Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: caprice_96 on April 02, 2013, 08:50:01 PM
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We have a 3 year old home about 1750 sq ft main level and same in the basement, along with a 900 sq foot garage (12' ceilings). The house is currently heated with a NTI Ti 150 propane boiler, forced air for the main level of the house, radiant floor for the basement and garage. The boiler also does the domestic hot water (we have a 60 gallon holding tank). The house is fairly well insulated (R-40+ Attic, R24 exterior walls house and garage). We live in northern Ontario Canada climate and have lots of wind exposure. Propane bills are getting expensive, so I am looking at a OWB to save money in the long term. At this point I am thinking of sticking to a non-gasser stove, to have the ability to burn anything and to keep the stove simple.
I can easily get a Portage and Main, Central Boiler or Heatmor boiler (so far). I was looking at the Portage and Main BL28-40 (new model), the Central Boiler 5036, or the Heatmor 200 CSS. Any opinions or experiences with any of the above?
The new Portage and Main model looks impressive with the brick lined fire box and its claims at burning a high efficiency rates without being a gasser. But it is a new untested model, not sure hoe different it is from the old ML-30.
BL28-40 Outdoor wood furnace by Portage and Main (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejx5SWwICEs#ws)
The Central seems to be a tried and true design. A good friend has had one for 10 years and swears by it. It seems to be an old and proven design, but maybe inefficient.
The Heatmor is stainless steel which sounds good, but then the competitors say that stainless has cracking problems.
How much smoke does a non-gasser produce? Does the chimney's on these hae to be higher than the house peak if the unit is close to the house? We have strong winds, and the location I am thinking will have the house down wind (generally) from the stove. The garage is on this side and is very tall.
I am sure I will have lots more questions as time goes on, looking forward to some discussion.
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First season with my Heat Master 5000e and love it! I looked at all the same ones you posted and am happy that I went with Heat Master.
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I sell Heat Master and have sold hundreds over the years and have never had one crack even when its run with no water. Heat Master and Heatmore both use 409 stainless. I believe many people get confused between furnaces made from 409 and furnaces made from 304, Hardy and Empyre for example. 304 will crack much easier than 409.
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First season with my Heat Master 5000e and love it! I looked at all the same ones you posted and am happy that I went with Heat Master.
What made you decide on the Heatmaster? What made you choose it over the others? I haven't found anyone in my area who sells them but I will look into it.
Yoderheating,
thanks for the info regarding the differences in Stainless steel.
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Okay, I have a few more questions.
I noted that the P&M model only has about 90 gallons of water, the Heatmor is about 114, and the Central is 196. Why is there such a difference in the water capacity? Wouldn't more water be better to prevent cycling of the stove?
It seems the Heatmore and P&M have forced draft with fans. Are these fans highly prone to failure? A friend of mine said they fail very often Are they normally covered under warranty? Would a fan draft cause the fire to heat up too quickly and strees the metal, vs a natural draft?
What are your opinions on round vs a square fire box?
Any other advice is appreciated.
Thanks.
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I am in year 1 w/ my 200 heatmor and have been very pleased,I did a fair amount of research before purchasing and I decided on heatmor knowing several people who had owned them for 10 years w/o any major issues.I like the forced draft fan and have not heard of them being a problem.I also really like the way you can auger the ashes out the back with out sucking up a face full of smoke.Jus my 2 cents.
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Fans rarely ever go bad. Fans normally have a 1 year warranty but I've got a lot of furnaces out there and I've only had 1 fan failure since 09
Round vs square, round has fewer welds but not many have any issues with any of that
409 is fine
Heat up to quickly and stress metal!? No, everything has water touching it, steel is only as hot as the water. No damaging it that way
Water capacities, not a big deal to me either, I've heated my home with stoves that held 265 gallons and stoves that held as little as 55 gallons of water. No difference.. Idle time may increase with larger capacity and that also can lead to more creosote and a dirtier stove.
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The biggest thing I see with large water amounts or no draft fan is more creosote because they idle to much. The best furnaces I've watched burn had smaller water capacity, draft fan and some sort of bypass that allowed the heat to be collected in the water. I've been told 1 BTU is sufficient to heat 1 lb of water through a temperature change of 1 °F, if this is true a 100 gal furnace would hold 8,000 btu between draft cycles if it was on a 10 degree differential ( hope my quick math is correct). I like for the furnace to cycle every hour or two on a really cold day and several times a day on the warmest day. If you can determine how many btu's you currently use by looking at your current heating bills you should be able to tell what size of furnace you will need.
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Support from the dealer is big during install and you first few months, pick a brand with a good local presence
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Thanks again for the great advice.
So if water cpacity has no real effect, why is there such a variation is capacities for similar stoves?
What about the fibreglass vs spray foam insulation. P&M and Heatmore stoves say they use fibreglass. Wouldn't this be prone to rodents damaging it, or the heat shrinking it? Spray foam seems good, and I am not sure that I buy the fact that it may promote corrosion by holding moisture against the metal.
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Different ideas, selling points mainly. If everyone has a 100 gallon water jacket and you make a 200, you suddenly appear different
Fiberglass is fine, it don't break down at all and does a good job, never seen rodents in it personally
Spray foam works, is it better than the r-30 to r-40 fiberglass??? Snow lays on roofs of both types
Spray foam can hide a pin hole leak for years, then when it does show up, it's way to late, that's one disadvantage
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I have seen mice burrow into the pink fibreglass doing house renos. They love that stuff, but I would assume that the stoves would use something different from what's in the walls of a house. I wonder why nobody uses a stone wool insulation like Roxul:
http://www.roxul.com/products/residential/roxul+comfortbatt (http://www.roxul.com/products/residential/roxul+comfortbatt)
Is there some sort of antifreeze that can be put in the water for in the winter if you travel and leave the wood boiler off for several days or more?
Also, has anyone on here installed one of these systems with an existing gas boiler? Is it something a DIYer can do, or will this have to be done professionally?
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Yea you can tie it to a boiler with a plate exchanger, it could be a DIY project
Most folks leave a pump on so water is always flowing from there stove, glycol is avsilable but hardly affordable
The fiberglass they use is nothing different, at least not on any brand that I've saw. However never seen it be an issue
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At least with the smaller water capacity the new P&M, A/F wouldn't be as expensive - if needed.
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I have seen mice burrow into the pink fibreglass doing house renos. They love that stuff, but I would assume that the stoves would use something different from what's in the walls of a house. I wonder why nobody uses a stone wool insulation like Roxul:
http://www.roxul.com/products/residential/roxul+comfortbatt (http://www.roxul.com/products/residential/roxul+comfortbatt)
Is there some sort of antifreeze that can be put in the water for in the winter if you travel and leave the wood boiler off for several days or more?
Also, has anyone on here installed one of these systems with an existing gas boiler? Is it something a DIYer can do, or will this have to be done professionally?
you can mix glycol and mix it with water 50/50 it is a type of antifreeze and wont freeze if mixed properly.....
kelly
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I wouldn't worry about mice ect in the insulation if you will be burning it in the colder parts of the year. No mouse is going to last snuggled up to a 180 degree water jacket.
I only recommend glycol if there is a high chance of freezing. In other words only if you will be allowing the furnace to be out a lot when it is below freezing. Glycol doesn't transfer heat as well as water and will degrade over time. If you let the furnace go out when its just below freezing the running pump will keep it from freezing up.
The plumbing on a boiler hookup is very simple and most homeowners could do it themselves. The wiring is a little more tricky, there are several ways to do it depending on how your gas boiler is set up. You want to be sure both systems can work and switch back and forth automatically. Do you have multiple zones and does your gas boiler maintain heat 24/7 or is it on demand?
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My propane boiler is on demand, and we have multiple zones and it covers the domestic hot water. We have radiant floor for the basement and garage (each independant), a forced ares system for the main level, and the domestic hot water. I wasn't overly worried about the plumbing, more how to wire this all up so the two boilers work together. I am not sure how that works, maybe I will have to pay a professional for that part. It is an NTI Ti 150 boiler. Here is a link to a page with a PDF that has more information:
http://www.hvacforlife.com/gas_boiler_NTI.html (http://www.hvacforlife.com/gas_boiler_NTI.html)
I will probably have to invest in that glycol, because our winters are cold, and we've been away for more than a week sometimes during winter. How much does this stuff cost?
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I would have to see a detailed wiring diagram to determine how to do the wiring. You preferably use a aquastat on the furnace to automatically switch between propane and outdoor furnace. It may take a relay or two as well but a good boiler guy should be able to do it easily. The key is for it to happen automatically, don't let someone tell you it can't be done and you will have to manually switch it between the two. I'm surprised if it is doing the domestic hot water it doesn't maintain heat.
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Maybe I will have to get a professional for that part of the install. The wiring by our existing boiler looks pretty complicated. Our hot water is held in a 60 gallon holding tank. So it kicks on when we use some hot water. The tank is pretty well insulated and holds the heat pretty well.
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Maybe I will have to get a professional for that part of the install. The wiring by our existing boiler looks pretty complicated. Our hot water is held in a 60 gallon holding tank. So it kicks on when we use some hot water. The tank is pretty well insulated and holds the heat pretty well.
they do sell glycol in 55 gal drums.....ask around in your area.....
kelly
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Maybe I will have to get a professional for that part of the install. The wiring by our existing boiler looks pretty complicated. Our hot water is held in a 60 gallon holding tank. So it kicks on when we use some hot water. The tank is pretty well insulated and holds the heat pretty well.
they do sell glycol in 55 gal drums.....ask around in your area.....
kelly
http://www.dynalene.com/HeatTransferFluids/glycolregionalsales.html (http://www.dynalene.com/HeatTransferFluids/glycolregionalsales.html) here is a web site that sells all over the usa....maybe this can help
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We have a 3 year old home about 1750 sq ft main level and same in the basement, along with a 900 sq foot garage (12' ceilings). The house is currently heated with a NTI Ti 150 propane boiler, forced air for the main level of the house, radiant floor for the basement and garage. The boiler also does the domestic hot water (we have a 60 gallon holding tank). The house is fairly well insulated (R-40+ Attic, R24 exterior walls house and garage). We live in northern Ontario Canada climate and have lots of wind exposure. Propane bills are getting expensive, so I am looking at a OWB to save money in the long term. At this point I am thinking of sticking to a non-gasser stove, to have the ability to burn anything and to keep the stove simple.
I can easily get a Portage and Main, Central Boiler or Heatmor boiler (so far). I was looking at the Portage and Main BL28-40 (new model), the Central Boiler 5036, or the Heatmor 200 CSS. Any opinions or experiences with any of the above? I can comment on the new Portage and Main brick lined models but I will tell you that I sell them so there is no confusion. what I like about the new models is the impressive amount of firebrick and refractory cement to help insulate the fire from cold water temps, this helps the fire get hotter and burn the smoke then the hotter exhaust gasses go through 2 more passes in the water jacket to extract more heat resulting in less wood consumption. Another thing I like about the BL is that it is a modular boiler meaning that it can be easily broken in half and welded if it ever developes a leak in the firebox, More expensive to build but if you have ever had to weld a boiler from inside the door you would understand, it is not fun, we realize that someday all boilers will fail from corrosion or cracking and we simply wish to make repairs as easy as possible.
The new Portage and Main model looks impressive with the brick lined fire box and its claims at burning a high efficiency rates without being a gasser. But it is a new untested model, not sure hoe different it is from the old ML-30.
BL28-40 Outdoor wood furnace by Portage and Main (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejx5SWwICEs#ws)
The Central seems to be a tried and true design. A good friend has had one for 10 years and swears by it. It seems to be an old and proven design, but maybe inefficient.
The Heatmor is stainless steel which sounds good, but then the competitors say that stainless has cracking problems.
How much smoke does a non-gasser produce? Does the chimney's on these hae to be higher than the house peak if the unit is close to the house? We have strong winds, and the location I am thinking will have the house down wind (generally) from the stove. The garage is on this side and is very tall.
I am sure I will have lots more questions as time goes on, looking forward to some discussion.
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I have a Baxi luna 330 and I use that for heat during the shoulder months.real effecent. and I use it for my demestic hw year round.I like to use it just to make sure it is operating properly. as for heating hot water i think the baxi or any gas boiler is cheep to run and not worth the expence to hook up the wood boiler. My system is not an automtic set up like mentioned earlier.I do have to change the valves around.