Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: automan77 on March 02, 2013, 07:04:55 AM
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Anyone ever use this Z supply 3 or 5 wrap pex?
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yes! I used the 3 wrap on my install and i am only losing about 1 deg in a 60 foot run! Ridgewood didn't offer the 5 wrap when i bought my pipe!
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Yes, I used it from my house to my outdoor hot tub, about 50 feet but have only had it for a couple years. No complaints from my experience, I brought each end up out of the ground a bit and sealed with their flanges to try to ensure no exterior water could get in the "conduit", also my ground water is not a problem in the area where I buried it. This product has been discussed here before and people have questioned the ability of water to possibly lay in the pipe, or condensate in the pipe but i have had no problems with this run and my return temps are consistent, I have gauges on supply and return in the house, also there is no snow melting above my run and it is fairly shallow (about 2'). I used the 5 wrap.
They only started making 5 wrap this year so you either have 3 wrap or another brand.
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still leaning towards thermopex but my wallet is not. I just dont want no problems
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still leaning towards thermopex but my wallet is not. I just dont want no problems
Ditch preparation is more important than the pipe.... If you have sharp rocks both will eventually fail..
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mostly good old clay in my yard.
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The z-supply 5 wrap probably will have less heat loss than the thermopex.
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I'm gonna see what kind of price craig from ridgewood can give me on the 5 wrap
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I'm gonna see what kind of price craig from ridgewood can give me on the 5 wrap
I've got it for $7.15 w/free shipping if you can't get a better deal there
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thats for the 5 wrap?
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Yes sir.... I like it a little better than the z stuff as well, the tile is much tougher
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Scott, would a guy be able to pull that 5 wrap stuff through a 6" pvc?
I'm planning on replacing my thermopex this summer, as it is thawing the ground in two spots. I have access to 200' of FREE 6" pvc, so I thought I'd put the 5 wrap inside the pvc. Any thoughts?
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Scott, would a guy be able to pull that 5 wrap stuff through a 6" pvc?
I'm planning on replacing my thermopex this summer, as it is thawing the ground in two spots. I have access to 200' of FREE 6" pvc, so I thought I'd put the 5 wrap inside the pvc. Any thoughts?
Sounds like a great idea to me.. I am most certain it will go through it without the tile, not sure with the tile though. I would think doing it that way would be one tough package as long as you had it all sealed good, which I know you would
The 5 wrap I carry in test lost 3.1 degrees in a 500' loop flowing 5gpm.
0.62 degree heat loss per 100'
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It is 5-3/4" OD so if it is straight it should go through.
The Z-supply 5 wrap testing had .48 degree temp drop per 100 feet.
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It is 5-3/4" OD so if it is straight it should go through.
The Z-supply 5 wrap testing had .48 degree temp drop per 100 feet.
I know but I had a bad experience with it a while back.. I was carrying a roll of it with my forklift and dropped it, it just landed in the driveway. I stood it up and looked not expecting to see anything, but I found a lot of gravel imprints and 2 little holes where it actually poked through.. Just from a fall in the driveway, it made me leery of it, but could have been a freak thing
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Are they using the same white tile for the 5 wrap?
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Same but larger diameter I think. I haven't gotten any of it yet. I am going to do my own testing in it.
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Same but larger diameter I think. I haven't gotten any of it yet. I am going to do my own testing in it.
10-4. Let me know what you find out yourself.
I installed probably a tractor trailer load of it over the past 2 years. I haven't had any complaints or problems, just the incident in the driveway. I'm not saying I'd never sell it again or anything like that, it just made me a little nervous as you can imagine
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Looks like for the price its between the Badger or the z-supply. When putting this pipe in the ground should i put a base of sand down and then over the top to protect from rocks
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Looks like for the price its between the Badger or the z-supply. When putting this pipe in the ground should i put a base of sand down and then over the top to protect from rocks
If you have any rocks in your soil I think it's an excellent idea
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Just watched Jeff's video on z supply, I was thinking it was gonna get real good but he never mentioned any of the foam filled products in the film, I think maybe in some way that may hurt his products appeal if someone watched that video trying to decide whether to buy foam filled vs wrapped lines..
He did have some good points though especially in regards to the radiant barriers...
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its not to rocky but i might do it just to be safe.
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its not to rocky but i might do it just to be safe.
No reason not to, it's just some added insurance
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Does Badger have a website i cant seem to find it. See a bunch on ebay.
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They do but i haven't looked at in a year or two, no info there I don't think
They primarily deal with dealers not the public
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can you get me some info on that badger pipe?
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do a google on badger underground pipe or maybe the link below will work
www.pr.com/press-release/342081 (http://www.pr.com/press-release/342081)
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There is some for sale on eBay right now that sells for $1000.00 for 150'. Would that be Badger or Z-Supply, or neither one?
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That's the Badger 5 wrap
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RSI have you tested the Z 3 wrap pipe. I have an 85 foot run of this in a trench at a depth of about 2.5 to 3 feet and I am seeing quite a bit of snow melt over the trench. My yard is all sand and ground water is at a 5 foot so I know it is not getting wet. I am running a Grundfos 15-58 at medium speed. Boiler set at 185 and 175. Also I am seeing a lot of heat exchange between the supply and return lines.
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I haven't yet.
Is there any chance you got water inside the outer pipe? How old is it? What kind of boiler do you have?
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The pex is 2 years old and is 1 inch. The boiler is a Crown Royal.
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Did it melt the snow right away or start after a while? Are you sure it is Z supply brand or could it possibly be another brand?
Is it down hill to either the boiler or house, or is the lowest point somewhere in between? If lower outside, is it possible to dig a hole at the lowest point to check it?
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The pex is 2 years old and is 1 inch. The boiler is a Crown Royal.
Is the shell white?
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Our main reason for choosing white is quality control. If a black pipe has a hole from the manufacturer or shipping, it is very easy to miss. But with our pipe, a hole will stand out like a sore thumb. This helps both of us avoid the disaster of a waterlogged system.
the above quote is direct from thier web site...pretty much tells you that if a stone were to rub through or you cracked it on installation you are pretty much screwed...they are admitting a small hole and you will have a water logged system
it does not matter where your pipe is in the ground...above the water table? ground water must pass through the soil around your pipe to get to the water table below..once water starts to get in, it is never drying out yo pay 10 grand or more for a good gasser and then cheap out on pipes that are wrapped with insualtion that has only a millimeter or two of protection to keep it working? maybe i am entirely wrong but i think the closed cell is worth the extra money..i know personally in a 250 foot run i saved 4 cords of wood a year compared to my first "cheapo" pipes
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Our main reason for choosing white is quality control. If a black pipe has a hole from the manufacturer or shipping, it is very easy to miss. But with our pipe, a hole will stand out like a sore thumb. This helps both of us avoid the disaster of a waterlogged system.
the above quote is direct from thier web site...pretty much tells you that if a stone were to rub through or you cracked it on installation you are pretty much screwed...they are admitting a small hole and you will have a water logged system
it does not matter where your pipe is in the ground...above the water table? ground water must pass through the soil around your pipe to get to the water table below..once water starts to get in, it is never drying out yo pay 10 grand or more for a good gasser and then cheap out on pipes that are wrapped with insualtion that has only a millimeter or two of protection to keep it working? maybe i am entirely wrong but i think the closed cell is worth the extra money..i know personally in a 250 foot run i saved 4 cords of wood a year compared to my first "cheapo" pipes
If your closed cell polyurethane foam pipe gets a hole in it or cracks it will get water logged too.
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Our main reason for choosing white is quality control. If a black pipe has a hole from the manufacturer or shipping, it is very easy to miss. But with our pipe, a hole will stand out like a sore thumb. This helps both of us avoid the disaster of a waterlogged system.
the above quote is direct from thier web site...pretty much tells you that if a stone were to rub through or you cracked it on installation you are pretty much screwed...they are admitting a small hole and you will have a water logged system
it does not matter where your pipe is in the ground...above the water table? ground water must pass through the soil around your pipe to get to the water table below..once water starts to get in, it is never drying out yo pay 10 grand or more for a good gasser and then cheap out on pipes that are wrapped with insualtion that has only a millimeter or two of protection to keep it working? maybe i am entirely wrong but i think the closed cell is worth the extra money..i know personally in a 250 foot run i saved 4 cords of wood a year compared to my first "cheapo" pipes
If your closed cell polyurethane foam pipe gets a hole in it or cracks it will get water logged too.
Exactly.... And as far as heat loss, there are wrapped lines that out perform foam according to the numbers we've seen. I think rsi's test will confirm all of this as well
One of our most respected members "Marty" will be digging up his water logged thermopex this spring, he says the foam acted exactly like a sponge
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i wont dispute it will take on moisture slightly..the closed cell is quite resistant (not water proof) and will absorb (i think) some moisture at a crack but it not likley will move the entire length of the pipe like the wrapped stuff. when i do my sons run i will use the foam filled stuff with the thickest outer jacket i can buy and i will also run it inside another plastice tile to help prtect it from any rubbing stones due to fros movement.
closed cell foam is used in flowtation devices and in insulating outside foundations and under cement slabs...i have never been told to use any of that wrapped stuff for these applications and i know what happened to my own (wrapped) lines..i think i got three or 4 years out of them then i went from 8 cords for a winter to 12 and had a 3 foot wide walkway all winter 250 feet long...it did make for easy access to the wood shed. until my foam filled lines fail..i will continue to believe in them. i have yet to see anyone on this forum (or www.owbinfo.com (http://www.owbinfo.com)) come here and complain about melted snow that have used these types of lines...i have seen many on here (and there) complain of failure with the wrapped lines (perhaps it was installed wrong) but i think the ratio of failed foam lines and failed wrapped lines are no where close to one another?
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The outer jacket on the foam pipes is stronger but when it gets water logged it is much worse than wrap type that is water logged.
I have no proof but I believe that when the foam pipe is rolled up and unrolled it gets millions of hairline cracks in the foam which can channel water through it.
Once it is soaked it is completely useless. The wrap type will still insulate some with water in it because the foam is 100% water proof but will but water between the layers will cut the insulation value way down.
With either type, you have to install it properly or it could fail.
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craig from ridgewood sent me a sample piece of the zsupply 5 wrap today. looks pretty good. the outside of the pipe seems
pretty tough. would it be better to go with 1 and a quarter inch for a 120 ft run. cant really decide weather to use thermopex
or wrapped. the money is on issue but I want it to last.
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i can't dispute your claims RSI as i feel you have much more experience with this stuff than me, but i will stick to my belief that i have yet to see anyone come on this forum and say their closed cell insulated lines have failed. and when and if i do, i will still say that from all the wrapped failure i have heard of, it may be 100 to 1 and my bets would still be for the closed cell foam.
and if someone does not mind cutting the extra 4 or 5 cords of wood, hell..save your money and dont by the wrapped stuff either...just put the pex in without any insulation
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[quote author=Scott7m link=topic=
One of our most respected members "Marty" will be digging up his water logged thermopex this spring, he says the foam acted exactly like a sponge
is the post below from marty below you refer to scott?
Scott, would a guy be able to pull that 5 wrap stuff through a 6" pvc?
I'm planning on replacing my thermopex this summer, as it is thawing the ground in two spots. I have access to 200' of FREE 6" pvc, so I thought I'd put the 5 wrap inside the pvc. Any thoughts?
i believe he says in two spots not the whole length... i believe i agreed thsi could happen but i would sooner melt the ground in a couple of "spots" then for the entire length of my run upon a failure i do however agree that a good idea is to run the underground line (any kind you buy) inside another pipe...hey the more protection you can muster the better
so marty's failure is only "partial" and the first one i have seen on here for the foam filled pipe.. i think i have seen two or three every year sinc this forum started on "wrapped" failures
i agree with you that they can work and work well or better than foam filled..but the failure rate i think speaks for itself
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i can't dispute your claims RSI as i feel you have much more experience with this stuff than me, but i will stick to my belief that i have yet to see anyone come on this forum and say their closed cell insulated lines have failed. and when and if i do, i will still say that from all the wrapped failure i have heard of, it may be 100 to 1 and my bets would still be for the closed cell foam.
and if someone does not mind cutting the extra 4 or 5 cords of wood, hell..save your money and dont by the wrapped stuff either...just put the pex in without any insulation
Not surprising that you hear a lot more about wrap failure because there are so many different types. Some of it used to use recycled plastic for the outer pipe that broke down after a few years.
Also the ratio of wrapped type to foam on OWBs is probably at least 10 wrapped to every 1 foam.
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I just realized this is turning into an argument here. I usually try to avoid that so will not be replying in this post again.
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wonder how much longer the outer pipe on the thermopex will last
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Just need to make myself clear before leaving, all the good wrapped pipe uses 100% plastic now and doesn't have that problem.
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i am sorry if it seemed like an argument...i was just staing my beliefs with unerground piping as i see it...this forum is for everyone to put thier experiences out for everyone else to see so they may weigh what they read and make somewhat of an informed decision.
i respect your opinions very much as you and scott are dealers and install and sell much more pipe than i have ever seen. however before i bought my second round of pipe i searched on the net everywhere i could to find out about what other people thought of home made lines...foil backed lines...sponge like insulated lines and my search results from asmany forums as i could find all pointed to closed cell insulated lines for long life. if you search the net you will find many forums and many stories of failed underground lines the resilts i found were that most folks ended up with teh foam filled ones except for a few that just could not see paying the price and all said cutting more wood was a better option in their view ( i even thought that for a few years) but then i figured if i was losing 4 cords of wood a eyar that was a free year every 3..i bought the foam filled pipe and it did in fact save me 4 cords a year (just what the central boiler dealer in my area had figured and i did not buy my pipe from him...felt a little guilty about that)
i know there are many brands of insulated pipes and some wrapped ones are far better than other ones and they are generally all much cheaper than the foam filled...buyers ahve to weigh the cost and how well they will work against the next brand..i am just stating my experience with the two different brands i have had experience with, and from all my searching on the net. the results of my search put the closed cell foam pipes Much more costly , but, work efficently for a much longer periond of time.
so with that i don't wish to be seen as arguing either..i will not post on this again either
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wonder how much longer the outer pipe on the thermopex will last
It's plastic man, it will be there when your long gone buried and forgotten, both will fail if it gets a hole, but neither is simply gonna wear out in your lifetime.