Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Portage & Main => Topic started by: boss302 on April 06, 2013, 08:08:23 PM
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What is the scoop on the newly released Ultimizer series from P&M?
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I am interested on expert opinions on this stove too. It is one I am seriously considering.
Are P&M's claims true about how much less wood they use comparted to other conventional stoves?
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Does the p and m use less wood than other models? Sometimes yea, just depends on what your comparing it to, the regular p and m line is the same as heatmasters e series, they are a bit more efficient than the basic designed stoves yea
For the most part, all efficiency numbers are bogus and only attainable in lab situations where there burning crib wood and not even burning real firewood, it's all marketing! Just like empyre or central for example with stoves reaching 90% efficiency, stack temps are still over 300, regardless of what u read, they are over 300 and often over 400, me and others have checked this numerous times. So if ur stack temp is 400, and your operating at 90% efficient that would mean your internal temps would need to be 3000 degrees or better, not happening, I know what the advertisements say, my office is filled with them, but I can't say the companies are lying, because in that lab, they can probably tweak things to get such crazy numbers, but to ever expect anything remotely close to that in the real world is crazy
As far as the new p and m design, I like the idea, but as with every other new design, it's going to have unforeseen issues and stuff that will be phased out over time, but I do like the principle of it
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I am trying to find out more about the BL28-40 from an owner. However, I am not sure when they first went into production and whether they have been tested by an owner for a winter.
I currently own a Central Boiler CL-17 that sprung a leak this past winter for the first time in 20 years. Although I have considered buying another CB, I have a couple of friends who have had serious problems with water leaking from the welds --- their stoves are less than 5 years old. I don't believe that many of the new non-gasification brands have improved in terms of design or burn efficiency.
For a conventional boiler, the BL28-40 seems like the more efficient design among the stoves I have researched. I live in Canada, and toured the P&M factory in Piney, Manitoba last spring. I was impressed with the overall quality of their stoves, particularly this model.
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I know a bit about the B-L line and the PM line as I not only sell and install them but also do some R and D on the road for them, what I can tell you is that is a brand new product that I really like, here are some of the things that appeal to me as a tech. First it is the same basic stove as the M-L line with major upgrades. The massive amount of refractory and brick in the unit helps a great deal in burning more of the smoke than the M-L, keeping more energy in the fire pot is key to efficiancy and that is the idea of the bricks, next thing I like is that it is a sectional boiler, meaning that it can be seperated into two pieces giving much better access to the inside of the unit in case it ever needs to be patched. I KNOW why would any boiler manufacturer admit that their boiler is going to rot out, I'm telling you they all eventually will rot out, there are things that the cunsumer can do to prolong the life of the boilers like doing their water samples, cleaning ash out, covering the stack, all common sense stuff but most people shut their unit down and forget it till fall, They will clean it next weekend and next weekend never comes, what the B-L line has done is to enable the unit to be welded very easily on site, there is no place on it that you can't reach by taking it apart, every boiler will eventually fail this just allows more in service years, by then if we have done our job correctly, that customer will come back to us. Don't be afraid to try it, if anyone knows how P-M works with new products and warranty claims I guess I do.
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Thanks for the reply. Can you tell me if P&M requires that the use of glycol in their boilers. I have done some research and it is quite expensive.
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Sorry for the delayed response. no we do not require anything other than the use of boiler treatment, it is a good idea to set the unit up so as to be easily drained and the lines blown out though as your plans may change in the middle of the winter and need to leave the boiler unattended.
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Have on one order should be here by end of month. Friend also bought one to replace 14 year old Wood Doctor which has been repaired a few times. Will let you know how it works out.
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Thank you both and if you need anything including advice please let me know.
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I have decided to purchase one also and hope to have it shipped in the next few weeks. I will keep people posted as to how it performs. I'm sure I will have more questions. Thanks.
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Please do, when it comes to the install, if you have any questions please post them as it may help others as well, the more questions we answer now the better as I see a very busy season coming up. Crude oil opened at 107 per barrel this morning up from I think 86 dollars only 6 weeks ago, something is up !
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Slim, always shocks me seeing oil prices being talked about in relation to heating cost. Probably less that 1% of all homes in my region heat with heating oil. Nearly everyone here is on heat pumps, propane, or geothermal
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I see that gas is going up at a steady pace also.
scott: I think the average for Maine is like 87% use oil, although i have seen alot of people switching to propane.
Actually my wife wants me to go back to oil so i dont have to process the wood thats FREE
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Buddy what's she want you to do? Just sit there and wait for your final days?
Heck with that, being more independent and less dependent on other folks is what it's all about
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Hey coolidge, I've been meaning to call you, I have some new door gasket material that is silicone coated that seems to be much better for air leaks. Why don't you come on up to the Waterford worlds fair this weekend, I'll be there and will bring some with me.
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I am looking for a device to monitor the temperature of the water in the copper piping as it enters the house. The device should have a low and high temperature sensor and an alarm system should the water temperature drop below 160 or above 180 degree (roughly). It would need to have a probe that could somehow attach to the piping. It would be helpful if the system was wireless so that the alarm itself was upstairs. Even better, there might be an IPhone option. Do any of you know of such a device? Thanks.
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That would be awesome and I would buy one if someone invented it if it is not available.
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I know that they are available but don't know the brand or model and won't be at my supply house for about 2 weeks but I would contact Grainger and talk with them, Pricey but I bet they have it.
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This is a awesome product that has tons of options and features and the ones your looking for! 8) http://www.controlbyweb.com/x300/ (http://www.controlbyweb.com/x300/)
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Unit arrived yesterday, very impressed with quality of finish and attention to detail. Started on trench from house to unit.
:)
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keep us in the loop
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Finally got off the fence and ordered a BL28-40 also. Should be here in a couple weeks, so time to get ready for delivery.
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Thanks guys please let me know how you make out.
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I am installing my new stove and am having some challenges finding the fitting to connect my old poly b pipe to the new pipe (from ground to the stove fitting). I am looking for a copper or brass barbed fitting for a the poly b with an inside diameter of 7/8 inch. The male threaded end can be 3/4 or 1 inch in diameter. I have looked for this part online and have visited a number of stores. If anyone knows where I can find this part, please let me know. Thanks.
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you should be able to find it at any good plumbing and heating store, if you can't then contact Brian at PM, i'm sure he has them.
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Update on BL28-40. Unit arrived when the shipper stated (very heavy). Install went smooth with a few leaks as I had numerous connections (installed thermometers, pressure gauges & filter). Filled as per manual and circulated water to get through mixing of stabilizer. Fired her up this morning and within 15 min water was @ 80 degrees. Now 9 hours later and everything is working like clockwork. Sidearm is making lots of hot water and furnace coil heats the house much faster than the old Newmac wood furnace (a lot cleaner as wood is now outside). Plumbed the filter inline and have 1psi pressure drop, system pressure is 7psi with pump on low 10psi on high. Furnace coil incoming temp is 180 degrees and outgoing 160 degrees. Will post some pics later.
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Sounds very good, I would like to see you turn up the temps a bit and also close the differential a bit, 190 for high, 5-10 degree differential, you are a bit high on the differential across the heat exchanger, can you speed up the circ a bit.
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I also have my bl28-40 installed and running. The weather here in Northern Ontario is already cold with our first snowfall last night. I am also wondering about the most efficient heat settings. I have the temperature set for 180 F and the differential at 10. I generally find that although the fan shuts off at 180, the stove will often reach a temp. of 183 to 185 before it begins to cool. I am wondering if I should reduce the max temperature setting to 170 or 175 degrees. On another note, I had to add 9 ft of piping to the stack and instead of using guy wires, I have supported the chimney to the lifting hook on the top of the stove with a telescopic rod that is normally used to support a chimney to the roof of a home. It works well and provides enough support for high winds.
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Hi Slimjim,
Just reading your comment again and recommendation about turning the max. temperature on the boiler to 190. Just wondering what your rationale is and why this might be more efficient. I was considering lowering the temp. from 180. I am certainly looking for the most efficient burn. I appreciate the feedback.
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Good morning Dakotaman, I like to run all my boilers as hot as possible, to keep them burning as clean as possible, this is the reason for the brick lining in your B-L model, another benefit to running hot is to eliminate more oxygen in the water, running it hot will not hurt the unit as long as it does not consistantly boil at the top of it's cycle, watch for steam exiting the vent tube, if you see visible steam then back off the temp by 5 degrees, different elevations boil water at different temps so this is the best way that I have found to set the high limit temps. As far as the over run on the temp, please check to be sure you have no air leaks in your door gaskets if you do then please adjust the doors, they are easily adjusted on all sides, the extra stack is creating extra draft and may be pulling fresh air in through the doors, the over run may also simply be low heat load, remember you have a lot of poured refractory cement in that unit, once it gets hot it stays hot, with little heat load it may spike a bit but will not cause a problem as long as it does not go to steam consistantly. Now for the big question how do you like your new B-L series from Portage and Main, I can't sell them here but am dying for more feedback on it, I really like what I see and hear from my friend Dave who does sell them in Wi.
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So far, I am very happy with the stove. It seems to be a good quality stove and I am quite certain it is burning less wood than my previous stove. The fire brick gets very hot and seems to maintain the heat for considerable time when there are small amounts of wood left in the stove. The real test will come when the temperatures here fall to -30 Celsius next month. The stove also seems to be very well insulated. You do have to be careful when opening the door. On one occasion, I opened the door too quickly and had to hit the dirt as a massive ball of fire headed my way :) I am going to continue to adjust the max temperature and differential to find the more efficient burn. Trying the temp. at 185 and diff. at 10 degrees at the moment. I'll probably try 190 on the weekend when I have time to monitor the stove more closely. Thanks for your suggestions.
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If you ever met me you would understand why I have this really nicely trimmed beard (not) flashbacks can be brutal, be careful and enjoy.
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Can we a pic of that nice neatly trimmed beard!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) :pic: :pic: :) :)
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If you really want a picture of my mug I'm going to have to wonder about you.
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Can we a pic of that nice neatly trimmed beard!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) :pic: :pic: :) :)
Just imagine a pony tailed version of Tommy Chong!
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:thumbup:
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Some pics of my BL28-40.
Some tweaks added to the the unit: added electrical outlet, LED lighting for night time loading, extended chimney, rain cap.
Will be modifying the over-center door latch to ease opening & closing as it gets very hot.
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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Hey Muskoka, that's a nice touch. I also purchased a BL but have not yet had time to get it set up.
Question 1 - did yours come with the pump on it or did you get it after to suit your requirements?
Question 2 - does it smoke much?
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The pump was extra, running Grundfos 26-99 3 speed. Lots of flow even on low. 5psi on low, 10psi on high.
As for smoke, off cycle as in the pic. During cycle, 1st smokes and than clears as fire gets up to regular burning. Temp is around 0C and unit is most of the time off cycle. Furnace fan only comes on 2-3 times per day. House is comfortable 22C just with convection flow from the furnace coil.
:thumbup:
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Glad you like it, I would be very interested in what your stack temp is at the breach.
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Stack temp at breach? Do you mean where it exits the unit at the 90?
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Yes
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Although my stove is running well I had a bit of a surprise the other morning. When I opened the ash pan door, the stove started to vibrate and I could hear the fan rattle. The fan was off at the time so I can only assume that The vibration was caused by a sudden change in air pressure. I opened the firebox door and the vibration stopped. I had opened the ash pan door a number of times in the past few weeks and this did not happen. The heat exchanger and stove piping were clean at the time. No damage to the unit or fan. Any thoughts?
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I would think it was the introduction of fresh air under the shaker grates and bed of coals, what are you getting for stack temp and what are you running for water temp? How much creosote are you getting in the burn chamber? Do you think the ceramics are an improvement?
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Thanks for the feedback Slim. I'm not sure what the stack temperature is but will measure at some point. I have some creosote buildup but not as much with the colder temperatures outside. I have the stove running at 180. I have to say that I am very impressed with the wood consumption. We had our first very cold night with a low of -15 celcius and windchill of -25. I filled the stove in the early evening and checked it 12 hours later. The stove was still full with charcoal looking logs. I noticed this evening that the fan rarely turns on and when it does, the temperature rises 10 degrees in a very short period of time. The brick and grate system in the bottom allows any moisture to drain from the firebox area and I'm sure the firebricks contains the heat very well.
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I had one other question. I am wondering if I should have the draft opening on the fan motor fully open or partially closed. It is called an air flow adjust in the manual.
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Thats one of the reasons that i'm looking at the stack temp, if you are happy with it as is, great but with stack temps they will move up or down on a stove depending on the amount of air flow, I have watched the 250 move from 220 to 260 when it is clean just by adding more air, Coolidge be cautios with your modification with the air being cut back so far, have you been keeping an eye on the stack temp, you should be around 260 when clean.
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An other update on my BL28-40.
Plenum air temp when furnace fan is on 140F heating the house very easily.
Stack temp off cycle is around 200F, with the blower on cycle 615F.
We now have some -12 temps and the unit is working like a charm. Feed her around 4-5pm and just add a couple of good sized pieces in the am.
Have turned off the breaker for my hot water heater 4 weeks ago and can not us all of the hot water that the sidearm produces.
As for mods: added small arm to the over center latch to ease opening an closing (can be done with one hand), micro switch on the door to turn on the LED lights.
:D
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NICE, Thanks for the update, I just put the 34-44 into a test site last night myself, unreal recoup time, heating a 6000+ foot home that is 200+ years old, my opinion, nice conventional stove.
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How are you bl 28 40 people liking your boilers so far?
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So far all I'm hearing is good news, no word from EPA yet.
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Oakhill, I am really happy with the BL.
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I am really happy with my BL34-44 too.
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Does anyone know how many gallons of water the BL2840 holds? I cannot find that information on their webpage.
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The 2840 holds 90 gallons (us), 3444 120 gallons and the new 3848 160 gallons. That's according to the brochure.
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So far all I'm hearing is good news, no word from EPA yet.
What word are you waiting on from EPA? Has Portage & Main submitted the Ultimizer for EPA Phase II qualification? Just trying to understand.
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No it's not but here in Maine , I'm trying to convince them to allow manufacturers to use the state as a test site for uncertified boilers, very limited
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Looking at the 2840 also, I live in Ontario the propane prices are pushing me to rethink burning wood ,I have lots of jackpine and some mixed hardwood ,my question is the bl2840 a good unit for burning jackpine also do I need to worry about sparks coming from smokestack
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Brokenaxe, also live in the mountains, now In a extreme drought. 4' stack not 1 spark. Even with Rocky Mountain cedar which is notorious for shooting off sparks and red hot embers. I understand your concern.
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NICE, Thanks for the update, I just put the 34-44 into a test site last night myself, unreal recoup time, heating a 6000+ foot home that is 200+ years old, my opinion, nice conventional stove.
Hi slimjim. :) What kind of burn time was that 6000+ sq. ft. home achieving with the BL 34-44?
What wood species is being used for achieving the burn times? Curious. :thumbup:
Thank you! -Slopster
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10+ hours with mixed hardwoods,not real dry but ok in central Maine
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After learning more about the Ultimizer 2840 I think I am sold on it. I'm just wondering if it will be able the keep a green house warm with the house and hot water.