger
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The gassers I carry have a high limit switch of 190
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Thanks pitcrew, I'm headed back to that leaking CB today, Ill get some pics.
BTW can anyone explain the severe deterioration near the loading door and front corners on these 2300/2400 stoves. I can, anyone else have a guess? It might be worth a million dollars if you do. I'm sure there are others that may know but who would want to deflate stock in the entire market for these gassers.
One hint; never ever run one of these low on water, 10-20 hrs of high heat and hydrogen atmospheres will ruin the fire box depending on the material///including stainless. Some sort of auto shut down should be included on gassers to protect the box. When removing bad plate from some of these I've seen 1/4 water levels indicated by a line stained in the outer tank. These had good door seal but no frame left to seal against, so maaaybe the extra air is making extra heat? Good luck and any winners will get a gift certificate to Chicfillet.
Amazing, you already know more than a company that has been building OWF's for 29 years with a state of the art building and test lab from the looks of their site video.
I burned a Classic 5648 for 7 years. Firebox looked like new when I sold it to my neighbor who is still heating his home with it.
I'm on my 3rd winter with my Eclassic 2400....no rust, no problems....awesome unit.
I've helped my CB dealer buddy with an occasional install and few service calls, so I know a little about the CB models.
Believe it or not, most problems "are" caused by poor owner operation and lack of maintenance. You wouldn't believe some of the neglect and miss use I've seen.
A gasser burns down and throws the heat into the lower chamber, so the upper firebox burns cooler than traditional models and can hold a damp creosote buildup.
If not scraped off and allowed to bond to the walls/corners/etc. It can create excellerated corrosion issues.
The front corners and back side of the door frame are not easily seen, so I think some owners forget to clean and scrape these areas, which could lead to corrosion problems.
I think Scott as an OWF dealer has seen some owner neglect issues too.
Now, if for some reason the water level were to drop 3 inches or so, the Eclassic has a low water sensor that will shut everything down.
It also has a 200 degree high limit that will also shut it down.
A thermostatic valve is also required to be used between the supply return lines of each loop so if the boiler water drops from 170-150 water will gradually be returned direct to OWF holding water temp above 150 not shocking or condensing firebox walls, causing more acidic wet ash and creosote.
I'll take the million dollars......you can keep your chicfillet gift certificate.
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I would like to thank all the regulars for commenting here, I was starting to think my e1400, might be a ticking time bomb.
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I would like to thank all the regulars for commenting here, I was starting to think my e1400, might be a ticking time bomb.
It is a ticking time bomb, you just don't know it yet....LOL
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Johnny, just always do your best maintenance you can...
Boilerman, yea it is incredible the neglect we see, people are to lazy to do anything it seems sometimes
I recently tested my empyre xt 100 to see how long it would go before clogging the tubes.... I let her go for 7 weeks with 0 cleaning, 1 tube did clog, 2 more partially closed off, but I was still able to get it clean with the brush, I think that's impresssive considering the fact I was using no additives, if I were using the proformer, perhaps I could have went 10-12 weeks....
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Hey thanks again to everyone for contributing. Let's get caught up; Taylor 750 1992 s, purchased used 06, $ 2000/7= 286/year and getting better, manadatory 2hrs maint. Time/ year. I know its a pig using 9 or 10 cord a year.
Water levels; My point is make sure the fire box is submerged 100% of the time. Some liquid temp sensors require liquid on them to be accurate.
Boilerman; no offense but your playing checkers,,,I'm playing chess. You skipped right over the answer. Unfortunately there is nothing any dealer can sell to fix this. Remember this pertains to gassers.
Here's some 9 year old stainless, patched up at the factory, see pen in pic, I repaired a 4 places on it. It'l need more work within two years. 5500 investested + 600 for repairs 6100 /10 = $610/ year HMM. Customers fight with justifying an investment, just like my customer yesterday, salesman told him 20 years then went out of business. It would be fine if the longevity curve was growing but it's not. Gotta go spend my weekend repairing a drill rig derrick ahh fun work!
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The dealer isn't the one who writes the warranty, if the customer had kept his treatment levels proper every year cb would be paying you instead of him paying you. Regardless of the dealer, cb is still in business
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Is this thread some kind of joke or something? What do you think is going to happen if you continue to fire your boiler if it is low on water? Let the water chemistry get out of wack and guess what? Hmm.....,,, I wonder what will happen if I never clean the ashes out and let rain come down the chimney all summer? Nice pen by the way >:D.
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Woodman; woodman how convenient that you noticed the pen. Yea you get a free one when you buy em 100 at a time:)). From what I've seen most stoves have a visual level gauge and won't circulate if the level gets below the pickup tube. I'm just saying watch you water level closely.
As far as jokes go not here.
I'm here to help anyone who has concerns, issues and to let the dealers and manufacturers know someone is educating their customers.
Of course the dealers are educated by the company and really honestly believe what theyre told.
So its no joke, the people that buy these typically don't park the mercedes next to the woodshed. Be it for a dollar or a dime we all work hard for our money. The big guys don't care, obvious in the way they compete to write the crumiest warranty. How about you dealers get some extra units ready on trailers for emergencies and warranty work. Poor old fella yesterday is froze up solid till things thaw out and had buy 1200 in fuel to get by.
No joke! The only way I would buy one of these is if my dealer promised to provide a back up system within 24 hrs if it goes to crap.
How about that 10k stove, lease it to me (not lease to buy) for say $10,000/120 months 10 years = $83.00/month Charge me an even hundred and and the dealer does whatever maint is required and earn another 20%. That puts performance and maint. back on the people bragging about thier stove and takes all the lazy fire tenders out of the picture.
I would encourage anyone to actually negotiate some "what if's" into the purchase. Oops gotta run another one bit the dust.
Randy
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You know at first I was giving you benefit of the doubt, now you seem so out of touch with reality that its not worth the debate anymore.
Water gets below the level of the supply!? Do what, in "most" stoves that would mean you've lost about 80% of your water.
How about this? How about you it your money where your mouth is??? You build a company and do your lease program, I wanna see how that turns out for ya.
You've made claims against a lot and then openly admit, your learning the industry, and that you don't like this kind of work.
Do you not realize how outrageous it sounds to pop up out of the blue as the savior? To think that out of all these million dollar companies that they've just not been lucky enough to find someone like you?
Did you lease your Taylor!? Did someone promise you a backup within 24 hours?
Building what ifs into the warranty/deal? Here is a what if, hey customer, "if" you neglect to treat your water, if you neglect to have it tested, if you do nothing that is required of you as part of the agreement in which the warranty states, then don't be bugging me about it if the company don't stand behind it. That's as silly as thinking a car manufacturer should honor cars in which there owners never change the oil for 100k, it ain't reality. Anytime there is a warranty, there is some responsibility on the part of the customer, like it or not.
"If" the customer has held up there end of the agreement, and they have issues, I will go to bat for them and hold my 200k dollar order over there head until there taken care of. Once again, no we the dealers should not stock stoves simply because one might fail, we aren't the ones writing the warranties, that's the job of the manufacturer. It is the dealers roll to assist the customer in dealing with the company to resolve the issues at hand. At the same time, if the customer has done there part, and the company knows it and I have another stove like that on my yard, I'll work with the company to replace it with one I have, but not if its 7 years down the road and there warranty is 60% coverage at that point.
This whole "another one bites the dust", some seek the wise and others want what the wise man has", is nothing short of total arrogance, backed up by some pics of you welding on a stove. As far as central worrying about you "educating there customers", what are they gonna say, hey I read a post from a guy online who welded armor on tanks and worked on some bridge jobs and he says ur a crook and an idiot, yep, I see that going real far......
If your truly interested in why some stoves fail, do a lot of reading, there is more going on than simply bad welds or poor steel, there are bad companies, don't get me wrong, but everything just isn't black and white, so far I feel you do have a good idea of steel and welding practices, but not so much the hydronic/water side of it. Most definitely not the business side of it, central boiler don't build stoves to help ol buddy boy out, there in business, business exists when someone has a need and you build something to fulfill that need, and turn a profit doing so. If you build things that are crap, it will come back on you, people will quit buying your products and the free market will help dictate what people are spending there money on..
Oops, gotta go, another happy customer walked in with his neighbor to buy a stove, "sounds hideous don't it".
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WOW I see what popcorn was about now!
First I like fixing things, most appreciate what I do for them and I make a new friend, but then I don't like eating dirt. So 2++ and 1-
What do you call the pump circut taking the hot water to the house? I call it a supply line?I suppose what I call the fill line could b.....?
I know my local dealer and friend feels like he's been hung out to dry by CB. He knows the conditions of these gassers and told me to be on call, honest engine.
After getting into repairing these gasification boilers, I reviewed an old paper done for the dept of defense regarding the quantum physics of atomic hydrogen, hydrogen isotopes, heat and pressure on steel and alloys. Then I realized that all the stuff sold to,"guarantee the longest life from your stove" likely does very little for the first thing to fail, the fire box, usually 80% of the time. Still maintain ph and inhibitor.
Every action performed on steel and most stainless; bend, roll, cut, or weld it, hydrogen is added. Remember the Hindenburg, its bad. Now expose that steel to heat cycles and time Take a look at yesterdays pics I posted of 409 Stainless/9 years old. The blue heat line from factory welding is still visible with the leaks dead in the center of the heat line /weld. Note weld is on the opposite side.
Chickfillet question of the day: what metal is enhanced inside a wood boiler fire box? -0- I win.
Your move?
Randy
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Most supply lines are located about 12" above the bottom of the water jacket, if they've lost that much water, they'd know it
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Ahh that's where they enter the stove, internally the hottest water is at the high water level, the ones I've disected pull hot water from 4-6 inches below the high water level???
Thanks Randy
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off topic question maybe?
my brother in law has had a CB (non gasser) for about 12 years..ii would say not a good "maintence man"
and he has never had a leak, his stove sits outside and the only thing that has ever happened to it as far as i know is the blower fan rusted off and he had to repair that (not a big deal)
is he doing something right (by not doing anything at all) or is he just a lucky SOB
i have seen all brands in my area have hard luck early in thier usage and like my brother in law i have seen some go for what seems like forever
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Ahh that's where they enter the stove, internally the hottest water is at the high water level, the ones I've disected pull hot water from 4-6 inches below the high water level???
Thanks Randy
Well none of the stoves I carry do that.. Pulling hot water at the top and returning cold at the bottom does nothing to promote circulation inside the water jacket, if you have 170 degree water at the top and 130 at the bottom your gonna have some big problems fast...
Most stoves I've seen have the returns at the top, supply lines at the bottom for this very reason.... That in itself could make stoves last a lot longer...
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off topic question maybe?
my brother in law has had a CB (non gasser) for about 12 years..ii would say not a good "maintence man"
and he has never had a leak, his stove sits outside and the only thing that has ever happened to it as far as i know is the blower fan rusted off and he had to repair that (not a big deal)
is he doing something right (by not doing anything at all) or is he just a lucky SOB
i have seen all brands in my area have hard luck early in thier usage and like my brother in law i have seen some go for what seems like forever
The water treatment would have no adverse affects, initial water quality could be helping him as much as anything. My thoughts anyways lol
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I realize some stoves have some trick internal plumbing. I have used a temp gun on a few stoves to check water jacket temp, 40 degrees bottom to top difference was typical. Also I think it was an 80s Aqua II I disected put an internal domestic hot water coil internally and placed it mid point in the tank I guess since it didn't have to be as hot. Just my 2cents.
Randy
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I realize some stoves have some trick internal plumbing. I have used a temp gun on a few stoves to check water jacket temp, 40 degrees bottom to top difference was typical. Also I think it was an 80s Aqua II I disected put an internal domestic hot water coil internally and placed it mid point in the tank I guess since it didn't have to be as hot. Just my 2cents.
Randy
This is where things take down s different path. If there is water colder than 136 degrees making contact with the water jacket,that allows moisture found in the fuel we burn to gather in those spots, not all of it but some. 100 pounds of wood. 30% water, that's 30 pounds of water that has to go out the stack, if there are surfaces inside the firebox cooler than 136, some of that moisture gathers there, the moisture combined with ash and creates an acid that can eat things up fast. That'd why cb requires boiler protection systems, to make sure return temps are above 140 to keep cold spots from forming allowing condensation inside the firebox.
That's also why you see issues around the doors, the door doesn't have 180 degree water around it, it has air that may be -20, creating a cool spot for moisture to gather and bond with ash and cause problems
Hope that helps, stuff like that, is where some real problems exist
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This don't just apply to wood boilers, all boilers have forms of boiler protection to make sure internal temps and return temps are staying above 140, it's the whole purpose of primary and secondary loops
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Wonder if CB will give me a valve? I did not install it my dealer said I did not need it it was to help prevent things from getting too cold if the fire goes out, never said cold= holes
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Wonder if CB will give me a valve? I did not install it my dealer said I did not need it it was to help prevent things from getting too cold if the fire goes out, never said cold= holes
your warranty has already been voided by the central boiler manual.. Your dealer don't understand the purpose of the valve apparently
Cold most definitely equal corrosion and ultimately holes and failure. I saw a boiler that was heating a swimming pool fail within 1 year because the return temps were whatever the pool temp was, the stove was destroyed...
I'm sure central will sake you a valve, but since "according to the manual" your warranty has already been voided I'd go to him .. Show him in the manual where it's required.
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Now, hmm how does that explain the hole in the top center of the fire box I repaired yesterday. This would be the hottest spot in the box.
Now be honest, has the control valve made an improvement toward longevity? I agree it couldn't hurt on a boiler with erratic demands. But that's another cost that I feel likely isn't neccesary for most. But it does add one more ut o in the warranty.
Hate to sound arrogant but its a solution for a problem that barely exists.
Sounds like some folks know warranty language like I know hydrogen embrittlement. I'm only sharing 40% of the answer with the hydrogen.
Had a mystery similar to this a few years back. Ill look for the 20" schedule 40 burner tube pic. 5 feet of it I could pulverize with a 2lb hammer. Literally fell apart.
Did I mention working for Ingersoll Rand pump services group providing support at nuc power plants. That's sort of where I came up with the leasing not to buy plan. Ingersoll wouldn't sell the ccw pumps only lease with service included 10 year lease$$$$. So good you can't buy it, what a concept.
Googler's alert;
Oh that's Ingersoll Rand in Charlotte, NC ask for Richard when you call.
Randy
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I don't think that anyone was implying that was the reason for all failures, but it does lead to the failure of some. One pic or instance doesnt discount why cb or empyre and now more and more companies are requiring boiler protection systems..
It's nothing new, primary and secondary loops have been around for as long as boilers have..
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The 3/8" gas pipeline firebox is looking pretty good right now
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Just let me know when you figure it out :-)
Hey johny, I figured it out!
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Hi All
Thank you again for all the interest and PM.
Here some pics from earlier research I've decided to share. 1200 hrs of "exposure", 20" schedule 40 steel pipe.
Re Gassers only!
I promised to post results from testing done on CB firebox sample plates but from a legal stand point I'm safer providing an opinion.
The good news; Interesting trace elements were revealed indicating some thought went into material selection. The sad news; results also reinforced my theory behing the infrequent yet major stumbling block of premature firebox failure. I would like material samples from any stove anyone has repaired, samples should be at least the size of a playing card. PM me for more info. A broader data field is needed to reinforce my theory.
I hate a pain in the ass that just points out problems so I have the solution for building a firebox that lasts 20 years. It's for sale today for 2 million dollars. Don't be second in line.
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