Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: caprice_96 on April 18, 2013, 02:01:48 PM
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I am looking for advice and opinions on what to do for an underground pipe. I am new to this OWF world, and I have read old threads, but I am still not sure what to choos. I will probably need about 100' of pipe, so it won't be cheap. My land is also generally pretty rocky and has several sections with bedrock (my house has all it's footings on bedrock).
I have seen that there are numerous options, including Logstor, Thermoplex, 3-wrap, 5-wrap, and I even found this stuff:
http://www.heatlink.com/en/product/138]- [url]http://www.heatlink.com/en/product/138 (http://- [url)[/url]
What are the pros and cons? Obviously, cost is an issue, but I'd rather spend more now to save more in the long run. In other words I am looking for the best bang for the buck, but I want mimimal heat loss and maximum durability.
I have also talked to someone in my area that made there own line. He just used pex and solid foam insulation. He has had is furnace for 15+ years with no issues, but I am not sure what his heat loss is. He hasn't measured it but claims it doesn't melt the snow.
I am in Ontario, Canada so any one who can point me to dealers of the products is appreciated. Also, how deep is the pipe typically buried?
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Don't do your own.. That would be rule number 1, I've yet to see a home made line worth burying.
If you truly want the most bang for the buck, double tile it. You have rocky soil, so double tiling it will give you twice the protection. Just as important, it creates an air space round your initial tile that holds the insulation, that in turn makes it more efficient vs having wet soil laying directly on it.
If I were in rocky soil, that would be what I would recommend. Even if you went with logstor, I'd still double tile it, foam filled lines can fail too as seen on the forum.
I think doing a 3 or preferably 5 wrap in this matter would be the most bang for the buck, heat loss on 5 wrap is less than foam filled
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Thanks for the information. Any other input is appreciated. Double tile seems to be a cheap insurance.
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Double tile is a waste of time and money in my opinion and the only pipe that I use is Logstor, it has a really thick outer layer of black plastic as well as a membrane to keep the foam from gassing off, it is a full 1 inch inside diameter for added flow rate and has 1/2 degree heat loss for every 100 feet of run at only 10 gallons of flow per minute rather you have dry soil or you run it through a pond.
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best thing to do Is keep your distance from the house as short as you can (safely) 100 feet of logstor (good pipe) losing 1/2 degree in 100 feet at the temps and gpm suggested on the web site will still count for about 5 million btu per 100 days of heating
although this in my opinion is a very acceptable amount, what ever can be done to lower this is good..such as burying your pipe below the frost to keep the ground temps well above the 32 degrees used in the tests (the lower the difference in the delta t between the water temps and the ground temps the less heat loss you will have. if using a second tile (and you can assure no water will get in it) MAY be an advantage as the ambient air temp in the tile would likely wick away heat slower than moist soil or water
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So the delta t, temp inside your pex package, to the outside makes no difference???
So ur saying if it's 40 below or 100, the pipes gonna lose the same amount of heat? And that dry soil vs wet soil makes no difference??
I agree that logstor is a good product, one of my favorites, but to think giving it another layer of protection as well as keeping it dry is useless dont make much sense. In areas where it's extremely rocky the tile can still fail, if it took a sharp rock 8 years to wear a hole in logstor, I would have rather spent an extra 80 bucks or whatever on a tile to slide it through and have it last 15 years.
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I agree with Scott about double tiling, it doesn't cost that much more and I like the idea I can yank all my pipe out of the ground and replace it without digging at all.
Hope I never have to.....
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best thing to do Is keep your distance from the house as short as you can (safely) 100 feet of logstor (good pipe) losing 1/2 degree in 100 feet at the temps and gpm suggested on the web site will still count for about 5 million btu per 100 days of heating
although this in my opinion is a very acceptable amount, what ever can be done to lower this is good..such as burying your pipe below the frost to keep the ground temps well above the 32 degrees used in the tests (the lower the difference in the delta t between the water temps and the ground temps the less heat loss you will have. if using a second tile (and you can assure no water will get in it) MAY be an advantage as the ambient air temp in the tile would likely wick away heat slower than moist soil or water
Your right Willie, a 6-7 month heating cycle even with logstor and the numbers he provided would still loose over 10 millions btu at a minimum
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OK guys run what you like, I know what I went through when I put the cheap stuff in the ground that the dealer talked me into. I will not sell it to my customers.
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Slim, I don't think anyone says logstor isn't good, but what could giving it more protection hurt, as cheap as it is to do, and also how do you think that it doesn't matter what the surrounding temps and ground conditions are?!??
Logstor compared to cb's stuff is far better, much heavier casing, I was recently at a meeting where guys do big commercial type jobs and they were not fans of logstor at all, however there jobs are really large and may do 100k worth of line or more per job, those guys were all big on rehau pipe.
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I am a noob this was my second season but I can say for sure Use good insulated pipe and bury it deep, I have a long run too and dug it by hand and at a certain point ya hit another rock and it is like aa ahh maybe this section won't be as deep, get a backhoe dig a nice trunch it also makes getting it in the house easier, you want the pipe to come in the house straight, the pipe is stiff so you need the truch nice and straight (level) before the house.
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Yeah Rehau is a good pipe as well ,and most of those jobs that are being done with their pipe is payed for by the American taxpayer, think about it, five years ago my supply house quoted me the price (wholesale) of Rehau at $26 per foot for comparible pipe to Urecons dual pex flex, I sell Urecon locally for $14 per foot delivered (and that is something else to consider as it takes up a lot of space on the truck), Shipping typically costs around 500-1000 dollars per roll regardless of how long a run you require as it still takes up 2 pallet spaces on the truck.Not saying that maybe somebody is padding their pockets on those big jobs but it's only money! Gotta get ready for the logging expo in Bangor, Me. I'll bring my laptop and camera for those who can't be there and I won't forget my sample bag of the best pipe on the market. Richard @ PM
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Yeah Rehau is a good pipe as well ,and most of those jobs that are being done with their pipe is payed for by the American taxpayer, think about it, five years ago my supply house quoted me the price (wholesale) of Rehau at $26 per foot for comparible pipe to Urecons dual pex flex, I sell Urecon locally for $14 per foot delivered (and that is something else to consider as it takes up a lot of space on the truck), Shipping typically costs around 500-1000 dollars per roll regardless of how long a run you require as it still takes up 2 pallet spaces on the truck.Not saying that maybe somebody is padding their pockets on those big jobs but it's only money! Gotta get ready for the logging expo in Bangor, Me. I'll bring my laptop and camera for those who can't be there and I won't forget my sample bag of the best pipe on the market. Richard @ PM
Yea, I donno what's happened to the price, but I think I can buy Rehau cheaper than Logstor at this time.
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Has anybody ever successfully changed their pipe by having whatever you used inside another pipe?
Just wondering as we install our own drain tile here at the farm and with the corrugations used on the pipe trying to slide it thru another piece of corrugated tile might be a joke at best. Maybe if the inner one was slid thru a 6" smooth bore plastic sewer pipe?
I also know the stuff my cousin installed (from Central Boiler perhaps) is stiff enough that again you'd play holy hell trying to get it to slide around any corners.
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Has anybody ever successfully changed their pipe by having whatever you used inside another pipe?
Just wondering as we install our own drain tile here at the farm and with the corrugations used on the pipe trying to slide it thru another piece of corrugated tile might be a joke at best. Maybe if the inner one was slid thru a 6" smooth bore plastic sewer pipe?
I also know the stuff my cousin installed (from Central Boiler perhaps) is stiff enough that again you'd play holy hell trying to get it to slide around any corners.
Yeah I don't think so , or worse yet when the outer shell gets full of water and holds it on the pipe your trying to protect. Those dead air spaces always fill with water if there not filled with something to keep it out. It's only a matter of time.
Rehau, logstor , Uponor Wirsbo insulated lines don't fail ever, the installers lack of a proper bed/backfill or lack of extra protection did. Anything can be made to fail in the wrong hands. Regardless of the recklace btu numbers thrown around , there is nothing better than these brands readily available on the market.
So a 1/2 degree loss in 100' at 5gpm & 180' = 1250 btu/hr x 24hr = 30kbtu/day x 182 days = 5.46mbtu/6 months
Compared to magic bubble or loose closed cell foam wrap with same flow specs but a 10 degree loss/100'
= 25kbtu/hr x 24hr = 600kbtu x 182 days = 109.2mbtu/6 months
I've seen anywhere from 6 degree loss to 18 degree loss per 100' at more than 5 GPM flow. If your snow is melting even a little bit you have more than a 6 degree loss.
If in anyway shape or form one of those fancy wrapped lines truly did perform as good or even a tiny bit better than the high dollar brands. Those multimillion dollar companies would be buying the rights to manufacturer or at least copying. AND if any of those fancy wrapped homemade pipes did perform even as good or close, they would show full detailed side by side tests, and or at least a claim on their website, ......" Ours tests as good or within 1 degree of logstor, central pex, rehau, Uponor". But they don't cuz they can't. Best you get is some claim where a few numbers are posted that look good, without the rest of the test data.
If fact one of those pipes does show >1 degree loss at 16 GPM. More than triple the speed.
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Is there anything pre-made of high quality like that that uses 1-1/4" or larger pipe? Sometimes you need more volume or would rather use a smaller pump, or in my case I did large lines to a multi-port manifold in the basement and ran everything to everywhere from there using the proper sized lines I needed for each part. The garage is detached but close to the house and running a set of lines from the boiler to the house and from the boiler to the garage would more than double the amount of line that I needed to just go from the boiler to the house with large lines and from the house to the garage with smaller lines.
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LOGSTOR
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Buy the best you can afford, if you go with wrapped lines do a double tile for added protection. If you want foam filled lines take slims advice, logstor is twice the product as thermopex and only a dollar more per foot
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Logstor has larger pipe also available, I and I don't think Scott stocks it but it is there, not sure if you were aware of it. Scott Crab is the contact north of the border for special orders, you still must buy from dealer but he can get what you need.
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Logstor has larger pipe also available, I and I don't think Scott stocks it but it is there, not sure if you were aware of it. Scott Crab is the contact north of the border for special orders, you still must buy from dealer but he can get what you need.
We have the larger size logstor as well.
The regular dual flex pex is equivalent to 1 1/4 ich regular pex
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Looking thru the Uponor catalog - they have 1.5", 2" and 2.5" Thermal twin. Can you afford it is the next question, cause they aren't giving it away if you know what I mean
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Looking thru the Uponor catalog - they have 1.5", 2" and 2.5" Thermal twin. Can you afford it is the next question, cause they aren't giving it away if you know what I mean
Be prepared for over 25/ft
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Looking thru the Uponor catalog - they have 1.5", 2" and 2.5" Thermal twin. Can you afford it is the next question, cause they aren't giving it away if you know what I mean
Be prepared for over 25/ft
Like I said, they aren't just giving it away!!! I could read off some the list prices out of the catalog, but I think a few people on this forum might tip over from hearing those numbers.
TOTALLY UNRELATED: Bigger the pipe, bigger the $$$ - was looking at McMaster the other day for a brass elbow, $$ difference between sizes is crazy; 1" was like $15, 1.5" was like $30 and a 4" was over $300. :o Thank GOD I don't have to plumb in 4"
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Anybody use the stuff from Badger Insulated Pipe? http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com (http://www.badgerinsulatedpipe.com)
I need to replace my underground lines and will either goto 1 pexalpex or a 1 1/4 non barrier. Plan on increasing heating needs next winter and the 1 inch won't cut it.
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Has anybody ever successfully changed their pipe by having whatever you used inside another pipe?
Just wondering as we install our own drain tile here at the farm and with the corrugations used on the pipe trying to slide it thru another piece of corrugated tile might be a joke at best. Maybe if the inner one was slid thru a 6" smooth bore plastic sewer pipe?
I also know the stuff my cousin installed (from Central Boiler perhaps) is stiff enough that again you'd play holy hell trying to get it to slide around any corners.
I put mine through smooth bore 8" culvert pipe and 8" schedule 40 where I'd drive over it. I couldn't see how I'd get it through 6" schedule 40. The rest is in sand. Thermopex 1" from my dealer was $9.50 a foot.
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It is also possible to use 2 sets of the smaller pex. And still be cheaper. A lot of our wholesale houses no longer will even order it. The geothermal places are a good source here, without getting bent over
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When I installed mine over a decade ago I made my own pipe, took a piece of 4" sewer pipe, wrapped that in as many layers of foil bubble insulation that would go ever it and still fit in a 6" piece of sewer pipe. Instead of a 90 i used two 45's about a foot apart, filled those with closed cell expanding foam. Original plan was to be able to replace the lines at a later date, for the first decade I had no snow melt whatsoever, the last couple of years I noticed the corner is melting snow. I think what happened is the inner pipe couldn't handle the heat from the pex and over time it has actually shrunk and I think the corner pulled apart somewhere. My thinking is that because when I installed it I cut it flush a few inches from the basement wall, now the inner pipe is pulled in a few inches.
I know what it cost me then to make then and with what some of the quality 3 or 5 wrap can be bought for now I won't take the time to make it again. No matter what I buy I definitely plan on placing it in a sleeve of some kind, most likely a piece of 6 or 8" sewer pipe. Will need sch 40 on the part that goes under the drive, have tandem and tri axle grain trucks and a semi that will be routinely driving over it.
If I remember correctly I had about 7 degrees of heat loss measured at the boiler supply and return but that was also going thru a sidearm on the domestic water heater then thru the water to air HE.
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I put my logstor in a 6in solid corrugated drain pipe and then I put a 20 foot chunk of 8 inch culvert over that where I drive. I had to pull the 6 in over the logstor with my 4 wheeler winch took 3 people but it worked well. I layed the logstor out straight for 3 days tied it off on both ends and pulled it tight that helped a lot kept it somewhat straight. I dug the lines up once there was no way I was going to again for 250 bucks I have a double tile pipe with a triple tile in the middle. If that busts I am going to go get a pellet boiler.
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So I guess no mater what pipe you use you need to bury it well below the freeze line.
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So I guess no mater what pipe you use you need to bury it well below the freeze line.
No.... It reallly dont amount to much. Just dont go down into super wet soil where water is running into the ditch
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I haven't read much on height changes if you install a owb on the bottom of a hill and you use an 1 1/4 pex or something like that would it be a big deal as far as pumping water uphill your return would almost act as a suction maybe? I'm thinking , maybe 10 feet lower ground maybe 50 foot run. Also (I'm new at this) would the water leak out of the boiler if the pump stopped running because the boiler is lower than the line to the house. Thanks guys
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Install a plate exchanger at the wood boiler and you will have no issues with pumping or air period.
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I haven't read much on height changes if you install a owb on the bottom of a hill and you use an 1 1/4 pex or something like that would it be a big deal as far as pumping water uphill your return would almost act as a suction maybe? I'm thinking , maybe 10 feet lower ground maybe 50 foot run. Also (I'm new at this) would the water leak out of the boiler if the pump stopped running because the boiler is lower than the line to the house. Thanks guys
This is where pressurized systems have the advantage, zero worries about water level , flat plates and associated problems of elevation differences
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To each his own sprinter, what happens when your pressurized boiler sitting outside loses all power, have you ever seen a farmer that instead of replacing that 15 dollar relief valve instead puts a 3/4 inch plug in it. pressurized boilers have their place and outside is not the place and if they are installed inside a home they must have the proper dump zones capable of dissipating the heat without the use of power, I put a non pressurized boiler on my home and shop for a reason and that is SAFETY.
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If memory serves, my reading of Central Boiler manual :bag:; again I admit to reading manual - I'm sorry. It is best if you can keep all of your open loop piping below the minimum water level of the OWB; you will lessen the change of getting air bubbles stuck in the lines and vapor locks occuring.
*** If a portion of open loop is above overflow of the OWB and leaks, water level will more than likely drop to lowest open portion of the loop (probably the overflow on the OWB)*** :(
I personally have open loop from OWB (CB eClassis 2400) to mechanical room then Flat plate to closed loop for in slab and under subfloor. Closed loop systems are nice if you want to run a glycol mix (and not have to mix entire water jacket 200+ gallons with $$$/gallon antifreeze) or radiant application where a portion o application is above overflow/high point of open loop OWB. Remember with any HX you incur a penalty in temperature (as in any energy tranfer loss are inevitable) and typically loss of GPM (generally HX have high pressure drops)
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If memory serves, my reading of Central Boiler manual :bag:; again I admit to reading manual - I'm sorry. It is best if you can keep all of your open loop piping below the minimum water level of the OWB; you will lessen the change of getting air bubbles stuck in the lines and vapor locks occuring.
*** If a portion of open loop is above overflow of the OWB and leaks, water level will more than likely drop to lowest open portion of the loop (probably the overflow on the OWB)*** :(
I personally have open loop from OWB (CB eClassis 2400) to mechanical room then Flat plate to closed loop for in slab and under subfloor. Closed loop systems are nice if you want to run a glycol mix (and not have to mix entire water jacket 200+ gallons with $$$/gallon antifreeze) or radiant application where a portion o application is above overflow/high point of open loop OWB. Remember with any HX you incur a penalty in temperature (as in any energy tranfer loss are inevitable) and typically loss of GPM (generally HX have high pressure drops)
So any recommendations on how to run pex lines up in the rafters of our shop for modine style heaters?
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Im in the process of installing my OWB and have decided I need to place it in a area where Im about 6 feet short of Logstor pipe which means I would have to splice the pipe underground 3 or 4 feet before it enters my house. Any suggestions or opinions
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Im in the process of installing my OWB and have decided I need to place it in a area where Im about 6 feet short of Logstor pipe which means I would have to splice the pipe underground 3 or 4 feet before it enters my house. Any suggestions or opinions
Yikes, that's not good. Don't let anyone tell you that it doesn't matter because the foam won't absorb water, because it will over time...
Logstor does carry stuff for splicing tho, although it's not cheap
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Dont guess I would have to move it, what kind of cost to splice it
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Dont guess I would have to move it, what kind of cost to splice it
I would bet it is less costly to move the stove closer to make up the distance. ;) Splicing is costly and introduces a potential failure point in the future (installing a continuous run of Logstor pipe underground in the first place is to avoid any connections, couplings, splicing, etc.). Ground shifts over time so I would recommend moving the stove itself. ;)